Hopstand, no dry hop

[BassBeer]

Curious if anyone's skipped dry hopping when doing a significant hopstand, and what were your results like? I have a brew fermenting right now that used 5.5 oz various American hops in a 175F hopstand for an hour. Gravity sample (after 10 days) has huge aroma and flavor, so I'm considering forgoing the dry hop. This is a relatively low gravity (5.2%), sessionable red IPA. I always dry hop out of habit but seems like the beer could be great without it. Any input appreciated. Thanks!

 

[soccerdad]

I've read about it (favorable comments), but not tried it (yet). Would love to hear others experiences.

 

[IslandLizard]

Extended hop stands are great for lasting flavor and aroma. However, some of the aroma compounds are being stripped out during fermentation and cold crashing. A dry hop will replenish those while adding some more very volatile compounds the hop stand blew off.

So I would still do a dry hop if you're after that in the face aroma suitable for those styles.

 

[bbrim]

My Pale Ale recipe that I've been gradually tweaking has a 4 oz hop stand and no dry hopping. It has a huge hop flavor and a nice aroma but you have to put your nose to the glass to the aroma. It's not like Enjoy By where you can smell hops as soon as you open the bottle.
I like to maintain some balance in a pale ale and I think foregoing the dry hopping has helped maintain some focus on the malt for me. It you want huge aroma you definitely want to dry hop. The hop stand is awesome and I will continue using it but I really think there is no way to substitute for dry hopping, if that is what you want out of a beer.

 

[wobdee]

You should brew that same recipe sometime and take that 5.5 oz of flame out hops and instead put it in your mash. I bet you get similar results.

 

[nutty_gnome]

I was so excited about a significant late addition of falconer's flight added to a pale ale. Throughout fermentation, the odors from the bucket were amazing, so rich and hoppy! I figured I wouldn't need a dry hop... I can smell these hops from the blow-off tube! Well, after kegging, there was little to no aroma. The beer tasted fine, it had the falconer's flight flavor, but didn't have the strong aromas I was going for. I think dry hopping would have fixed that.

 

[Calder]

You should brew that same recipe sometime and take that 5.5 oz of flame out hops and instead put it in your mash. I bet you get similar results.

I've never tried it, but read in many places that you get very little from mash hopping, and that it is basically a waste of hops. You seem to be saying something very different from everyone else. Please elaborate on your experience.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I have experience mash hopping. It is a great thing to do if you have tons and tons of hops you just want to burn up. I mash hopped an IPA and it turned out drinkable but not the best. I added ALL of my flavor and aroma hops into the mash and then multiplied by 1.5. I bittered like normal an dryhopped like normal. It took much longer to "mature" and taste like an IPA. In the end it worked out okay but I am not going to do it again. It was fun to try.

When you are doing a hop stand keep in mind the awesome oil myrcene. It is what gives american hops their kick when dry hopping. The magic number for myrcene is 147ºF. Below 147 and you'll extract a lot it myrcene without volatilizing it off. Above that and you degrade the oil right out the top of the kettle. I don't think there is a suitable replacement for dry hopping. I have tried a few hopping techniques with the hope to avoid dry hopping but at the end of the day I keep dry hopping. It is the only way to get that flavor. In fact, I prefer to double dry hop. That is controversial as well but it has proven to be successful for some fairly famous brewers. So If it works for them I am okay following suit.

 

[Calder]

In fact, I prefer to double dry hop. That is controversial as well but it has proven to be successful for some fairly famous brewers. So If it works for them I am okay following suit.

You mean I am not alone!?! It may well work, I am struggling to understand why.

 

[wobdee]

I've never tried it, but read in many places that you get very little from mash hopping, and that it is basically a waste of hops. You seem to be saying something very different from everyone else. Please elaborate on your experience.

I brew 2.5 gal BIAB batches and I've done IPA' s with 3 oz of mash hops plus one 60 min bittering addition and have gotten plenty of hop flavor and aroma. Many in my club couldn't believe I got that much from mash hopping but it seems to work for me. I don't think you can get as good aroma as dry hopping but its there.

I was doing a step mash starting at 145 for 45 min then raising to 158 for another 30 min. I thing the lower mash temps help release more of those flavor/aroma hop oils than a hotter after boil hop stand and it also cuts down brew day time.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

You mean I am not alone!?! It may well work, I am struggling to understand why.

This is a bit off the original topic but not too far.

I think it has to do with hop surface ratio to beer. If you add smaller amounts of hops multiple times then the beer can absorb all the oils better. There is a ceiling however. It is much like ibus. You could out enough hops into the kettle to get up to a predicted 1000ibu, but do you really have 1000 ibu? Probably not.

For some of the hoppier beers that are made commercially the brewers are dry hopping at around 1.5#/bbl. If you scale that linearly then you have about 4oz per 5gal batch.

The other thing to note is time and temperature. At room temp the majority of the oil extraction in dry hopping occurs in the first 24 hours. After 72 hors there isn't really any difference in what you perceive. This, of course, assumes that the hops are exposed to the beer effectively so that they can impart the awese myrcene oils to our beer brewed the easy way.

 

[zendog]

I experimented once with hop stand / no dry hop and can report that the aroma was very lacking compared to when I dry hop. I'm convinced dry hopping is crucial for any hop-forward beer.

 

[OZZ]

I experimented once with hop stand / no dry hop and can report that the aroma was very lacking compared to when I dry hop. I'm convinced dry hopping is crucial for any hop-forward beer.

Which begs the question, why hop stand at all? I've been researching hop stands a lot over the last few days and i m starting to think people just like making things more complicated than it needs to be.

Im thinking maybe Boil/bitter additions, a small amount of 5 or 10 minute additions and an appropriate dry hop is the way to go. Hell maybe all that's needed is just the boil and dry hop additions!

 

[Calder]

I experimented once with hop stand / no dry hop and can report that the aroma was very lacking compared to when I dry hop. I'm convinced dry hopping is crucial for any hop-forward beer.

Explain SNPA, it doesn't have any dry hops.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Explain SNPA, it doesn't have any dry hops.

Do you consider SNPA a hop forward beer?

FWIW, I do not.

 

[zendog]

I can't speak for SNPA methods, but my results show I need dry hopping for good aroma. I suppose many factors play into what constitutes good aroma including freshness/amount of hops, yeast strain, fermentation conditions, water profile, etc. I suggest people do side-by-side trials to see what works.

Incidentally, I know a brewer who brewed for Rock Bottom when they did their hop stand vs. dry hop experiments (as explained in the "Hops" book). He doesn't believe hop stands provide much benefit and does not perform them at his current brewery. His IPA's are top-notch.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I love the "pale ale" I made with a Hopstand no dry hop. Flavor is fantastic, and that matters much more to me than smelling hops when I crack the bottle.
I find that Dry hopping imparts a grassy harsh flavor to the beer that I do not prefer, so I will likely be doing 5 min additions and hop stands for my "hoppier" beers. That's just me though, I'm no hop head...

 

[ArcLight]

You should brew that same recipe sometime and take that 5.5 oz of flame out hops and instead put it in your mash. I bet you get similar results.

I very much doubt that. You will lose all the aroma and probably some of the flavor.
First Wort Hopping will affect the bitterness but the volatile compounds in the hops will be boiled away after an hour of boiling. Mash hopping will be even worse as the hops oils will coat the grain.

 

[cantrell00]

I very much doubt that. You will lose all the aroma and probably some of the flavor.

I agree. Mash hopping seemed to have minimal impact the few times I have done it.

 

[ArcLight]

Which begs the question, why hop stand at all? I've been researching hop stands a lot over the last few days and i m starting to think people just like making things more complicated than it needs to be.

Im thinking maybe Boil/bitter additions, a small amount of 5 or 10 minute additions and an appropriate dry hop is the way to go. Hell maybe all that's needed is just the boil and dry hop additions!

Because the flavor profile is different than just dry hopping.
There is plenty of literature around on what people like about hop stands.

Also, depending on the temperature and duration the hop stand will add some bittering.

 

[Schecter]

I do hopstands because it gives me longer to drink beer with beer and keeps me away from my pregnant wife

 

[1977Brewer]

I agree. Mash hopping seemed to have minimal impact the few times I have done it.

I can't mash hop because then my dogs get nothing.

 

[Kiichi]

Hopstand is no full substitute for dryhopping. What it does is impart a lot of flavor. Flavor that lasts too. It also does add some aroma, but not as much, though what it delivers is very clean and defined. Furthermore different flavors are put up front, which can be fun. I was able to give a Sorachi Ace single hop brew to people who usually pick it out of anything and hate it, just cause I managed to avoid the flavor components due to my different hop schedule.

I personally go very well with bittering, hop stand, and then a bit of dryhop just to freshen things up. This way I get a flavorful, fresh, and complex brew I feel.

Definetly try hopstands, lovely things those. Best general advice on the details and reasons for me is this https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands
Base my technique on it.