Hops in Munich Dunkel

[bottlenose]

I've brewed several Dunkels, with a similar basic recipe but when comparing against good commercial examples I've been underwhelmed by the aroma of the home brewed version. An appropriate amount (1/2 or 1 oz) of aroma hops at some point in the last 10 minutes seems the logical next try, but I've yet to see a home brew recipe with this amount of late hops for a dunkel. Has anyone been able to nail the aroma of, say, Ayinger's dunkel?

For reference, my basic recipe has been mostly German Munich malt, a few oz. of Weyerman Carafa special (dehusked) for color, and pilsner as needed to get the gravity right. Aside from bittering, hops have been 1/2 oz tradition at 10 min or 1/2 oz hersbrucker hallertau at both 10 and 5 min. I was hoping that second version would give the necessary aroma but even that came out very neutral.

Thanks.

 

[BigEd]

Dunkels really aren't known for much in the way of hop flavor or aroma. This beer is more of a dark Oktoberfest. If you want late hops that's fine but I'd suggest just using a bittering addition and one small addition at 15/20 minutes for a little hop presence that won't get in the way of the malt.

 

[phenry]

Maybe try a decoction mash or using some Melanoidin malt? Of all the Munich Dunkels I've had I really don't think the secret lies in the hopping. Anything to help increase the maltiness would be my guess to get that wow factor.

I have yet to brew a Munich Dunkel, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I am a firm believer that a single or double decoction can work wonders for malt-forward beers though.

 

[BigEd]

bottlenose, I agree with phenry on the decoction. FWIW here is my basic dunkel recipe:

Munich Dunkel
10 Gallons

13.5 lbs Munich malt
3.5 lbs Pilsner malt
.375 lb Carafa II malt
.75 lb CaraFoam malt

Decoction mash; 128F, 148F, 168F mashout

1 oz Spalt + 1 oz Saaz @ 60 minutes
1 oz Spalt @ 20 minutes

Estimated OG 1.050, IBU 24

White Labs WLP-838 Southern German Yeast

 

[AnOldUR]

My Munich Dunkel is a SMaSH (kind'a because I home toast 1 1/2 lbs of the Munich) using 10L Munich and Tettnang hops. But like others have said, I think the right mash schedule makes a difference. Here's one I've used.

Step mash:
20 min @ 104 dgrs (infusion)
30 min @ 140 dgrs (infusion)
60 min @ 154 dgrs (decoction)
15 min @ 168 dgrs (decoction)

 

[bottlenose]

Should have mentioned, both tries used triple decoction, so the maltiness should be there. Might toss in a little melanoidin next time.

My guess is that, if using magnum for bittering, more late noble hops than I'm using might be needed.

 

[phenry]

Just a few things to maybe think about trying different. Still, my advice = grain of salt.
1) Try bittering with noble hops, either for the duration of the boil or just with FWH. I've only just started playing around with this, so the jury is still out on that one for me.
2) Water maybe? Definitely favor chloride and if you have high sulfate water, reduce that through dilution.
3) Try a different yeast? I know there isn't a whole lot of character drawn from lager yeast, but that may be something worth exploring?

 

[bottlenose]

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'll have to experiment.

Does much hop flavor or aroma carry over if the hop is used for boiling? It doesn't seem like it should, though I brewed a helles with all noble hops a few weeks ago as an experiment.

As for yeast, I've been using WLP833 on account of it supposedly being Ayinger's yeast (and that they make an excellent dunkel).

 

[944play]

Does much hop flavor or aroma carry over if the hop is used for boiling?

Yes. The most volatile stuff goes away as the wort boils, of course, but there are lots of flavor-active compounds in hops that aren't quite so volatile. Bitter is a flavor, for example.