Ayinger Dunkel Clone?

[mashdar]

I just had the Ayinger dunkel on tap (in Gainesville, FL). I'd never had it before. Wow. Possibly the best beer I've ever had. I bought a few 500ml bottles of it at the local grocery to take home. Hopefully the bottle is as good.

I looked around for recipes, and saw a couple, but none seemed to have a lot of iteration/comments/feedback/etc.

Has anyone gone on this adventure and have any pointers or suggested recipe?

The beer had such a distinct "fresh wort" aroma. I might be crazy, but I may try adding some fresh wort late in fermentation like you do with fruit, to try to retain that aroma. Maybe even crank the pressure up at that point.

I see wlp 833 mentioned here and there.

 

[huckdavidson]

From what I understand you'll need to look into implementing a "LODO" or low dissolved oxygen process on both the hot and cold sides to produce such a beer.

 

[Yesfan]

I don't see Ayinger around my area much. What I tried, I loved it.

Don't know if you're a BrewingTV fan, but back in their heyday Michael Dawson did a double decoction episode where he brewed a Munich dunkel. It's not an Ayinger clone, but I think his dunkel was inspired by it. If you can't find the recipe and you're interested, I can post it here if it's allowed.

 

[jcav]

Munich Dunkel is one of my favorite styles. If you want to get close definitely use WLP 833 German Bock, it is Ayinger's yeast.

John

 

[jcav]

This is not an Ayinger clone but instead a clone of "Blue Stallion's" Dunkel, which is a very good beer that is a favorite in Lexington Kentucky and voted one of Lexington's best beers. I got this recipe fron "Brew Your Own" magazine and I tweaked it to my effciency and I made mine 4.8% ABV. It turned out fantastic and my family and friends request this beer often. The one I made on my system in my opinion was really a "next level beer". The most important part is the yeast. I used Global L13 and made a starter (like I always do). Keep the beer at 52 degrees for most of the fermentation and then let it creep up to 60 degrees or so to finish and clean up. If your process and sanitation are very good this will make an exceptional beer.


Blue Stallion From Brew Your Own
======================

(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.053 FG = 1.012
IBU = 25 SRM = 15 ABV = 5.4%

A single infusion-mashed Munich dunkel on the light side of the color spectrum with rich, sweet aroma notes, bready flavors, and a hint of caramel/toffee.

Ingredients
8.25 lbs. (3.7 kg) German Munich II malt (8 °L)
1.25 lbs. (0.57 kg) pale malt
14 oz. (397 g) CaraAmber® malt (26 °L)
14 oz. (397 g) CaraMunich® III malt (56 °L)
8 oz. (227 g) dextrin malt
4.9 AAU Hallertau Magnum hops (60 min.) (0.35 oz./10 g at 14% alpha acids)
2.1 AAU Hallertau Magnum hops (20 min.) (0.15 oz./4 g at 14% alpha acids)
0.25 oz. (7 g) Hallertau Mittelfrüh hops (0 min.)
SafLager W-34/70, Imperial Yeast L13 (Global), White Labs WLP830 (German Lager), Omega OYL114 (Bayern Lager), or Wyeast WY2124 (Bohemian Lager) yeast
¾ cup corn sugar (if priming)

Step by Step
Build your water profile to an “amber balanced” one with a 75:60 ppm sulfate:chloride while also making sure your mash pH is between 5.2 and 5.4. Mill all the grain and add 3.2 gallons (12.2 L) of strike water to achieve a mash temperature of 152 °F (67 °C). Hold temperature for 60 minutes. Raise mash temperature to 168 °F (76 °C) for mashout, if possible. Then start a 15-minute vorlauf. Collect 5.7 gallons (21.6 L) of wort into your kettle. Bring wort to a boil and boil for 60 minutes, making the hop additions accordingly. Add any finings such as Irish moss, Whirlfloc®, or Koppakleer®, if desired, in the last 5–10 minutes of the boil.

At the end of the boil, whirlpool, then let settle for 15 minutes. Cool wort and send to your fermenter. Pitch more yeast (about double) than you would a traditional ale targeting about 1.5 million cells per mL degree Plato. Oxygenate thoroughly if using a liquid yeast strain. Ferment at 52 °F (11 °C) for the first two days and then slowly raise the temperature to 60 °F (16 °C).

After terminal gravity is reached and there is no presence of diacetyl, you may cool down to 52 °F (11 °C) . . . this is a good opportunity to harvest yeast to use again for another batch. If not harvesting, then cold crash down to 34 °F (1 °C) and hold for a minimum of 30 days. After approximately 30 days, remove all of the yeast from the bottom of the fermenter and add a clarifying agent such as Biofine® or gelatin. Let beer clarify for a few days then keg or bottle. Bottle with priming sugar or force carbonate the serving keg to 2.7 volumes of CO2.

 

[mashdar]

After terminal gravity is reached and there is no presence of diacetyl, you may cool down to 52 °F (11 °C) . . . this is a good opportunity to harvest yeast to use again for another batch. If not harvesting, then cold crash down to 34 °F (1 °C) and hold for a minimum of 30 days.

Thanks very much! I appreciate the detail re water etc.

Curious why you wouldn't harvest after cold crash? Just the timing?

 

[mashdar]

I don't see Ayinger around my area much. What I tried, I loved it.

Don't know if you're a BrewingTV fan, but back in their heyday Michael Dawson did a double decoction episode where he brewed a Munich dunkel. It's not an Ayinger clone, but I think his dunkel was inspired by it. If you can't find the recipe and you're interested, I can post it here if it's allowed.

I'm not familiar with BrewingTV, but I'll definitely check this one out. Is it associated with NB? I think I found it?
Recipe Schluss Dunkel-Kellerbier Recipe
Video

edit: Transcribing recipe for future reference in the event of link rot. Removing some info re process for readability.
10.5 gallons, all-grain Target OG: 1.056
- 16.5 lbs Munich Malt
- 0.75 lbs Weyermann CaraFoam
- 0.75 lbs Melanoidin malt
- 0.5 lbs Weyermann CaraAroma
- 0.25 lbs Weyermann CaraFa III

Dough in at 95 F
Protein rest - 122 F
Decoction 1
Sacch' rest 1 - 148 F
Decoction 2
Sacch' rest 2 - 158 F
Mash out
2 oz German Tradition (pellet) @ FWH
Boil

WLP833 German Bock lager

10 days @ 55 F
rack to carboy, lager ~ 6 wks

(or for kellerbier, rack to keg, store cool ~ 10 days, then tap, serve young)

 

[mashdar]

Sinamar... Looks interesting. Carafa LME. I wonder if adding it post-fermentation might leave some fresh wort aroma.

Adding a couple of other links to various recipes:

Someone called The Beerery on AHA (2015)
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=22740.msg394729#msg394729The people on AHA at the time took this recipe pretty seriously, but I don't know that user. Denny was going to look for a recipe he made, but doesn't look like he ever found it. People sounded very sure about sinamar use. Author does LoDO. Transcription (abridged):
40% Light Munich
40% Dark Munich
14% pilsner (not super light)
5% caramunich II
1% carafa II ( regular old carafa)
sinamar to 15srm or about
21ibu noble at 60 min
Soft boil, 60 minutes

BYO Tess and Mark Szamatulski (2001), extract recipe w/ all grain at bottom
https://byo.com/recipe/brasserie-ayinger-altbairisch-dunkel-clone/This recipe doesn't look super close at first blush, but I'm keeping everything I can find in mind.

Kai's Dunkel. Not a clone, but a worthwhile reference. (2008)
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dunkel

 

[Red over White]

I don't have much in the way of help for your recipe, but I can offer this. I brew mostly macro German and American lagers and the thing that helped me get to the next level was to emulate "their" process as much as possible from soup to nuts. Trying to make a product with a completely different process, taste exactly like theirs is virtually an impossible task. Look into how they treat their liquor, mash process, how much static pressure their fermenters have before spunding, etc... Copying their professional methods on a tiny scale with fresh ingredients and tight controls will get you extremely close. It's very rewarding when you start to get the results you have been chasing. Best of luck in your quest.

 

[jcav]

Thanks very much! I appreciate the detail re water etc.

Curious why you wouldn't harvest after cold crash? Just the timing?

This was what was written in the article. I just pasted the whole recipe and what was written in the article. You can harvest yeast after cold crashing if you want. The article's way is just another way of doing it. Good luck on your brewing endeavors!

John

 

[Yesfan]

I'm not familiar with BrewingTV, but I'll definitely check this one out. Is it associated with NB? I think I found it?
Recipe Schluss Dunkel-Kellerbier Recipe
Video

edit: Transcribing recipe for future reference in the event of link rot. Removing some info re process for readability.
10.5 gallons, all-grain Target OG: 1.056
- 16.5 lbs Munich Malt
- 0.75 lbs Weyermann CaraFoam
- 0.75 lbs Melanoidin malt
- 0.5 lbs Weyermann CaraAroma
- 0.25 lbs Weyermann CaraFa III

Dough in at 95 F
Protein rest - 122 F
Decoction 1
Sacch' rest 1 - 148 F
Decoction 2
Sacch' rest 2 - 158 F
Mash out
2 oz German Tradition (pellet) @ FWH
Boil

WLP833 German Bock lager

10 days @ 55 F
rack to carboy, lager ~ 6 wks

(or for kellerbier, rack to keg, store cool ~ 10 days, then tap, serve young)

Yep. They were (still are) associated with Northern Brewer. It's not the same now as it was back in the day, but Chip Walton's return to NB has made it a bit better. I prefer Chip on Chop & Brew over BTV nowadays.

 

[hottpeper13]

I can't do LODO per say but use BTB and best practices to limit HSA. I get really close using a 2 step decoction and keg conditioning with spiece( I pressure can the wort)

 

[mashdar]

I can't do LODO per say but use BTB and best practices to limit HSA. I get really close using a 2 step decoction and keg conditioning with spiece( I pressure can the wort)

Could you elaborate re "BTB" and "spiece"? I'm afraid I don't know those terms. Thanks!

 

[hottpeper13]

Brew tab B is an oxygen remover of sorts.I use 1/4 tps in the mash to help with hot side aeration. Spiece is the German word for saved wort to use instead of sugar(cause they can't use sugar) in bottling and keg conditioning. It's all about keeping O2 out except at yeast pitch.

 

[mashdar]

Brew tab B is an oxygen remover of sorts.I use 1/4 tps in the mash to help with hot side aeration. Spiece is the German word for saved wort to use instead of sugar(cause they can't use sugar) in bottling and keg conditioning. It's all about keeping O2 out except at yeast pitch.

Do you freeze the spiece wort? Or package when brewing a new batch?

 

[Red over White]

I don't pressure can wort like hottpeper13, but I do freeze wort regularly to be used again quickly. I let my wort settle after chilling for 45 mins and run off the first cloudy 2-3 qts in a sanitized beer pitcher. I cover with foil and immediately chill in the refrigerator. I then almost fill a sanitized 1 liter pet bottle with the cold upper cleared wort and immediately freeze, take an old skool hydrometer reading next and discard the balance. Immediately freezing boiled hopped wort carries very little spoilage risk, especially if quickly thawed and boiled again before reuse. This frozen wort is great for spiece or typically for me free vitality starters to jump start dry yeast on brew day.

 

[mashdar]

One more question: How are you getting the new wort into the serving vessel? I'm picturing a pump/syphon into purged keg, followed by a closed transfer of fermented beer.

Seems like a pump could throw a bunch of air if not careful. I guess you just don't go for 100%?

Not sure how easy it is to purge an autosyphon+tube. I guess with the racking cane submerged and a QD on the other end it will hold?

Or are you putting the wort into the fermenter pre-transfer to let the yeast wake up?

 

[hottpeper13]

I pressure can the wort that I use for conditioning and freeze the stuff for starters. I don't do closed transfers and tilt the keg or bucket then gently pour in.

 

[Red over White]

One more question: How are you getting the new wort into the serving vessel? I'm picturing a pump/syphon into purged keg, followed by a closed transfer of fermented beer.

Seems like a pump could throw a bunch of air if not careful. I guess you just don't go for 100%?

Not sure how easy it is to purge an autosyphon+tube. I guess with the racking cane submerged and a QD on the other end it will hold?

Or are you putting the wort into the fermenter pre-transfer to let the yeast wake up?

I use a carb tee and a pet bottle to get any liquid into a purged keg. I will typically add sodium metabisulfite to the liquid and fully purge the tiny headspace of the pet bottle and carb tee as a screw them together. With this method, you can do it whenever it's convenient.

Often times I will hold off immediately cleaning my all rounder fermenters for even a couple days if I can see a need for co2 for xfers and such. My now empty all rounders have 8 gals of co2 at 20-25 psi. I try to diligently use this wonderful, free pure co2 for things around the brewery like pushing sanitizer from freshly cleaned kegs and the like.

 

[mashdar]

One more thread and recipe to add to the list. OP liked result, but no one else appears to have brewed it. OP noted some head retention issues.

This recipe seems similar to the Beerery recipe (above), but only 1 munich, using carafa III instead of II + sinimar, a touch of caramunich, and sour malt instead of acid adjustment (assumed).

https://brews-bros.com/topic/98650-ayinger-altbairisch-dunkel-clone-lets-figure-it-out/page-2
Recipe transcribed with adjustments based on subsequent comments by OP. Adjusted to 5 gallons.

OG: 1.052
FG: 1.012
SRM: 16.2
IBU: 24.4

Water:
Calcium 30 ppm
Magnesium 3 ppm
Sodium 29 ppm
Sulfate 14 ppm
Chloride 68 ppm
Bicarbonate 27 ppm

7 lbs munich malt (7L Bestmalz)
1.75 lbs pilsen
3.5 oz carafa spec iii
2 oz caramunich
6 oz acid malt

mashed at 148F for 60min
stepped up to 158F and left overnight

0.34 oz magnum 12.1%AA for 60 mins
0.5 oz hallertau MF 3.9%AA 60 mins
0.5 oz hallertau MF 3.9%AA 10 mins

WL 833 (375B cells)
Start at 48F.
Slowly rise to 52F by 3 day 3.
On day 4, raise temp to 60F.
FG 1.012 in 7 days.

 

[mashdar]

Just tried a first pass at this.

I only used Carafa II for darkening. 4oz in 5gal. I threw it in for the whole mash. Tasting the hydrometer sample on brew day, it's too roasty.

We'll see if that mellows out, but I suspect attempt #2 will mix Carafa I and II and add the late in mash.

 

[lmaa]

I just had the Ayinger dunkel on tap.

Use to live close to the Ayinger brewery, did a few tours collected a few glasses of various sizes, never heard of their Dunkel beer. Their beer is considered not that good. Then with over 1500 breweries in a country 2.5 times the size of Florida you can be picky.

I just had the Ayinger dunkel on tap (in Gainesville, FL). I'd never had it before. Wow. Possibly the best beer I've ever had. I bought a few 500ml bottles of it at the local grocery to take home. Hopefully the bottle is as good.

I looked around for recipes, and saw a couple, but none seemed to have a lot of iteration/comments/feedback/etc.

Has anyone gone on this adventure and have any pointers or suggested recipe?

The beer had such a distinct "fresh wort" aroma. I might be crazy, but I may try adding some fresh wort late in fermentation like you do with fruit, to try to retain that aroma. Maybe even crank the pressure up at that point.

I see wlp 833 mentioned here and there.

 

[mashdar]

Use to live close to the Ayinger brewery

Were you there in the last ~25 years? I believe I read they completely overhauled the brewery at some point.

Their beer is considered not that good.

Hmm. I don't look at the various beer ratings much, but your note is in contrast to what appears to be overwhelming appreciation for a number of their beers. But that's probably because you were comparing fresh beers, and the ratings are mostly mass market bottles. That surely skews things in all kinds of ways!

In any case, it was a treat for me, stuck in the land of choco-vanilla berry lacto breakfast cereal sour imperial stouts. (edit: should have said IPA. It's hard enough finding stouts, I'd settle for one with ten hyphens in the name.)

 

[rmr9]

Just tried a first pass at this.

I only used Carafa II for darkening. 4oz in 5gal. I threw it in for the whole mash. Tasting the hydrometer sample on brew day, it's too roasty.

We'll see if that mellows out, but I suspect attempt #2 will mix Carafa I and II and add the late in mash.

Did you use carafa ii special or just regular carafa ii? The special has the husk removed so would be less roasty

 

[mashdar]

Did you use carafa ii special or just regular carafa ii? The special has the husk removed so would be less roasty

Special. Apologies, I've never used it before and didn't realize there was a non-dehusked (husked?) option! I'll take note in the future.

I'm hoping what I was tasting is actually tiny particles that will precipitate. I suspect some of the toasted coffee will survive, though. It reminds me roughly of crisp brown malt.

 

[lmaa]

Were you there in the last ~25 years? I believe I read they completely overhauled the brewery at some point.

I lived about 15 km from Aying for about 20 years. Everyone has their own taste, I have dank a few kegs of their Ayinger Helles, its drinkable not that good; but; Way better than Coors or Bud which I am certain have been recycles a couple times before being bottled. With 1500 breweries in the country there is enough beer going around that almost everyone finds a brand or two that they prefer and a brand or two that they avoid at all cost. I preferred Franzikaner Hefeweizen which is now Spaten-Franziskaner-Bräu. The Spaten brand had a good Helles, Hacker-Pschorr has a good Helles and a fair Hefeweizen. Kulmbacher Brewery had a Klumulator at 26% the Arnald Schwarzeneger of beer. If you were suicidel you drink a few of those. I stay away from dunkels bier, they act as pipe cleaners on me and work without warning.
I personally don't care what you like or drink as long as it doesn't come out of my glass.

 

[mashdar]

I preferred Franzikaner Hefeweizen

Is that the "one meal" beer? I had a roommate in college that had lived in Germany for a while and always talked about some Franziskaner beer he drank a lot of.

 

[lmaa]

Is that the "one meal" beer? I had a roommate in college that had lived in Germany for a while and always talked about some Franziskaner beer he drank a lot of.

I think you could call it that. That beer finishes it brew process in the bottle, There is a layer of Hefe (yeast) at the bottom. When you fill your class leave about 1cm of beer in the bottle. Swish this around to loosen the sediment, that yeast is poured into the glass, that is considered as food. If you drank enough you might be able to skip meals, if you could walk.
I am not sure if the laws still apply, beer was taxed under two different laws depending on how it was brewed or finished. If the yeast was in the bottle it was considered food and taxed as a food product, if it was filtered it was taxed as a beverage. In Barvaria it is considerd food along with Leberkäse or Bayrischer Schweinebraten.
I had to include those links, it made me hungry thinking about.

 

[mashdar]

Almost done lagering the first try. The Carafa Special 2 left a distinct chocolate note (think tootsie roll) that is not in the real thing. The roast flavor did drop out while cold conditioning. This was 4oz in 5gal to hit ~15.5 srm

I'm going to try Carafa Special 1 for the next batch.

The solution may be to use a blend, but having never used them before, I'll use this as a chance to learn what they taste like.

I may have to give sinamar a try, but it appears not well distributed.