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Ridire

Ridire

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Who among ye believes that their homebrew is as good as most craft beer bought at the bottle shop? Honest assessment...
 
I think, after some time, my Christmas Porter last year was of a commercial caliber...maybe. Other than that, I will be honest and say "no" to this question. I've had commercial beer worse than anything I've ever brewed (except that one IPA...yuck) but if I'm comparing it to a real brewery..."no".
 
I've brewed some real crap, sure. Not because there was anything wrong with the process but solely in that the combination of this and that did not taste good to me. Otherwise, I'd say that most of my standard recipes are as good as anything I can get at the bottle shop.
 
I am still fairly new to brewing (2 years/ 1 year AG) but I would say I have a few beers that would compete with commercial beers. All of my other beers still show that I am a noobie.
 
homebrew57 said:
I am still fairly new to brewing (2 years/ 1 year AG) but I would say I have a few beers that would compete with commercial beers. All of my other beers still show that I am a noobie.
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I'm about 1.5 years in, so I'm not discouraged. But I really, really want to brew stuff that make me say, "hell, I don't need to go to the store to buy beer anymore". That is the goal.
 
I'm surprised, are you sure your not judging yourself too harsh? Have you tried a few competitions? No matter how much people told me they liked me beer and how much they drank it, it didn't mean as much as the feedback and medals I won with it.

Since we are being honest, I'd like to go ahead and say my first 30 batches or so just weren't any good. Infections, bad recipe ideas, poor temp control, not knowing my system, being too stubborn to admit I didn't know anything about brewing, and then after learning and reading books continuously ignoring that information. I'm the kinda guy, I gotta try it for myself. Too damn stupid to just call a spade a spade. The only real good thing that came out of all that was learning how fun and easy lagering is, even if you don't have a place to lager or can't get into the 50s with regular temp control.

I've had a string of batches lately that were unpredictable and tasted way too hoppy. I just learned mere minutes ago that my scale is completely off. I just used 7 ounces of hops in a recipe that called for 4!! So I'll order a new scale this evening and as my dad always says "keep on keepin on". My journey in homebrewing should be titled something like "100 Ways to Ruin You Beer" or "Is The Government Trying to Brew Beer Now?". Simply because I've had so many problems. SWMBO says it's why I'm so attracted to brewing. She always says I can't quit doing something until I master it. I'm not sure how true that is because some things, like homebrewing, or playing the guitar, you never reaallyyyyy master.
 
estricklin said:
I'm surprised, are you sure your not judging yourself too harsh? Have you tried a few competitions? No matter how much people told me they liked me beer and how much they drank it, it didn't mean as much as the feedback and medals I won with it.

Since we are being honest, I'd like to go ahead and say my first 30 batches or so just weren't any good. Infections, bad recipe ideas, poor temp control, not knowing my system, being too stubborn to admit I didn't know anything about brewing, and then after learning and reading books continuously ignoring that information. I'm the kinda guy, I gotta try it for myself. Too damn stupid to just call a spade a spade. The only real good thing that came out of all that was learning how fun and easy lagering is, even if you don't have a place to lager or can't get into the 50s with regular temp control.

I've had a string of batches lately that were unpredictable and tasted way too hoppy. I just learned mere minutes ago that my scale is completely off. I just used 7 ounces of hops in a recipe that called for 4!! So I'll order a new scale this evening and as my dad always says "keep on keepin on". My journey in homebrewing should be titled something like "100 Ways to Ruin You Beer" or "Is The Government Trying to Brew Beer Now?". Simply because I've had so many problems. SWMBO says it's why I'm so attracted to brewing. She always says I can't quit doing something until I master it. I'm not sure how true that is because some things, like homebrewing, or playing the guitar, you never reaallyyyyy master.
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I only have about 12-13 batches under my belt (started last January). I entered my blonde into the same comp two years in a row to see if there is different feedback after I had more experience. I think it got a 27 or 28 last year. This year...I'll know in a few weeks. I did change a few things in this year's (most notably, the water).
 
Ridire said:
I only have about 12-13 batches under my belt (started last January). I entered my blonde into the same comp two years in a row to see if there is different feedback after I had more experience. I think it got a 27 or 28 last year. This year...I'll know in a few weeks. I did change a few things in this year's (most notably, the water).
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Heck that's not a bad score anyway, and those are real beer judges drinkin that stuff.

I don't mean to ramble on and on but I did want to say one more thing; if you haven't brewed that great batch yet, it e'll happen if you just keep on brewing. And then, another great batch, and pretty soon you'll have a lot more "greats" than "not so greats". I got so frustrated at one point when I was still somewhat of a beginner that I quit brewing for 6 months, WORST mistake I ever made in homebrewing. I let a few bad batches get me down when I should have just kept working on my process and recipes.
 
Meh, I'm usually my own harshest critic. My beers have always been "drinkable" and the last few years I would say they almost all been "damn, that's good", but only a few that I have brewed over the years have made me think "yeah, that's better than store-bought".
 
Darwin18 said:
There's a lot of ugly baby syndrome out there. If you think your beer is commercial grade then send it off to a competition and see how it fares....
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This is very true.

I brew a lot and only feel like about maybe half of my beers are really good. And very few, I would describe, as great. It's a learning process and no one brews great beer every time. But brewing good beer every time is doable. Greatness is what we all strive for.
 
I make all kinds of beers. Good, bad, and in between. Sometimes it depends on how I am feeling that day, the temperature, the food I'm eating, who knows. I've had a lot of "Ok" craft beer, but I've had some from companies that regularly makes me want to buy it again.

I have a lot more brewing to do. Hopefully when I get my system built and a regular process in place, I can focus on the recipe more and really nail the recipe and water and get more consistent.
 
Oh, and be warned: Not every competition returns useful or accurate information. Take them with a grain of salt and look for consistent remarks spanning several competitions if you can. Judges are human and from experience I know that inexperienced judges are often used to fill a need, and they are ALL human.

That said, competitions are still one of the best ways to get unbiased feedback on your beers.
 
I've only brewed one batch that I was only "Meh" about. I'd never had that style before, it sounded interesting, so I brewed it. (Patersbier) Friends who have had that style before said it was consistent with the style, though, so I won't call it bad. I just wasn't hot on it, though I drank it all just the same. Other than that, to paraphrase Bert from Mary Poppins in the song Pavement Artist (to the tune of Chim Chim Cheree), "I brews what I likes and I likes what I brew." It's certainly better than anything out of BMC, and better than many craft beers I've purchased, and friends who've tried my brews either liked them or only told me so because they didn't want to hurt my feelings, but I really don't worry about that...
 
There is a difference between commercial grade beer and bjcp competition winning beer.
Many of the beers I enjoy most wouldn't fare well at a bjcp comp because they don't fit into the cut and dried framework of the bjcp style guide.
 
My beer is generally as good or better than commercial beer. BUT- there are some mediocre craft beers out there. :D

I've been brewing for a LONG time. It's been only in the last 6-7 years that I have gone from "good" beer to better than that. Fermentation temperature control, water, yeast pitching rates, good solid recipes, and technique all work together to make it happen. I don't know how many batches I've made- but it's definitely over 300.

Sometimes practice makes perfect- and although none are perfect, I feel competent and confidant about them. It takes time, effort, and perseverence. So keep at at!
 
I've had a few friends say that our beer is buy-able. I definitely think the Kolsch we brewed a while back was high enough quality that people would buy it. It's something I honestly would have sent into a competition (but we drank it all instead). My most recent IPA was pretty good, but it just fell flat in the back end, which wasn't good enough for me. You could taste the bite coming, but it never actually got there :(

Aside from those, my beers still need a lot of work.

My friend and I are still nailing down our issues, but I think the stir plate we bought recently will solve our issues. We'll know soon. We used it for the first time on our biiiiiiiiiiiiiig RIS (SG 1.108, was at 1.032 last I checked, going down still). That won't be ready until December, but I have high hopes. If it's good as we hope, we might try to send it in.


A good example of me needing work: My most recent Irish red is a damn good Dubbel xD
 
I'm about 15 months and 44 batches in. Out of those (actually out of 42 - 2 are still conditioning), I would say 6 or 7 have been legitimately on the commercial level. Overall, I would say I was satisfied with 15 - 17 batches, and disappointed with maybe 10 (not including 2 lost to bottle infection). The rest were just decent to good.

I am ever hopeful.
 
Well after 8 brew sessions I would say my best was good beer and I liked all the rest but no none of them were commercial quality. I have got a huge amount to learn. And things to buy! lol.:D
 
Ridire said:
Who among ye believes that their homebrew is as good as most craft beer bought at the bottle shop? Honest assessment...
Click to expand...

I enjoy most of what I brew as much or more than most craft beer I can buy. Would someone else, a judge, agree? Maybe not. I've never entered a competition and probably never will. I'm not a member of any club (not a joiner). The only feedback I get is from friends and family, not very objective but I don't really care. I brew mainly for my own satisfaction, not to prove anything to others or win medals.
 
My tenth batch was a Kolsch. It came out very good and in only 3 weeks primary and 2 weeks in the bottle. That was the first one I could not detect any off flavor and was actually proud to share.
 
Hamaki said:
The only feedback I get is from friends and family, not very objective but I don't really care. I brew mainly for my own satisfaction, not to prove anything to others or win medals.
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Even though I don't get to brew nearly as much as I'd like, I brew way more beer than I can drink myself. So, even if I don't brew to prove anything to others, I'd still like to be fairly confident that the beer I'm serving is good. If you don't feel that feedback from friends and family is objective (I don't either), than competitions are the only way to get it.

As to the OP, when I enter competitions my beer scores average in the mid 30's. Some of that is from not being good at brewing to style, but it is what it is. Most commercial beers judged in Zymurgy score in the 40 point area. So, I have to say no, I have not reached craft beer status. But I’m sure having fun trying.
:tank:
 
Yooper said:
My beer is generally as good or better than commercial beer. BUT- there are some mediocre craft beers out there. :D
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This.

I'm one of those boring "color inside the lines" type of brewers, in that I tend to brew to style, and I usually judge my own beers against classic examples of their style. Within that framework, I'm usually better than many commercial examples which are not very good, whether that's stylewise or just flat out mediocre beer, and sometimes I'm competitive with the best, sometimes I brew a mediocre (or even bad) batch, and most of the time I'd say I'm on par with the average beer.

I'd say it usually depends on what I'm brewing. When it comes to American styled beers, I can usually find a better commercial example. I don't brew too many of em, so I don't have much practice with them. German beers I think I do well, and can compare with most US interpretations, and some German examples, however I also have only done top-fermented German beers (don't have the space or electrical capacity for a proper fermentation temperature, and can't keep low enough stable enough to do a lager with a swamp cooler), so that's a limited pool, and even then I don't know if I'll ever make a Hefe as good as Weihenestephaner. I think I make a good Belgian beer, better than many US examples, but again not at the level of the best of em. But the bulk of what I brew is English beer, and frankly most US examples I've had have been between meh and terrible (stylistically speaking at least), and I think my English beers can compete with most all English commercial examples.

Of course, some are better than others and they all get better with some tweaking. Generally I don't think I get really up there quality-wise until I've rebrewed it a couple times to dial it in.

And yeah, while there's a difference between "good beer" and "competition winning beer", within the standards I set for myself (looking at both my own beer and commercial beer within style framework), so far, my competition results have backed me up. I'd guess my overall score "average" of everything I've ever entered is probably around 35-37 (the occasional beer in the 20s, the occasional beer in the 40s, and most of my entries in the mid to upper 30s). Which to me says "competitive but not the head of the pack" regarding commercial beer (and homebrew too). Often times beers I'm entering are first runs with a recipe, and if I then go back and tweak it, the score goes up from there.

I have had a couple that I thought were among the best of their style. One was my Wee Heavy, which typically scored 37ish in comps when I was entering it, but my last two bottles (after about 2 years of aging) I thought could hold their own against any Scotch Ale I'd ever had. I thought my Düsseldorf Alt from early this year was fantastic, especially for my first try of the style, and side by side with Uerige's Alt I could barely tell the difference, and if hadn't undercarbonated it slightly (bottle conditioned so it was too late) I think it would have been even better. That one got me 40 points at NHC this year but didn't make it out of mini-BOS (and I think if I carbed it properly it would have made it and even been a contender in the finals). My house Saison (recipe in drop down) I think is better than any Saison I've had (with the exception of a properly handled and unskunked bottle of Saison Dupont). And I think my most recently tweaked version of my house Mild (also in drop down) is the best I've had of the style, period. I'm still waiting for competition results on that one.

Of course, my friends have told me a few times "You make the best beer I've ever had" and proceed to drink it all. But then my family (all BMC drinkers) will humor me by drinking some, but it's obvious they don't like it (with the exception of a few- they loved my Kölsch, my Petite Saison, and my Witbier), with the exception of one family member we're thinking has become an alcoholic who drinks too much of it.

But we all know how much the subjective opinions of friends and family are worth...
 
Having access to beer from amazing breweries pretty much ceased my homebrewing. After a year of brewing and getting nowhere close to the likes of Cigar City, Bells, Great Divide, etc... I called it quits. Why spend all this time and money when I can just buy better beer?

Then my local brewery stopped making good berliners, I figured what the hell I'll give it a whirl. After some research I dove in and brewed my first berliner after about 9 months of no brewing. Damned if it wasn't right up there with the Funky Buddha's berliners...though they added fruit I saw the potential, made the same exact recipe and added raspberries to the secondary. My god it worked somehow, I even brought it to the brewery and the bartenders preferred mine over their own. So now I know I am making some solid ass beer, in fact I gave one as an extra for a trade, he's trading me real special commercial beer for my homebrews now which is kind of crazy. Never thought I'd get a bottle of Forgotten Island for a homebrew Raspberry Berliner.

What's even crazier is he told some of his friends so I have people out of state looking for my homebrew now...I fear this will inflate my ego entirely too much. Now my goal is consistency. I struck gold 3 times, 4th and 5th not so much. Thankfully I have resources like this forum to help me nail down the differences and what causes them, but now that I've tasted what I can make I have a burning passion for it once again.

Greatest part about berliners, 6lb grain bill.
 
I'm pretty sure my Ales are just as good or better than commercial Ales. The problem I have is Lagers. Its really hard to get that German taste and aroma but I ain't giving up yet.
 
I thought we just had one of these. ;)

In that thread I said I was a ~C brewer with some beers being much better than that and some worse. Comparing myself to craft beer is a different story though. I follow the same line of thinking that there are a lot of average or worse craft beers out there. Mine are better than a lot those (freshness may have a great deal to do some of that). A perfect example of this was my GF bought a couple packs of a saison that is supposed to be good (people on rate beer seem to really like it) simply because she liked the label. Side by side with my best saison 5 out of the 7 people (excluding me) that tried both in a blind taste test preferred mine. Personally, I think that beer was a pretty average example of a saison, but others seem to disagree.

I find myself only going after rare or just the very best examples of beers when I go to liquor stores or bars. Simply because I can't compete with the very best examples. I have a couple beers that I think might be close in the semi-near future, but they are not there yet.
 
I've been brewing close to 7 years now and take it pretty seriously. I don't compete more than a few times a year, but I medal at least a few times a year. I'd call my beer on par with the average commercial craft brewer.

That said, when I compare my beer to the best of any given style--which is the only beer I buy commercially--I'm probably not there. I have some great beers, but not all of them.

I think my last hurdle is water, though. I recently started brewing with RO and added salts, and I hope this puts me over the top.
 
I am going to go ahead and say yes, absolutely. I've been brewing for 15 years and do believe my beers are comparable or better than commercial craft beers. That's not to say I haven't brewed some bad batches, as I definitely have.
 
I would say that usually my beers are easily on par with commercial beers. We all have beers that aren't quite what we had hoped for but they are still alright. I think the "ugly baby syndrome" happens more with new brewers where as advanced brewers never think there beers are good enough. Think of it this way. If you enter a beer into a comp and it scores a 30 it is still considered a "good" beer even though most of us would not be very happy with that score. Even though it is being judged by a "beer geek" who is looking for flaws it is considered a "good" beer. Now give that same beer to a regular craft beer drinker and he/she will think it is at least a good beer but probably even better!! I love reading the Commercial Calibration section of Zymurgy...a few months ago a beer that had won multiple medals at GABF only scored a 32-33.
 
Honestly I'd say 1 out of every 5 beers on average but I'm also brewing on a small scale compared to them.

Quality control and consistency is the biggest hurdle for a homebrewer.

I've been brewing for about 12 years.
 
I'm only just under a year in, and so far have brewed 7 beers. Everything I've brewed has been well-recieved by everyone who has tasted them, and I have people who wouldn't hesitate to tell me if it sucked. Plus, I have enjoyed the hell out of all of them, which is my main goal!

I've made some mistakes, of course, just like we all do, but nothing that made anything worse than alot of the crap beers I've tried. I've brewed two all grain beers now, one is still fermenting. The first was an ESB that I didn't use enough hops on, but it still tastes good, if not correct to style. We'll see on the second.

Hopefully I'll start entering some competitions here soon, so I can get some outside opinions and learn where else I can improve.
 
I would say that on average mine are better than commercial craft, but that is based on a lot of "Hey, here's something new, I'll try a 6er of this." The consistency is where I lack a bit, I can just about guarantee myself a stand-up double and hit quite a few round trips, but I have an occasional but or sac-fly.
My 2 great accomplishments (on different brews) were getting a pure Coors Light guy to pour himself another draft instead of opening the cooler, and when a guy who used to run a bottle shop told me that my IIPA was easily of the $12 4pk caliber :)
 
It would be interesting to see all these beers that everyone thinks are better under a microscope - that might shape your confidence just a little.
 
shoreman said:
It would be interesting to see all these beers that everyone thinks are better under a microscope - that might shape your confidence just a little.
Click to expand...

That's a great point! In some ways it is much harder to produce a quality homebrew vs. a quality commercial beer. They have the benefit of a lab and a Q/C program (hopefully). They can measure yeast parameters ( density, viability, etc) and contaminants. Most of us can't. Not to mention all the other high tech stuff brewing stuff they have that we can only dream about.
 
I will put it this way... I haven't brewed a beer that wasn't extremely drinkable! With all the information out there these days, the internet to pick and computer programs like BeerSmith I have found it somewhat easy to brew decent beer. I will say that I read several books, I have a note book I keep not to mention the computer. I collected and made equipment for a couple years before brewing (I'm a maintenance mechanic/pipe fitter by trade.) And I'm as anal as they come! I have has several beer nuts try my brews and until I show them the equipment and kegs they don't believe me. Would I brag? Hell no. But when people say OMG I politely say " Thank-you." And I do know that I don't make the beer just the parameters for the "little beasts" to make the beer!!!
 
Mine certainly is not and especially when I start experimenting and making up my own recipes.... I am quite disappointed.

When I follow most recipes they turn out great, but I know they don't match the quality of something coming out of Bell's or Dogfish Head.
 
@clockwise

Do you use a program like BeerSmith? I hate to sound like an advert but it does keep you on track. Don't go crazy with making up a recipe. Keep it simple. And read read read.
 
allentwnguy said:
@clockwise

Do you use a program like BeerSmith? I hate to sound like an advert but it does keep you on track. Don't go crazy with making up a recipe. Keep it simple. And read read read.
Click to expand...

+1

One thing I always try to keep in mind (and I know Brad Smith of BeerSmith is big on saying this too, among other folks) when designing my own recipes, is to question why every ingredient is in a recipe. If you can't figure out why it needs to be there, then it probably doesn't need to be there. That goes for malts, hops, adjuncts, spices, whatever. Add things with a purpose. And keep it simple.
 

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