Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate 99% Min. Purity 25lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0765D125Z/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_PCaqEbRRY5E4M
Excellent! I'll give this a try soon.
I order from makeyourown.buzzAnyone know what types of companies have Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Metasilicate. I looked around my area and it looks like I can only get a pallet or 55 gallon drum of them.
Looking to buy 50 to 100 pounds locally but having a hard time. 50# of Percarbonate shipped is over 100$ for me
Carpet cleaners? Dry cleaners?
Thanks guys
NopeYou want larger quantities than the recipe which includes Oxiclean, 7th Generation Dishwashing powder, and Red Devil TSP/90?
ThisAnyone know what types of companies have Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Metasilicate. I looked around my area and it looks like I can only get a pallet or 55 gallon drum of them.
Looking to buy 50 to 100 pounds locally but having a hard time. 50# of Percarbonate shipped is over 100$ for me
Carpet cleaners? Dry cleaners?
Thanks guys
To my knowledge, those dry cleaners and other companies pay distributers and you would need to work out a deal with them if they'd be willing to cut you in. The makeyourown website I referenced estimated shipping of 50# Sodium Metabisulfite for 26$.This
Looks like the only chemical they sell is tetrasodium edta. I was looking for Metasilicate and Percarbonate, it would take a lifetime to use 50# of metabisulfiteTo my knowledge, those dry cleaners and other companies pay distributers and you would need to work out a deal with them if they'd be willing to cut you in. The makeyourown website I referenced estimated shipping of 50# Sodium Metabisulfite for 26$.
metasilicate (only if you're cleaning aluminum), and some surfactant (jet dry, unfragranced Dawn, whatever).
What do I use? My company's knock-off of PBW (ours doesn't have metasilicate in it) for most things. For really bad cleaning jobs in my home brewery, I bring out the big dogs (the potassium hydroxide-based stuff).
From that sheet:I see that a lot of people use Red Devil TSP 90 which I don't see available locally. Are there any concerns with using the product below?
Product link
https://www.menards.com/main/paint/...ute-cleaner/64164/p-1444444207124-c-19343.htm
Technical data sheet
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/SUNNY001/Prod_Tech_Spec/641ProductDataSheet.pdf
I see that a lot of people use Red Devil TSP 90 which I don't see available locally. Are there any concerns with using the product below?
Product link
https://www.menards.com/main/paint/...ute-cleaner/64164/p-1444444207124-c-19343.htm
Technical data sheet
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/SUNNY001/Prod_Tech_Spec/641ProductDataSheet.pdf
Yup, my last batch of DIY PBW I couldn't find TSP90 so I got some regular TSP (cheaper also).As others have said, you absolutely can use this. I've also had excellent results using real TSP rather than Sodium Metasilicate.
Do you have access to TriSodium Phosphate? (Original TSP, not TSP-90?) If so, use it 1:1 substitute.I can not find powdered sodium metasilicate in my country, only sodium silicate solution called "waterglass" or "liquid glass". Can I use this solution as a substitute for TSP/90 in the recipe? How does it affect the ratios? Especially as this is in liquid form... The concentration level is quite dense, 38/39 Be° (Baumé scale).
Yes. However, the comment just before mine is not really convincing ("it's not nearly as good as the metasilicate")... Also, wherever I read the recipe, it's always emphasized to use TSP/90 and not the original TSP. I hoped somebody has enough chemics background to give tips for solution substitution.Do you have access to TriSodium Phosphate? (Original TSP, not TSP-90?) If so, use it 1:1 substitute.
Product declaration
Silicate >30%
Citrate >30%
Sodium percarbonate 5–15%
Sodium carbonate 5–15%
List of ingredients as per EC 648/2004
Sodium silicate, sodium citrate, sodium percarbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium metasilicate
Origin and properties of the ingredients
Silicates are obtained by fusing sand with sodium carbonate and, thanks to their alkalinity, are capable of modifying grease on dishes by saponification, thus making it water-soluble. These silicates make stuck-on food leftovers swell, thus loosening them. Sodium carbonate, manufactured from common salt and lime, disperses the grease into fine droplets, thus supporting the fat-dissolving property of the silicates. Citrate, obtained by fermenting sugar-containing by-products such as molasses, is added to the dishwasher detergent in order to bind lime in the dishwashing water and to protect the machine from deposits, since it is a well-known fact that many dishwashers do not soften the water sufficiently, despite built-in ion exchanger (water softener devices).
I have had the opposite results of what @Bilsch mentions, TSP>TSP90. However, either will work, and both will work well. My formula, back several pages is approx 2:1 percarbonate:TSP and approx 2-4% EDTA4NA as a chelating agent.Yes. However, the comment just before mine is not really convincing ("it's not nearly as good as the metasilicate")... Also, wherever I read the recipe, it's always emphasized to use TSP/90 and not the original TSP. I hoped somebody has enough chemics background to give tips for solution substitution.
Btw, I have found a commercial dishwasher detergent powder which says the following:
Maybe this could be used as a direct replacement for PBW?
I have had the opposite results of what @Bilsch mentions, TSP>TSP90. However, either will work, and both will work well. My formula, back several pages is approx 2:1 percarbonate:TSP and approx 2-4% EDTA4NA as a chelating agent.
I forget the deciding factor, but TSP vs 90, one works better depending on the hardness of your water.
And quite honestly, for majority of my cleaning, percarbonate alone is more than sufficient.
I'm bouncing all over this thread. May I ask what the final most effective ratio of these ingredients are, in your estimation?
What puzzles me is why would anyone add an acid (citric acid) to a fairly strong alkaline solution?I've used the 73/23/3 OxiClean Free/TSP90/citric acid ratio.
Let me start by saying that I have not balanced the equation to verify my argument, not do I have any intention as I do not add citric acid for the reason mentioned by @IslandLizard .What puzzles me is why would anyone add an acid (citric acid) to a fairly strong alkaline solution?
It's a total waste of citric acid, IMO. Although it's a relatively small amount, it counteracts some of the alkalinity, which provides the cleaning power.
For those of you who have homebrew clubs/people who might be interested in splitting a bulk buy of DIY-PBW, I just mixed up a ~140# batch for ~$1.5/#. Ordered bulk chemicals off ebay/amazon. Everything was within the prescribed ratios/etc. What I mixed up:
6 x 75oz 7th Generation Dish Powder ($35.94)
2 x 20# Sodium Percarbonate ($75.98)
1 x 30# Sodium Metasilicate ($60)
1 x 40# Sodium Carbonate ($33.96)
Total: ~138# for $206, or ~$1.49/#
How much do you envision you're gonna use, in say, over the next year?For someone who knows nothing about mixing chemicals/products I have two questions for making the mentioned batch below:
1) What's the safety precautions for this, same as PBW? My understanding is definitely where eye protection and gloves. If a little gets on my skin is it terrible, or should I be fine rinsing off in the shower later the same day?
2) Do you mix all of this together at once, or will that create storage/long term usage issues?
6 x 75oz 7th Generation Dish Powder ($35.94)
2 x 20# Sodium Percarbonate ($75.98)
1 x 30# Sodium Metasilicate ($60)
1 x 40# Sodium Carbonate ($33.96)
How much do you envision you're gonna use, in say, over the next year?
I would not premix any more than that.
For reference, I brew fairly often and it takes me well over a year to use up 2 pounds of homemade PBW (70% (Oxi) / 30% TSP-90) ...
I also recover and reuse some PBW solutions for future usage.
Sure, buy larger amounts for the price breaks, save on shipping. Split with some fellow brewers or a club.I don't plan on mixing that, just the same percentages. But I do plan on buying more bulk, as its a pain to constantly order and mix. Hence my question related to long(er) term storage - 6+ months -.
In all fairness, my homemade PBW is very simple:
70% Oxiclean Free
30% TSP/90
You could add some EDTA if you think it's needed or beneficial.
My water is fairly soft, not much else is needed. I sometimes add a little lye for extra oomph.
I don't have a CIP, but I regularly recirculate 2-3 gallons of near boiling hot "homemade 70/30" PBW (with some lye added) from my boil kettle, through the pump, hoses and plate chiller, back through the whirlpool port, for a few hours. Now the equipment is already pre-rinsed and mostly clean in that regard.How much (oz or grams) do you add to a typical cleaning for say a 5-10 gallon conical CIP setup?
1/4 tsp of Red Devil (drain opener) granules per 1 gallon.How much lye do you add?
If I only used 8lb/year, I wouldn't bother diy, I'd just buy it. I think I use somewhere around 25-40lb/yr. But I use it for things besides brewing. I alter proportions depending on what I'm cleaning.I’m buying 4 pounds PBW twice a year. How can you guys manage to use so little?
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