Homemade PBW Recipe

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I use the normal tsp at the same ratios listed for the tsp 90. It works great. brun dog, tsp/90 seems to be just about impossible to source in Canada as TSP was never phased out here
 
Just cleaned and refurbed 4 corny kegs that were pretty dirty. 30-60 minutes each on the keg washer with half a scoop of the TSP'd PBW recipe in 3 gal of hot water, and they came out pretty clean. 1 required a scrub down with BKF, but the rest are sparkly. Replaced all gaskets, lubed it up, pressurized with a couple cups of star-san in each. All holding pressure after several days. Chalk up a win for the home team.
 
I've made and used it both ways and it's my feeling that the metasilicate version works better than the TSP.
 
Bilsch said:
I've made and used it both ways and it's my feeling that the metasilicate version works better than the TSP.
Click to expand...


If you'll ship me some tsp/90 I'd be happy to try to duplicate and corroborate your results
 
phug said:
I use the normal tsp at the same ratios listed for the tsp 90. It works great. brun dog, tsp/90 seems to be just about impossible to source in Canada as TSP was never phased out here
Click to expand...


No doubt legit tri-sodium-phosphate cleans stuff. I don't know how it works in brewery equipment, but many have sworn, like you, it works a treat. I can't get it so I can't offer any direct comparison.

Bottom line: it's good to have access to strong cleaners for our cleaning needs!
 
How much of this would I use per gallon of water?

Edit: Looks like about 1oz per gallon which I believe is the same for PBW.
 
For those of you who have homebrew clubs/people who might be interested in splitting a bulk buy of DIY-PBW, I just mixed up a ~140# batch for ~$1.5/#. Ordered bulk chemicals off ebay/amazon. Everything was within the prescribed ratios/etc. What I mixed up:

6 x 75oz 7th Generation Dish Powder ($35.94)
2 x 20# Sodium Percarbonate ($75.98)
1 x 30# Sodium Metasilicate ($60)
1 x 40# Sodium Carbonate ($33.96)

Total: ~138# for $206, or ~$1.49/#
 
Just made a batch. Ace had TSP/90 (and bucket), Walmart had Oxi Clean Free and Target had Seventh Generation (75oz box). I'll never run out of this stuff.
 
zman_ said:
I just mixed up a ~140# batch for ~$1.5/#. Ordered bulk chemicals off ebay/amazon. Everything was within the prescribed ratios/etc...
Click to expand...

How did you handle that quantity of powder.. in a cement mixer or something?
 
I have a 20 gallon trash can that I use for second runnings on my BIAB system so I just filled that with the powder (filled up ~75% of the way), stirred as best I could while filling. Then transfered out into an array of 5g buckets, homogenized each individually, then mixed them back in and stirred everything up again.

Not the most efficient method, but it worked.

And of course, full body protections/gloves/mask/etc and a respirator the whole time.
 
So, it seems that the All oxi free and clear is getting hard to get, any other substitutions?
 
h22lude said:
Just made a batch. Ace had TSP/90 (and bucket), Walmart had Oxi Clean Free and Target had Seventh Generation (75oz box). I'll never run out of this stuff.
Click to expand...

Thumbs up!! This is EXACTLY where I found the ingredients you found at the same locations you mentioned. I bought enough so that when all mixed I had almost a full 5 gallon bucket ready to go. Now I don't feel so "stingy" using PBW in the proper amounts!!
 
Morrey said:
Thumbs up!! This is EXACTLY where I found the ingredients you found at the same locations you mentioned. I bought enough so that when all mixed I had almost a full 5 gallon bucket ready to go. Now I don't feel so "stingy" using PBW in the proper amounts!!
Click to expand...

You just answered my next question with what size container I will need
 
it'll probably work... Check the ingredients. 7th gen. is mostly (30-100%) salt (NaCl) according to it's MSDS the rest is almost all Sodium Sulfate (10-30%), Sodium Carbonate (10-30%), and Citric Acid (10-30%) with a percent or two of other things (including amylase enzyme!).

You could almost make your own with grocery store items (salt, washing soda, citric acid)... You can buy sodium sulfate off ebay, too.
 
@HomebrewHandicapper
Looking through the ingredients it looks like it might be a fine substitute, although there's no way for us to really know whether it will behave the same since the compounds are a bit different and the ratios may be off.

@jtratcliff
I would think chelators and surfactants would be important (or at least beneficial) for thoroughly cleaning our equipment. Just because the product is mostly NaCl doesn't mean the other compounds aren't important, especially to the point where you can just use salt instead. If creating a PBW-substitute is our goal, we need all the active ingredients.

What doesn't really make sense to me is that the PBW patent specifically calls to avoid chlorine, such as NaCl.
"Preferably, the cleaning composition is substantially free of chlorine-containing compounds" - from the patent linked on the first post.
But hey, if you guys are all using this, I suppose it must be working all right. Obviously a chloride ion is radically different than hypochlorite (pun intended).
 
Is it safe to use this type of cleaner with my polysulfone pump head? Any reason why I shouldn't use my wort pump to circulate cleaning solutions? I was all excited to start a cip routine using my handy new MKII pump from KegKing. Cleaning is half the reason I wanted a pump in the first place.
 
Jayjay1976 said:
Is it safe to use this type of cleaner with my polysulfone pump head? Any reason why I shouldn't use my wort pump to circulate cleaning solutions? I was all excited to start a cip routine using my handy new MKII pump from KegKing. Cleaning is half the reason I wanted a pump in the first place.
Click to expand...

I have been using PBW, the clone, and Greased Lightning solution for 7 years now to CIP my RIMS March pump with a polysulphone head with zero issues.

They seem extremely durable.
 
I live in the Philippines and have just started brewing again. I AG brewed in Canada many years ago, but malted grain is so expensive here(shipping from Manila is really high. I'm in Cebu.) I'm stuck with coopers malt extracts, beer can kits and hops and yeast. Trying to devise a good malting kiln for the high humidity here. two row barley is cheap as feed. Fermentation temp is the hardest to control here, but I think I have found the solution. PBW(US$20/lb $70/4lb + shipping) and Star San(8oz $22+shipping) are outrageous so I'm using Provodine Iodine for sanitizing and am looking to make your PBW clone. After much investigation I have finally been able to locate the ingredients, but Oxi clean is insane and the 7th gen dishwasher det 45oz costs $8. Having said that I have after much calling found all the base chemicals here from several lab supply shops cheap in kilo size. The most expensive is the sodium percarbonate. Hard to find without buying 25KG (55lb) bag (found it but supplier had it as oxygen bleach powder. Small ingredients on big bag said sodium percarbonate) Cost $3.05/KG ($1.39/lb) Sodium carbonate $0.50/kg ($0.23/lb) TSP(real stuff) $0.99/kg ($0.45/lb) or Sodium metabisulfite $1.28/kg ($0.58/lb) So basically I have found all the primary cheap and wondering if I should use 7th gen or add some other chemicals I kind find here cheap like citric acid and various other ingredients the original may have used like sodium lauryl sulfate and EDTA. If I can get the recipe right I may be able to sell it to the many microbreweries here. What do you think I should add to the primaries in place of the 7th gen?
 
Hopefully, someone here can help you formulate a substitute for PBW but I think I would use bleach and laundry soap.
Oldasianhand said:
I live in the Philippines and have just started brewing again. I AG brewed in Canada many years ago, but malted grain is so expensive here(shipping from Manila is really high. I'm in Cebu.) I'm stuck with coopers malt extracts, beer can kits and hops and yeast. Trying to devise a good malting kiln for the high humidity here. two row barley is cheap as feed. Fermentation temp is the hardest to control here, but I think I have found the solution. PBW(US$20/lb $70/4lb + shipping) and Star San(8oz $22+shipping) are outrageous so I'm using Provodine Iodine for sanitizing and am looking to make your PBW clone. After much investigation I have finally been able to locate the ingredients, but Oxi clean is insane and the 7th gen dishwasher det 45oz costs $8. Having said that I have after much calling found all the base chemicals here from several lab supply shops cheap in kilo size. The most expensive is the sodium percarbonate. Hard to find without buying 25KG (55lb) bag (found it but supplier had it as oxygen bleach powder. Small ingredients on big bag said sodium percarbonate) Cost $3.05/KG ($1.39/lb) Sodium carbonate $0.50/kg ($0.23/lb) TSP(real stuff) $0.99/kg ($0.45/lb) or Sodium metabisulfite $1.28/kg ($0.58/lb) So basically I have found all the primary cheap and wondering if I should use 7th gen or add some other chemicals I kind find here cheap like citric acid and various other ingredients the original may have used like sodium lauryl sulfate and EDTA. If I can get the recipe right I may be able to sell it to the many microbreweries here. What do you think I should add to the primaries in place of the 7th gen?
Click to expand...
 
Oldasianhand said:
Sodium carbonate $0.50/kg ($0.23/lb) TSP(real stuff) $0.99/kg ($0.45/lb) or Sodium metabisulfite $1.28/kg ($0.58/lb)
Click to expand...

Maybe it's just a typo... but you want sodium metasilicate and not metabisulfite.
 
Oldasianhand said:
Small ingredients on big bag said sodium percarbonate) Cost $3.05/KG ($1.39/lb) Sodium carbonate $0.50/kg ($0.23/lb) TSP(real stuff) $0.99/kg ($0.45/lb) or Sodium metabisulfite $1.28/kg ($0.58/lb) ...

... What do you think I should add to the primaries in place of the 7th gen?
Click to expand...

Sodium carbonate (commonly known as "washing soda") is a pretty decent cleaner, I use it all the time. It's what's leftover after the sodium percarbonate, which is quite overrated IMO, has shed its oxygen, which happens rather quickly.

I really don't see what 7th Generation adds as a cleaning product, as I've already addressed previously in this post (above). Aside from components already in the mix, and some that even counteract them (Citric Acid, Sodium Sulfite), it adds Sodium Chloride (table salt), of which I'm not sure what its function is.

Bilsch said:
Maybe it's just a typo... but you want sodium metasilicate and not metabisulfite.
Click to expand...

He can get the real TSP, see highlight above. In that case there's no need for the sodium metasilicate at all, which is a phosphorous-free "TSP substitute."

The Sodium Metabisulfite can be used as a sanitizer (wine makers use it), and removes chlorine and chloramines from (domestic) water. For the latter use, a pound would go a long, long way since you only need about half a gram per 20 gallons.
 
Last edited:
I just picked up all the ingredients to make up a batch; a 45oz box of 7th gen, two 3lb tubs of oxiclean free, and a 64oz box of TSP90. Before I midx it up, how large of a container do I need to store this? will it absorb moisture and clump up if its not tightly sealed? My available storage space for brewing stuff is very tight, I'd like to know exactly what size container to buy.
 
Go to your local grocery store bakery, ( Publix comes to mind), and ask for a frosting bucket, ( not two of them, space is tight.....;) ).

It'll hold it, and it has an O-ring in the lid.

It's dry stuff......It will absorb moisture.

Break it up before use, if needed.
 
Okay, I can pick up everything in minimum 1kg lots. So I now have sodium percarbonate 1kg ($3.05) sodium carbonate(soda ash) 2KG ($1, $0.5/kg) citric acid 1kg ($1.50) and real TSP 1kg ($1) I didn't buy Sodium lauryl sulfate SLS (SDS) but it costs $3.50/kg or EDTA $4.80/kg. Of course none of this is really expensive and even cheaper in large quantity (25kg sacks), but I'm still trying to find the best clone or for that matter the best cleaner for beer bar none. For those of you in the US divide prices by 2.2 to get price per pound. I think what I will have to do is brew a bunch of 1 gallon brews or even 1 quart(liter) using 1.5 liter PET bottles and then try to clean them with tap water and RO to see what I get. Tap water and RO are around 27C or 80F normally here at this time of year the cool rainy season. Any chemists out there that can advise which surfactant and chelate I should use would be appreciated. If I use citric acid how much extra soda ash should I use to offset acid(guess this would depend on water I use.) Does anybody know what ph I should be looking for in the 5g batch? I much appreciate any help with this and will be happy to post my results.
 
Oldasianhand said:
Okay, I can pick up everything in minimum 1kg lots. So I now have sodium percarbonate 1kg ($3.05) sodium carbonate(soda ash) 2KG ($1, $0.5/kg) citric acid 1kg ($1.50) and real TSP 1kg ($1) I didn't buy Sodium lauryl sulfate SLS (SDS) but it costs $3.50/kg or EDTA $4.80/kg. Of course none of this is really expensive and even cheaper in large quantity (25kg sacks), but I'm still trying to find the best clone or for that matter the best cleaner for beer bar none. For those of you in the US divide prices by 2.2 to get price per pound. I think what I will have to do is brew a bunch of 1 gallon brews or even 1 quart(liter) using 1.5 liter PET bottles and then try to clean them with tap water and RO to see what I get. Tap water and RO are around 27C or 80F normally here at this time of year the cool rainy season. Any chemists out there that can advise which surfactant and chelate I should use would be appreciated. If I use citric acid how much extra soda ash should I use to offset acid(guess this would depend on water I use.) Does anybody know what ph I should be looking for in the 5g batch? I much appreciate any help with this and will be happy to post my results.
Click to expand...

Using Citric Acid seems contradictory to PBW's makeup of high alkaline detergents. Won't the Sodium (Per)carbonate and Citric Acid cancel each other out?

I really don't understand where all those extra ingredients mentioned in this thread came into play. I can't be the only one frowning upon it.

The most simple home compounded "PBW" only contains these 2 ingredients, I've been using this myself for as many years as I've brewed:


  • 70% Sodium Percarbonate (you can use Oxiclean (~70% Percarbonate/30%Carbonate) or a cheaper generic knock-off, alas with lower percarbonate content)
  • 30% Sodium Metasilicate (TSP/90), or use real TSP if you want.
If you need to chelate any metal ions, add a very small percentage of (Sodium) EDTA.
If you feel a surfactant is needed, you can add some of that too. Or add a drop of dish wash liquid to the working solution.

The homemade "PBW" is a very passable alternative to the outrageously priced original manufacturer's PBW at $8-10 a pound, even if bought in 50# buckets at a group buy at around $4 a pound.

BTW, 3.3 pounds of the homemade stuff have lasted me 4 years, but I'm frugal, and reclaim/reuse it. Alas the O2 has dissipated, but the Sodium Metasilicate/Sodium Carbonate solution is potent enough for most chores. The released O2 component is highly overrated, IMO, but it's effect looks so compelling on TV!

If I need extra oomph, I add some lye, and recirculate the boiling solution for as long as it takes. I've gotten heavily "brown tarnished" hop bags used in the wort boil and silicone brewing hoses spic & span clean.
 
Last edited:
IslandLizard said:
If I need extra oomph, I add some lye, and recirculate the boiling solution for as long as it takes. I'be gotten heavily "brown tarnished" hop bags used in the wort boil and silicone brewing hoses spic & span clean.
Click to expand...

I have long wanted to clean up a heavily stained grain bag I own and for some reason had not considered using the PBW solution to that end. I may try heating up a cleaner solution in my recirculation system with the the grain bag in the reservoir and see how that goes.
 
processhead said:
I have long wanted to clean up a heavily stained grain bag I own and for some reason had not considered using the PBW solution to that end. I may try heating up a cleaner solution in my recirculation system with the the grain bag in the reservoir and see how that goes.
Click to expand...

For that purpose, add a tablespoon of lye (or some lye solution), it cleans off that tarnish even better. Just be very careful with skin and eyes, it's caustic!

After a few hours of recirculation, I think I left the lot in the kettle overnight. To my surprise, the next morning those bags were as white as can be. I didn't recognize them.
 
It's actually time for me to make a new batch of this stuff so I hit Amazon... it seems that the Red Devil TSP/90 is no longer sodium metasilicate. You can find lots of happy PBW-makers in the reviews but a very recent review claims the MSDS for this product now lists mostly sodium percarbonate. When I looked for the MSDS I found two versions, one listing sodium metasilicate, and one that was sodium percarbonate plus sodium carbonate. I can't tell which one is more recent and there is no way to tell what's in the Amazon bag without ordering it.

Fortunately an Amazon seller is listing sodium metasilicate at approximately the same per-pound price, with free shipping:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I2YT8Y0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

As far as I can see, this is the cheapest sodium percarbonate you can get on Amazon. I used this supplier before, though 10 lbs at that time. I am moving up to 25 lbs now, why not... Brewers have lots of buckets...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010CEGYN0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This vendor is nearly the same price and the product comes in separate 5 lb bags which is nice:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP6S0H8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I am honestly not sure if sodium metasilicate or real TSP is better, but assuming last year's bag of Red Devil was sodium metasilicate, I was happy with how the formula worked so I am sticking with it. I also want to avoid putting a ton of phosphorous in waste water since it's not good for the environment.

So... a 5 lb bag of sodium metasilicate plus 11.6 lb sodium percarbonate is about the right ratio. I'll use the rest of the percarbonate for laundry and cleaning and get more sodium metasilicate when it's time for a new batch, which I think will be in about 2.5 years.

EDIT TO ADD:

Using these suppliers and assuming no tax and free shipping, the clone cost is about $2.58/lb or $0.16/oz.

Actual PBW can be had at $200/50 lb, or $0.25/oz. Best price I can find with free shipping on the 8 lb jar is $45, or $0.35/oz. The 4 lb jar can be had at about $0.38/oz.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

L
PBW alternative
Replies
3
Views
3K
lauran910
L
I
Cleaning with DIY PBW question
Replies
1
Views
398
OnePlate
OnePlate
T
Experiment: PBW vs Oxyclean vs Homemade PBW
Replies
20
Views
14K
dlutter
dlutter
D
  • Article
Cleaning and Sanitation Primer
Replies
18
Views
2K
Shaddark
S
M
Has anyone used Brew Clean (similar to PBW) from Keg Connection?
Replies
2
Views
4K
MNDan
M

Latest posts

Back
Top