Homemade PBW Recipe

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Yesfan said:
Good catch! I forgot to add in for two tubs of Oxi. So now, the actual cost of homemade PBW per pound is more like $3.86/lb instead of $2.77/lb. That's still pretty good, imo.
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Yeah, if you've got a Costco membership you can order the OXO brite online and bring your cost way down.

My new plan is to use the OXO brite from Costco + the TSP substitute you found from Amazon + the 7th Generation from Amazon/soap.com.

That should bring my cost down to about $2.20/lb.
 
drgonzo2k2 said:
Yeah, if you've got a Costco membership you can order the OXO brite online and bring your cost way down.

My new plan is to use the OXO brite from Costco + the TSP substitute you found from Amazon + the 7th Generation from Amazon/soap.com.

That should bring my cost down to about $2.20/lb.
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Thanks! I have one, but my wife goes down there more than I do (it's about 45 minutes away). The nearest LHBS is about another 15 minutes, so maybe the next time I have to go that way, I'll hit both places for supplies and ingredients.
 
Yesfan said:
Thanks! I have one, but my wife goes down there more than I do (it's about 45 minutes away). The nearest LHBS is about another 15 minutes, so maybe the next time I have to go that way, I'll hit both places for supplies and ingredients.
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I've only seen the OXO brite in my local store one time. It is always available online though, and it's free shipping. My wife uses it for laundry too, so we always have a big box on hand.
 
Where's this 7th generation addition coming from?

It's definitely not part of the PBW formulation. And it boosts the price per pound significantly.
  • What's the benefit of it?
  • What is it made of?
I don't see what it adds, apart from including another catchy product name.
 
IslandLizard said:
Where's this 7th generation addition coming from?

It's definitely not part of the PBW formulation. And it boosts the price per pound significantly.
  • What's the benefit of it?
  • What is it made of?
I don't see what it adds, apart from including another catchy product name.
Click to expand...

The 7th Generation was included in the first version of the recipe. I use this recipe from page 2, which is the updated version of the original recipe.

The 7th Generation gives you two things:

1 - A surfactant
2 - A chelating agent

both of which make the homemade PBW a more effective cleaner and closer to the original formulation.
 
drgonzo beat me to it. One of my club members said the same thing. I think the 7th generation is an added bonus for those with hard water. I "think" that's what it's main function is for. It may not be needed if you have soft water.



I'm not a chemist, so take that with a grain of salt.




FWIW, I made up my own PBW today and tried it out on 3 carboys and 6 kegs. The rinsing seemed to be a LOT easier than with Oxy alone, especially with colder water. I'll know more tomorrow after everything has had time to dry out.
 
BrunDog said:
I have been buying Oxyclean Versatile Free from Amazon. WHat are the ingredients in the Costco OXO Brite?
Click to expand...

I have the same question. We live at Costco (4 kids) so if this is comparable to oxiclean free then...well I go there 2 or 3 times a week. Thanks for the thread.
 
this is what I bought, it lasts a long time, 2 years in my house

ScreenHunter_14 Apr. 18 18.19.jpg
 
BrunDog said:
I have been buying Oxyclean Versatile Free from Amazon. WHat are the ingredients in the Costco OXO Brite?
Click to expand...

EtchyLives said:
I have the same question. We live at Costco (4 kids) so if this is comparable to oxiclean free then...well I go there 2 or 3 times a week. Thanks for the thread.
Click to expand...

Ok, so the ingredients listed are as expected - Sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate. Basically the same stuff as Oxiclean Free or the old Sun Oxygen cleaner.

Again, just to be clear though, I've only seen this at my local Costco once, and I think it was a fluke, as they didn't have the big Oxiclean tubs they normally did when they had this.

It is always available online though. This is what I buy, and it's free shipping.

Ozarks_Mountain_Brew said:
this is what I bought, it lasts a long time, 2 years in my house
Click to expand...

I follow this recipe from page 2, which as far as I know, is the closest that anyone has come to mixing up a home made version of PBW. You can see the ideal range for each component in the far right column, and the percentage this recipe yields right next to it.

The only change to this recipe I make is using the OXO brite as the Sun brand cleaner doesn't seem to be available at Dollar Tree any longer.

If you're not using Oxiclean Free (or an alternative) then you are getting fragrances mixed in with your cleaner, which real PBW does not have.

If you're not including the 7th generation then you are missing both a surfactant and a chelating agent from your home made version, both of which real PBW has.

Not saying there's anything wrong with what you mixed up, just pointing out how it differs from real PBW.
 
so i've been doing some shopping around and MagicMatt claims why make your own home made version of PBW because now you can get it so cheap... he is claiming $3/lb at his LHBS or certain places with shipping for $4/lb.....

using the recipe on page 2 with the ratio's of 48% of Oxy Clean, 32% of TSP 90 and 20% of Seventh Generation..

At my walmart I can get name brand Oxy clean for $7.56 for 3lbs, at my local Ace Hardware I can get 4lbs of TSP 90 for $13.99 and my local target I can get Seventh Generation for $6.49 which to make a 20lb batch would cost $3.46/lb and if i scale up to do 40lbs the price would come down to $3.26/lb....

now if you have a kroger or can find an off brand Oxy you'll save more... for instance i have a kroger and i can pick up Oxy for $4.39 for 56oz so for me to make a 21lb batch my price comes to $2.89 and if i want to do a 42lb batch my price comes to $2.41

so my question is unless your lucky enough to live in a place where they sell name brand PBW for close to $3/lb WHY NOT make your own!!!! especially if you don't have water problems...... now how long does it take to mix the stuff really? like 30min? for me to get 20lbs for less than $3/lb where i can only buy the real stuff for 4lbs or 8lbs at $4/lb (don't remember which) why not why i get twice as much for almost half the cost!!!!

if you can source stuff locally you'll end up way ahead of the game making your own especially if it works just as well as the real stuff for you...... if the home made stuff doesn't work for you or you have to order everything on-line to make it then ok go with the real stuff....... IMHO, YMMV
 
Post edited to reflect switching back to Red Devil TSP/90 as the Sunnyside brand I'd recommended from Amazon contains Sodium Sesquicarbonate not Sodium Metasilicate as is called for here.

I have gotten my cost down to $2.32/lb. by buying nearly everything online. That does not include sales tax (as it would be different from everyone), but it does include shipping for the one item I've not been able to source with free shipping.

This is using the recipe from page 2, which I think is about as close as you can come to the real PBW by trying to buy ingredients off the shelf and mixing it yourself.

Here's what I use:

OXO Brite from Costco (this is scent free) - Purchase Link

Red Devil TSP/90 from Ace Hardware - Purchase Link - but I pick this up at my local ace hardware

7th Generation from Amazon/Soap.com - Purchase Link

Those ingredients are more than enough to make a single batch as directed; however, we use them for other household purposes, so we always have them on hand.
 
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drgonzo2k2 said:
I have gotten my cost down to $2.22/lb. by buying everything online. That does not include sales tax (as it would be different from everyone), but it does include shipping for the one item I've not been able to source with free shipping.

This is using the recipe from page 2, which I think is about as close as you can come to the real PBW by trying to buy ingredients off the shelf and mixing it yourself.

Here's what I use:

OXO Brite from Costco (this is scent free) - Purchase Link

Sunnyside TSP Substitute from Amazon - Purchase Link

7th Generation from Amazon/Soap.com - Purchase Link

Those ingredients are more than enough to make a single batch as directed; however, we use them for other household purposes, so we always have them on hand.
Click to expand...



What's your opinion on this stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KQ9JRU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
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brewprint said:
What's your opinion on this stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KQ9JRU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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Sorry, that's the wrong product. You want the 7th Generation dish powder, not the laundry powder. I've not really analyzed the difference in the two, but I don't imagine it would have the surfactants and chelating agents we're looking for in the same quantity as the dish detergent.

Otherwise, I think that's a darn fine product. When I was short on time once I asked my wife to pick up a package of the dish powder from the store, and she came back with the laundry powder. We actually liked it so much that we've started using that for the laundry! :mug:
 
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drgonzo2k2 said:
Sorry, that's the wrong product. You want the 7th Generation dish powder, not the laundry powder. I've not really analyzed the difference in the two, but I don't imagine it would have the surfactants and chelating agents we're looking for in the same quantity as the dish detergent.

Otherwise, I think that's a darn fine product. When I was short on time once I asked my wife to pick up a package of the dish powder from the store, and she came back with the laundry powder. We actually liked it so much that we've started using that for the laundry! :mug:
Click to expand...

I believe it does have the stuff you're looking for.

http://www.better-bottle.com/pdf/WashingSanitizingStudy.pdf
 
DarkStarNJ said:
Many of the TSP Substitute products seem to be Sodium Sesquicarbonate. no idea how that compares to the the Sodium Metasilicate.


http://www.sunnysidecorp.com/sds/Phosphate Free TSP SDS 641.pdf
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for pointing that out! I'd actually not yet whipped up a fresh batch with the Sunnyside brand, I was just going to switch to it for my next batch after another user recommended it. They are in fact different compounds, so I will switch back to the Red Devil TSP/90 that I originally used.

I'll see if I can edit that post! Thanks again!
 
brewprint said:
I believe it does have the stuff you're looking for.

http://www.better-bottle.com/pdf/WashingSanitizingStudy.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. I skimmed through, but honestly didn't have time to read all 19 pages of it. I know in the references section they call out links to 7th Generation laundry detergent; however, in the chart they just call out Free and Clear 2X 7th Generation. Unfortunately both the dish powder and laundry powder are called free and clear, so I'm not sure which one they reference there.

Also the chart shows that PBW does not contain a surfactant, which it clearly does according to the patent.

Either way, I think this thread has shown there are a whole lot of ways to skin this cat, so I'd think as long as whatever you're doing works for you, then there's no reason to change it up!
 
I have mixed 70/30 generic oxy answer red devil tsp 90 with great success
I have moved to us ng them separately with my kegs
I'll add a couple tbsp TSP, then a scoop of pbw after an hour rest. I leave the ozy in for 20 minutes and then rinse.

I moved to doing this after a rust issue in a recently purchased keg (small rust spot on keg bottom near the end of the dip tube turned into a pinhole).
I have no complaints about the above method and a good rinse with a spraying faucet yields great results.
 
drgonzo2k2 said:
Thanks for the link. I skimmed through, but honestly didn't have time to read all 19 pages of it. I know in the references section they call out links to 7th Generation laundry detergent; however, in the chart they just call out Free and Clear 2X 7th Generation. Unfortunately both the dish powder and laundry powder are called free and clear, so I'm not sure which one they reference there.

Also the chart shows that PBW does not contain a surfactant, which it clearly does according to the patent.

Either way, I think this thread has shown there are a whole lot of ways to skin this cat, so I'd think as long as whatever you're doing works for you, then there's no reason to change it up!
Click to expand...

I just bought that laundry detergent and may put together the recipe from page 2 with some costco stuff. Even thought I despise costco we still have a membership!
 
brewprint said:
I just bought that laundry detergent and may put together the recipe from page 2 with some costco stuff. Even thought I despise costco we still have a membership!
Click to expand...

:off: Hah, I used to hate Costco, Sam's Club, etc., but since the inlaws gifted us a membership a year or so ago, we've become Costco converts. I especially like it for brewing ingredients - I generally get my juice, fruit, sugar, etc. from there.
 
Anyone know what the differences are between Sodium Sesquicarbonate in Sunnyside and Sodium Metasilicate in Red Devil? My mix has the sunnyside, and it's already been mixed and used on my empty kegs.


I have a couple of 5 gallon batches I planned on kegging today or tomorrow. I didn't want to keg it and the Sunny have a negative impact on the beer or effect the taste, etc. The biggest thing I noticed with the premix vs straight Oxy was no white film residue.
 
"How to Formulate and Compound Industrial Detergents" by David Urban is a pretty interesting read...

Sodium Sesquicarbonate is created by combining Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash - sometimes used in laundry detergents) and Sodium Bicarbonate (a low alkaline version of Sodium Carbonate - sometimes used in soft metal cleaners like brass). Combining the two into Sodium Sesquicarbonate results in a substance with a pH of 9.8. Sodium Sesquicarbonate also acts as a water softener.

Sodium Metasilicate on the other hand is a combination of Silicon Dioxide and Sodium Oxide. It does not act as a water softener, and is helpful in protecting soft metals from corrosion due to exposure to strongly alkaline cleaning solutions. The silicates here also help to prevent gunk from redepositing on the clean surface once you've washed them off. The pH of Sodium Metasilicate is about 12.6.

It is important to note though that the Sodium Metasilicate found in Red Devil TSP/90 is actually the pentahydrate version, which means that it has a 41% water content which helps dissolve the substance faster when exposed to water. It was the discovery of this which led to the recipe change on page 2, which reduced the amount of 7th generation from 45 oz to 40 oz to match the Metasilicate to Surfactant ratio of actual PBW.

I am not a chemist by trade, so I don't want to give advice on whether the product is harmful or not; however my gut tells me that if you're already cleaned/rinsed your kegs and not noticed any harmful effects then you are probably fine.
 
Is Oxy-Free a suitable, albeit more expensive, replacement for the Sun Oxygen Cleaner? The only reason Sun was specifically listed was because of its lower price, correct? Since it's no longer available, I was hoping to make this recipe with Oxy-Free, 7th Gen, and Red Devil.

Also, Red Devil is now quite a bit more than quoted originally on this guide. I was hoping to wait for the price to drop on Amazon before ordering it. Would adding just the oxy-free and 7th gen together be better than just using oxy-free alone, as I've been doing for the past 1.5 years? Just wondering what to do while I wait for the price of Red Devil to drop.
 
Yeah, Oxiclean free and most of the other scent free oxygen cleaners are more or less the same thing. It's still quite a bit more expensive than the OXO brite from Costco, which is why I go that route.

I've found the Red Devil TSP/90 is a couple of bucks cheaper at Ace Hardware than Amazon, and there's one right around the corner from me, so I pick that up there.

Personally I would just wait until I had all 3 ingredients available to mix up a batch, but if you've been using it with only 2 and you're happy with the results, I don't see why not.
 
Great - thanks for the info on the OXO brite. I don't have a Costco in my city unfortunately (Sam's has actually won petitions to keep us a Sams-only city), so I'll have to bite the bullet on oxy-free. I am going to head over to Ace and see if they have TSP. I found Sunnyside phosphate free TSP on amazon for 3.58/lb, but hope to find it cheaper still.
 
just so everyone knows. i went into my local kroger and the kroger home sense brand oxygen cleaner is exact same ingredients as the sun brand. a 56oz tub cost $4.69.

i also saw a OXI laundry booster made by ALL with the same ingredients but the interesting thing is it's made by the Sun products corp.....
 
We don't have Korger's out here, but I took a look online. This product:

how%2Bto%2Bcompare%2Bgrocery%2Bstore%2Bunit%2Bprice.jpg


Says compare to Oxiclean Versatile, which is different than the Versatile Free version, so likely has scent added to it as well.

Probably NDB for most folks, but some people are pretty adverse to using scented cleaners in their home brewery, so wanted to point it out.
 
Let me start by saying I'm a beginner and initially used bleach as cleaner and sanitizer. I'm now using bleach as cleaner and starsan as sanitizer. I wash bottles with soap, but always sanitize with starsan prior to bottling. I plan on using this PBW recipe as my future cleaner.

My perhaps stupid question...the argument against bleach or soap is the difficulty of getting soap and bleach out and risk of having bleach or soap flavor to beer. So can I use PBW soaking to get rid of soap and bleach smell in my current equipment? To put another way, is PBW more powerful than bleach? Please tell me I don't need to replace current glass and plastic equipment.
 
TripelDubbel said:
Let me start by saying I'm a beginner and initially used bleach as cleaner and sanitizer. I'm now using bleach as cleaner and starsan as sanitizer. I wash bottles with soap, but always sanitize with starsan prior to bottling. I plan on using this PBW recipe as my future cleaner.

My perhaps stupid question...the argument against bleach or soap is the difficulty of getting soap and bleach out and risk of having bleach or soap flavor to beer. So can I use PBW soaking to get rid of soap and bleach smell in my current equipment? To put another way, is PBW more powerful than bleach? Please tell me I don't need to replace current glass and plastic equipment.
Click to expand...

Bleach requires lots of rinsing.
Some soap can leave behind other substances that effect head retention, etc.
Pbw rinses clean and the oxy element "scrubs" for you, saving you some trouble.
Starsan is no rinse. Look into using starsan in a spray bottle(use distilled water for long term storage).
 
Thanks for the reply JWin. I agree with your comments, UT my question is around what to do now that I have already used bleach on equipment. If there is any residue from bleach or soap, will PBW and/or starsan take care of it before my next batch?
 
TripelDubbel said:
Thanks for the reply JWin. I agree with your comments, UT my question is around what to do now that I have already used bleach on equipment. If there is any residue from bleach or soap, will PBW and/or starsan take care of it before my next batch?
Click to expand...

Rinse all hdpe and glass well and brew on. Set it out in the sun for a day if you would like.
Old timers used bleach all the time.
Now, on soft rubber/plastic, could be an issue if any reaction occured.
If your hose feels gummy or tacky, toss it. Hose is cheap.
 
I gave up on finding cheap oxy substitute and purchased Sodium Percarbonate & Sodium Carbonate separately. Had to order an ass load of the Sodium percarbonate for a good price but I've driven this baby pretty low.

Got the sodium percarbonate via amazon http://www.amazon.com/dp/B016CW5N3I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 ($1.75 lb) Yes i bought a lot of it. (I keep telling myself i'll use it elsewhere but it's still a freakin lot of it. Won't need to buy oxy for a while)

Got the rest from "Jet". never used them before but they gave a discount for multi items and a discount for first time customer. and free shipping over $35.

Red Devil: $2.52/lb
Super washing soda (Sodium carbonate): $.87/lb
Seventh Generation : $1.25/lb
 
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So I've been using this mix to soak bottles for label removal and I've noticed it doesn't do as good of a job as straight up oxy free... there is still goop on my New Belgium bottles and usually those come out sparkly clean with straight oxy. Is this an indication that my mix is off?

Edit: when I doubled the dose to two tbsp, it worked perfectly. I suppose half of my sink holds more water than I thought.
 

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