Higher FG question

[ChappysBrewing]

Hello! So a few things I have been running into lately and something is up and I am not sure what to do. So I make beers quite a bit as well I enjoy it and I have enough kegs to keep an army going. The 1 thing I have been running into lately it seems that my OG will be around 1.060 maybe a little higher or lower depending on the style/type of beer and what abv I am shooting for. Now I let it sit in primary for at least 2 weeks to let it do its thing although after reading have found it should already be done by then. Anyways, I then go ahead and move it into a secondary for at least another 2 weeks for it to clear before kegging. My OG yesterday for 2 different beers were 1.022 and 1.025 and for the life of me do not know whats going on.

I had krausen and it lasted for over a week on both so I figured the yeast was doing everything well. I used White Labs and with a 1.03 starter for over a day. Shaking the crap out of it often and having aluminum foil wrapped around the top to give some oxidation. Both batches were a little over 5 gallons so maybe a little more liquid to yeast and maybe I am just underpitching. After brewing I drop temps to around 75 and let it either sit over night and then add yeast or add it after its dropped to where I want it and leave it in my house which is normally set at 68ish so my temps I would think would be alright. The beer smelled amazing and is crystal clear, especially for a hefeweizen, but just odd that I have had a couple of beers that have done the same thing with higher FG and not sure what to do or how to fix it. Thanks in advance!

 

[rprego]

Are you doing all-grain batches? If so, what are your measured mash temps? It may also be worth checking your thermometer in an ice bath and boiling water, which should each read 32 F and 212 F. If either of those readings is off, you may not actually be mashing at the temperatures you think.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I am doing all grain batches. I have a single tier HERMS system with a continuous re-circulation and for this beer I simply did a single stage of 152 for 60 min and mash out at 168 for 10 or so minutes and then fly sparge to the boil kettle for however long that takes. I will check my thermometers, but they were all on 3 different kegs with thermowells so I wouldnt think they should be off too much but could be it. My top part of my mash as it goes though the HERMS coil is around 10 degrees hotter as that seems to be the key number to keep my mash in the exact temp I am shooting for.

 

[bajaedition]

do you re-calibrate your thermometers?
are you using high amounts of specialty grains?
Try lowering your temps of your mash
how are you measuring your FG? refractometer or hydrometer?
How long is the mash for?

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Na, normally I just let the thermometers roll but I guess will have to do some more checking to make sure they're calibrated correctly.
Na, I keep my specialty grains at a minimal. Especially this beer as it was a hefeweizen and dont really have any specialty grains. I am using a refractometer for all checks throughout the process. Mash is an hour at 152, 10 min at 168 and then lauter to my BK while fly sparging until I get the amount I want. Overall it just seems that it starts out at a good abv but after the yeast, doesnt seem to get it down to the 1.01 range that I am wanting it to get for higher abv. Maybe im lacking on the amount of yeast. Just something is up as this isnt the only beer. I had a stout that started at 1.065 but ended at 1.035.

 

[Yooper]

Na, normally I just let the thermometers roll but I guess will have to do some more checking to make sure they're calibrated correctly.
Na, I keep my specialty grains at a minimal. Especially this beer as it was a hefeweizen and dont really have any specialty grains. I am using a refractometer for all checks throughout the process. Mash is an hour at 152, 10 min at 168 and then lauter to my BK while fly sparging until I get the amount I want. Overall it just seems that it starts out at a good abv but after the yeast, doesnt seem to get it down to the 1.01 range that I am wanting it to get for higher abv. Maybe im lacking on the amount of yeast. Just something is up as this isnt the only beer. I had a stout that started at 1.065 but ended at 1.035.

That's why.

A refractometer reads the refraction of light in a sugar (sucrose) solution. We use it to read maltose, which is usually close enough.

However, once fermentation starts, alcohol skews the refraction of light, making the reading inaccurate. You can still see when the brix stops changing, so you know that fermentation is finished, but the reading itself is useless.

If you don't want to use an accurate hydrometer at that point, you can guestimate the actual FG by using some software. Here's the best one I found: http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/
It is more accurate if you input your actual wort correction factor (which helps make the readings more accurate since our wort is mostly maltose and not sucrose).

I just use a hydrometer after fermentation starts, as it's most accurate.

 

[jurgenph]

I am using a refractometer for all checks throughout the process.

Just something is up as this isnt the only beer. I had a stout that started at 1.065 but ended at 1.035.

are you using a calculator to correct your refractometer readings post fermentation?

when i plug those numbers in, your actual FG is 1.017, on a "measured" 1.035 from 1.065 OG


J.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

That's why.

A refractometer reads the refraction of light in a sugar (sucrose) solution. We use it to read maltose, which is usually close enough.

However, once fermentation starts, alcohol skews the refraction of light, making the reading inaccurate. You can still see when the brix stops changing, so you know that fermentation is finished, but the reading itself is useless.

If you don't want to use an accurate hydrometer at that point, you can guestimate the actual FG by using some software. Here's the best one I found: http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/
It is more accurate if you input your actual wort correction factor (which helps make the readings more accurate since our wort is mostly maltose and not sucrose).

I just use a hydrometer after fermentation starts, as it's most accurate.

No ****! Wow, so using the refractometer really is just a waste and their way to sell it really just isnt the case. Can I use it to get my OG and then just use a hydrometer to measure the FG and then subtract the 2 to get my abv then? Really a shame that I cant use the same piece of equipment to get both of my measurements and get an accurate abv. Blowing my mind sir.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

are you using a calculator to correct your refractometer readings post fermentation?

when i plug those numbers in, your actual FG is 1.017, on a "measured" 1.035 from 1.065 OG


J.

I was not sir. I had no clue that I needed to use a calculator to get that measurement. I was just using my refractometer to take my OG and then my FG and thinking I could subtract the 2 to get my ABV but apparently out of the last 2 posters that is not the case.

I know my beers taste fine if not even a little higher as far as abv is concerned when I drink them, and have been shocked thinking they are only 3% beers and knew something was off. So now will find a calculator and know that I gotta do things differently to get a true abv.

 

[jurgenph]

So now will find a calculator and know that I gotta do things differently to get a true abv.

FWIW... i use an app called brixcalc on my phone.
but thre are plenty of online versions as well.


J.

 

[Yooper]

No ****! Wow, so using the refractometer really is just a waste and their way to sell it really just isnt the case. Can I use it to get my OG and then just use a hydrometer to measure the FG and then subtract the 2 to get my abv then? Really a shame that I cant use the same piece of equipment to get both of my measurements and get an accurate abv. Blowing my mind sir.

I'm not a "sir", but it's nice that you're so polite.

You can use it, with the limitation I noted above.

The thing is, the refractometer is indispensable to me doing preboil gravities, and post boil readings. It also is great for checking the gravity of the sparge runnings on the fly.

The readings need to be converted as well, although many people don't do that. What I mean is this- when you get your refractometer, it should be calibrated against the hydrometer in the wort. Again, refractometers are designed to read sucrose, not our combination of maltose/maltitriose/etc. So if you can look at some of the refractometer tools (like in Beersmith or other software), you can see there is a "wort correction factor". That's calibrated with a hydrometer, so you get a more accurate reading using the refractometer with wort.

Once you have the wort correction factor, you can correct it in the finishing SG tool I linked to above, and get a decent OG and FG, using the refractometer.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

FWIW... i use an app called brixcalc on my phone.
but thre are plenty of online versions as well.


J.

Downloaded the exact same 1 today. What do you use to determine the Brix based on the refractometer measurements? Is there another map/chart for that or just go look it up each time you are trying to figure it out?

 

[jurgenph]

Downloaded the exact same 1 today. What do you use to determine the Brix based on the refractometer measurements? Is there another map/chart for that or just go look it up each time you are trying to figure it out?

i use a refractomerter with dual scale brix and SG
or you can use a SG to brix converter as well


J.

 

[Yooper]

i use a refractomerter with dual scale brix and SG
or you can use a SG to brix converter as well


J.

Yes, but those conversions aren't accurate. They are ok, (as in "close enough") in the lower gravities, but generally the SG/brix refractometers really don't "match up" to an actual SG reading once you get to a higher gravity.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Yes, but those conversions aren't accurate. They are ok, (as in "close enough") in the lower gravities, but generally the SG/brix refractometers really don't "match up" to an actual SG reading once you get to a higher gravity.

So more or less stay with 1 source. Either go with the SG all the way through or the Brix all the way through to get a true/close range. I will have to check my refractometer when I get home. I know it has 2 different ranges on it 1 being what I thought was my OG abv and the other I was thinking was Temperature, but will definitely have to look haha. I am just glad that my numbers arent as bad as what I was thinking and that the yeast may have been actually doing all of its job and run its full course instead of potentially just doing half way and having a sweet/lob abv beer.

 

[Yooper]

So more or less stay with 1 source. Either go with the SG all the way through or the Brix all the way through to get a true/close range. I will have to check my refractometer when I get home. I know it has 2 different ranges on it 1 being what I thought was my OG abv and the other I was thinking was Temperature, but will definitely have to look haha. I am just glad that my numbers arent as bad as what I was thinking and that the yeast may have been actually doing all of its job and run its full course instead of potentially just doing half way and having a sweet/lob abv beer.

Oh, no, you don't have to stay with one source, as long as you understand what it means.

What is best is when you use the refractometer, use the brix scale (the SG scale on the other side is pretty inaccurate as the numbers get higher). Then, just convert it to SG if you "read" in SG the way I do. A quick on-the-fly method during brewing is just to multiply by four (so if you have 12 brix, it's about 48 +/-) and then use the conversion software to get the actual reading. My wort correction factor is 1.02861 so I use Beersmith to convert that for me. I also used beersmith to get that wort correction factor. That means my refractometer is dead on with all pre-fermentation readings to my hydrometer. Here's where I do it in Beersmith:



Then, Beersmith gives me the OG in brix. If my brix is 12, using this tool, my SG is 1.047. Not far off from my guess at 1.048 during brewing, and great for my purposes.

Then, after fermentation I generally use my hydrometer. But if not, I use this tool to guestimate the FG: http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/ using my own wort correction factor of 1.02861 where it says 1.040, and it's not all that bad.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Oh, no, you don't have to stay with one source, as long as you understand what it means.

What is best is when you use the refractometer, use the brix scale (the SG scale on the other side is pretty inaccurate as the numbers get higher). Then, just convert it to SG if you "read" in SG the way I do. A quick on-the-fly method during brewing is just to multiply by four (so if you have 12 brix, it's about 48 +/-) and then use the conversion software to get the actual reading. My wort correction factor is 1.02861 so I use Beersmith to convert that for me. I also used beersmith to get that wort correction factor. That means my refractometer is dead on with all pre-fermentation readings to my hydrometer. Here's where I do it in Beersmith:

View attachment 398327

Then, Beersmith gives me the OG in brix. If my brix is 12, using this tool, my SG is 1.047. Not far off from my guess at 1.048 during brewing, and great for my purposes.

Then, after fermentation I generally use my hydrometer. But if not, I use this tool to guestimate the FG: http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/ using my own wort correction factor of 1.02861 where it says 1.040, and it's not all that bad.

Woah awesome! Okay so use the Brix (left side) of the refractometer as well as take a reading at the same time with a hydrometer. Input them into beer smith (I have and didnt even know it had a refractometer input) which will give me that factor. When its time for the FG, take a hydrometer reading and input into the calculator with the same factor reading and walla?

 

[Yooper]

Woah awesome! Okay so use the Brix (left side) of the refractometer as well as take a reading at the same time with a hydrometer. Input them into beer smith (I have and didnt even know it had a refractometer input) which will give me that factor. When its time for the FG, take a hydrometer reading and input into the calculator with the same factor reading and walla?

Well, you got the first part right.....................

I suggest using the sean terrill refractometer tool for the Fg. I don't know if Beersmith's is accurate with the latest build, but in the past it has NOT been accurate for me once fermentation ended.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Well, you got the first part right.....................

I suggest using the sean terrill refractometer tool for the Fg. I don't know if Beersmith's is accurate with the latest build, but in the past it has NOT been accurate for me once fermentation ended.

Oh I totally will use the Sean Terrill tool! The only thing you're changing in the tool though is the "wort correction factor" that you get from beersmith. I wont go with beersmith's measurement if they still have issues after multiple updates (kinda bizarre if thats all you do for a living but whatever).

 

[jurgenph]

Yes, but those conversions aren't accurate. They are ok, (as in "close enough") in the lower gravities, but generally the SG/brix refractometers really don't "match up" to an actual SG reading once you get to a higher gravity.

it's not a conversion, it's a dual scale. how can it not be accurate?

i've tested/compared it to a hydrometer and it was close enough that to my eyes, they matched up just about perfectly.

unless i mistunderstood waht you're trying to say

the "conversion" calculators may not be 100% accurate, but close enough here, is close enough for me. i don't even use a correction factor, as both my hydromerter and refractometer seem to read pretty much the same.


J.

 

[Yooper]

it's not a conversion, it's a dual scale. how can it not be accurate?

i've tested/compared it to a hydrometer and it was close enough that to my eyes, they matched up just about perfectly.

unless i mistunderstood waht you're trying to say

the "conversion" calculators may not be 100% accurate, but close enough here, is close enough for me. i don't even use a correction factor, as both my hydromerter and refractometer seem to read pretty much the same.


J.

Because there is no way that SG and brix can be a "dual scale". It just doesn't work.

It's ok for lower gravity checks, but once you get a high gravity wort it won't match up appropriately. It just can't. Part of it is because a refractometer (even using the proper wort correction factor) is only accurate to about .2-.3, and as the reading gets higher, that makes a much bigger difference. Because the SG scale on the dual versions is linear and goes up in that linear fashion, it means it just can't be correct. The actual relationship between SG and brix is NOT linear.

http://byo.com/hops/item/1313-refractometers has some great reading on refractometers and their usefulness and some of their limitations in brewing.

 

[bajaedition]

That's why.

A refractometer reads the refraction of light in a sugar (sucrose) solution. We use it to read maltose, which is usually close enough.

However, once fermentation starts, alcohol skews the refraction of light, making the reading inaccurate. You can still see when the brix stops changing, so you know that fermentation is finished, but the reading itself is useless.

If you don't want to use an accurate hydrometer at that point, you can guestimate the actual FG by using some software. Here's the best one I found: http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/
It is more accurate if you input your actual wort correction factor (which helps make the readings more accurate since our wort is mostly maltose and not sucrose).

I just use a hydrometer after fermentation starts, as it's most accurate.

thanks for the input, I had to go do a job and was away. I asked the questions to the OP about his methods and had to leave.
I love my refractometer, I learned to use it when I apprenticed at a brewery. But I realize that after fermentation starts, it is just a educated guess to use one and you revert back to the old trusty hydrometer. OK at the brewery level, a small sample for testing is negligible to total production and at the home brew level it is half a beer. I therefore adjust my batches to include a 1/2 gallon extra just for testing and loss to racking and trub. I do not brew to save money, I brew to have great beer on tap at my house. and not to have to depend of the whims of the latest fad in craft brewing for good beer. The current over production of really bad IPAs currently in style have limited the choice of other styles I want to drink. The craft brew commercial market is getting as bad as the major breweries in selection of anything good to drink.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

thanks for the input, I had to go do a job and was away. I asked the questions to the OP about his methods and had to leave.
I love my refractometer, I learned to use it when I apprenticed at a brewery. But I realize that after fermentation starts, it is just a educated guess to use one and you revert back to the old trusty hydrometer. OK at the brewery level, a small sample for testing is negligible to total production and at the home brew level it is half a beer. I therefore adjust my batches to include a 1/2 gallon extra just for testing and loss to racking and trub. I do not brew to save money, I brew to have great beer on tap at my house. and not to have to depend of the whims of the latest fad in craft brewing for good beer. The current over production of really bad IPAs currently in style have limited the choice of other styles I want to drink. The craft brew commercial market is getting as bad as the major breweries in selection of anything good to drink.

Yeah I have to agree. I have been disappointed with a lot of craft breweries here recently. I live in CO and am lucky there are soo many and a few are quite good but quite a few just don't make that good of beer. Although I have only been brewing for a few years, its turned from a hobby into a passion where I just love making beer and trying new things. Id eventually love to try and open my own craft brewery, just have a lot of planning and work to get it accomplished but could be well worth it in the end. I just think I can do it better than a lot of the 1s at least that are locally plus have the population and interest to survive compared to other locations although the market could be a little saturated. We do have some niche markets close by such as Paradox Brewery which is a sour brewery and are trying tons of new experiments with aging and has been fun to try. Only issue is its in the middle of nowhere and an hour drive away.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

thanks for the input, I had to go do a job and was away. I asked the questions to the OP about his methods and had to leave.
I love my refractometer, I learned to use it when I apprenticed at a brewery. But I realize that after fermentation starts, it is just a educated guess to use one and you revert back to the old trusty hydrometer. OK at the brewery level, a small sample for testing is negligible to total production and at the home brew level it is half a beer. I therefore adjust my batches to include a 1/2 gallon extra just for testing and loss to racking and trub. I do not brew to save money, I brew to have great beer on tap at my house. and not to have to depend of the whims of the latest fad in craft brewing for good beer. The current over production of really bad IPAs currently in style have limited the choice of other styles I want to drink. The craft brew commercial market is getting as bad as the major breweries in selection of anything good to drink.

I have to agree with you. We have multiple breweries here close to where I live in CO and only a handful really are good and make a few quality beers. Others are niche and great such as the Paradox Brewery, its just out in the middle of nowhere. Brewing has just turned into a large hobby if not a passion of mine and would like to try and pursue opening my own one day. Just have a lot of planning and work to do as financing will be the biggest hurdle in the end. I don't do things cheap myself. I buy grains by the bag and store to save money and have like 6 different kinds at least on hand. Plus of course I went a little crazy and bought a coca cola refrigerator to store all my ingredients and bottled beers and have 2 keezers and a fermentation chamber to play around with whatever I want. A matter of just trying new things and not being afraid of failure.

 

[bajaedition]

not to hijack

Chappys I noticed a trend starting way back with Arrogant bastard. It was at first just a small release but it went over really good. with in a few years there was double bastard, then other breweries introduced super IPAs and now it is out of control.
the biggest demise is that I live less than 100 miles from San Marcos, where Stone brewery is, and I can no longer find Stone Pale Ale in a market, why, because it lost self space to a huge selection of super IPAs. Stone Pale Ale is one of the best pale ales produced. I have to drive 40 miles to get it now.
There are really great beers also being displaced by the current apple cider fad. I mean how many hard apple ciders do we need. But if one company gets a hit product, all the others try to gain a share of that market.
We are seeing a loss of creativity and individuality in the craft market as the players are beginning to try to sell numbers at the expense of individual taste profiles we all loved when we responded to the emerging market. Seeing them gobbled up by the big 3 does not bid well because they sell out for a profit, the craft beer industry was built on taste, not sales percentages.

Dropping the mike