High pH with BIAB?

[Guidry]

Been trying to get some water issues worked out and I verified my salts additions amounts on at least 2 different spreadsheets or applications. My mash pH was 5.8 where both "predictors" said it should have been 5.4.

I think I read somewhere that the higher water/grain ratio might lead to higher mash pH, but I can't find that reference again.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[beersk]

Yes, the high water to grain ratio causes high pH just like they say you shouldn't steep your steeping grains in the full volume for extract brewing, rather a ratio of 1.5 - 2qt per pound. You need to adjust the water down with gypsum/calcium chloride and/or some kind of acid addition. Otherwise, for most beers, you'll have some tannin issues and likely under attenuation from a high mash pH.

 

[1MadScientist]

Yes, the high water to grain ratio causes high pH just like they say you shouldn't steep your steeping grains in the full volume for extract brewing, rather a ratio of 1.5 - 2qt per pound. You need to adjust the water down with gypsum/calcium chloride and/or some kind of acid addition. Otherwise, for most beers, you'll have some tannin issues and likely under attenuation from a high mash pH.

Where do you see this?

 

[beersk]

Where do you see this?

What do you mean? I've read it multiple places like How to Brew and various others who've been brewing a long time, namely Denny Conn. With a high water to grist ratio, the pH is going to be much higher.

 

[1MadScientist]

I use http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/. On my last brew, a Bells Two Hearted ale I did a full volume BIAB with a 2.41 qt/lb. I brought the mash water down as if I was going to do a 1.5 qt/lb mash. The pH went down from 5.39 to 5.38.

I don't see what you mean beersk?

 

[1MadScientist]

beersk, I am only basing this off of the calculator, maybe they don't handle such a high L:G ratio. I don't have a pH meter.

I just read something from 'Thirsty Boy' that touches on this about BIAB; http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25151&start=8

So, is it generally .4 pH higher than calculators say you should get?

 

[1MadScientist]

Been trying to get some water issues worked out and I verified my salts additions amounts on at least 2 different spreadsheets or applications. My mash pH was 5.8 where both "predictors" said it should have been 5.4.

I think I read somewhere that the higher water/grain ratio might lead to higher mash pH, but I can't find that reference again.

Can anyone confirm?

What was your liquor to grain ratio?

 

[Guidry]

Ratio was 4:1 (qts:lbs)

Every other target was hit almost exactly, but the pH was high.

 

[1MadScientist]

This is a real good thread; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/#post1677601
and contains a pdf of Kai's.

From what I read in that thread, a high L:G ratio does not cause the pH to rise by much at all, quoted from jds "essentially negligible for the home brewer".

Kai tested out to 5 l/kg. Guidry, you are at 8.35 l/kg, but still, this shouldn't have raised your pH too much at all.

 

[beersk]

1MadScientist, it's common knowledge, at least in extract brewing, that if you steep your 1-2lbs of specialty grains in 5 gallons of water, the pH is going to be way too high and you'll get tannins in your beer. This is more of a potential issue in brewing in a bag because of the higher water to grist ratio. So for not responding sooner. I do my calculations in Bru'n water and haven't had astringency in any of my beers when doing BIAB.

 

[beersk]

Whoops, double post...

 

[shuckit]

Anyone actually measuring his/her pH with a meter?

 

[Guidry]

I do and my last brew with a grain/water ratio of about 3 hit right on the predicted pH.

 

[1MadScientist]

I do and my last brew with a grain/water ratio of about 3 hit right on the predicted pH.

So what has changed since post #1?

 

[Guidry]

Well, the brew I asked about was the previous beer. I will say, it was a blonde ale. Next brew was a porter so I think the dark grains helped more with the pH.

I've usually been close on the mash pH when I treat my water, but that blonde was the first time I tried a light colored beer with BIAB.

 

[shuckit]

I'd like to know the pH people are getting on light colored biab mashes.

 

[Guidry]

My brew which spawned this thread was a light blonde, BIAB version of the Centennial Blonde. Treated the water and included some acid malt. Water calculator predicted a mash pH of 5.4 but I measured 5.84.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Use brunwater, it will show you that a high water to grain ratio gives a high pH. It is common knowledge and it has made my BIAB a little difficult at first. I ignored this fact and ruined my beers. I got a Hannah checker pH meter, adjusted with acid and gypsum and my pH was on target=beers good. Another thing I gig bored was pulse width modulation for electric boiling. Without PWM and electric brew, you will eventually scorch the wort. That was my second issue that took a few great brews with it.

 

[shuckit]

I borrowed a ph meter for last weekend's brew. Based on my water and the ez_water_calculator spreadsheet, I had to acidify my mash. pH meter confirmed I hit my mash ph number. Interesting experiment. I will continue to adjust my mash water.

 

[Ridire]

I am very new to water profiles and do not understand all of this. I used bru'nwater for my last brew and entered my grain bill and my water volumes. How close is this program, typically, to estimating the real ph? I have now way of measuring ph and was hoping bru'nwater was fairly accurate.

I am starting with RO water and adding minerals, so my beginning water profile shouldn't cause me any issues.


EDIT: I also use sparge water to get to my pre-boil volumes. I do not add any sodium bicarbonate to my sparge water but I did add it to my mash water. Is this a bad idea with BIAB? I am now concerned that I created tannins with the higher ph in the mash waster caused by the sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

The more I learn, the more confused I become.

 

[Zzyzx3]

John Palmer's new book has a ton of good info about water. It can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381993/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It can get scientific at times, but has a ton of good info and has everything you should need to know about water, pH, and how it affects the anatomy of beer.