Here Should be an easy one for the beer knurds

[bracconiere]

ok so for my calorie counting....i'm notcing a problem with my bathroom scale not obying me like it usually does since i've been taking a break from brewing beer...


so, i'm thinking it's because i'm not calculating and adding how much sucrose is left over in my hard seltzer...i can get a good idea of the ABW with a refrac, and hydro...but i'm thinking with that info, i should be able to calculate how much sugar is left over also with some math?

so i ferment 12lbs of sucrose in 9-10 gallons of water and it goes down to ~.992, beersmith says it should finish at .987...and i think that's the problem with my scale acting up...

i add half gallon of oj too 4.5 gallons, no problem there, i can just add the juice to the recipe, and it's automatic...

well anyway that's probably being over complicated, because i'm trying to have fun. if sucrose has a density of 1.59g/cm3, ethanol .789 g/cm3...and water ~1.000...


and i have a solution with about 6.8% ABW totalling 18300g's (5gallons) and it has a SG of 1.000 how many carbs does it have?

right now with just the juice calculated i get a total carb amount of 229g's? but i think it's more?

 

[Dland]

I don't know if you are smarter than me or not, but you seem to have a lot more free time...

One could argue, I suppose, that that is proof toward you being smarter...

 

[bracconiere]

I don't know if you are smarter than me or not, but you seem to have a lot more free time...

One could argue, I suppose, that that is proof toward you being smarter...

well, if i was smart, i'd be able to calculate this on my own....i'm thinking some combination of multiplying, dividing, all three variables in this solution somehow...

worst case time will tell and i can reverse figure out in a few months, just watching the scale...kinda solve for x sorta thing..

and i only made it through the 4th grade, so i find this kinda stuff pretty cool! (like when i learned how to calculate tangents so i could build a arch with a calculator! it was a fun project! )

edit i mean i know that sugar has a density of 1.59, there is ~15100g's of water at 1.000, ~1210g's ethanol, 64floz of oj, with 229g's of carbs...wait that gives me an idea....reverse do this in beersmith!

 

[bracconiere]

fraid beersmith didn't help...

 

[bwible]

If it goes to 1.000 or under then there is no residual sugar left. It’s fermented “dry”.

 

[Sammy86]

 

[pvtpublic]

If it goes to 1.000 or under then there is no residual sugar left. It’s fermented “dry”.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the alcohol content and OG. 1.000, being the SG of distilled water, anything under that would be because of alcohol lowering the weight. Unlike beer, meads and wines can have a light sweetness at 1.000 due to how much sugars are present and a lack of other constituents present in beers. And seltzers have almost nothing in them other than fermentables, so they would be able to reach an incredibly low SG, so long as fermentation is able to fully attenuate.

 

[catalanotte]

I am just enough of a "knurd" to have solved this problem before for other reasons. Not including your OJ form what was given I am assuming you started with about 1.057 OG, which matches reporting that your FG was .992 and 6.8% ABW. Also lines up with 12 lbs of sucrose in 9-10 gal.

If it goes to 1.000 or under then there is no residual sugar left. It’s fermented “dry”.

Not quite the case, because the FG is showing apparent attenuation, not real attenuation due to the density of the water/ethanol blend being less than 1g/ml which is the basis for SG. I calculated real attenuation as 92% vs apparent of 114% which leaves about 8% residual sugar.


You need to mass balance the wort pre and post fermentation, accepting some minor errors in this approach due to some very negligible things that I have not taken the time to figure out like the volume loss due to CO2 production and any losses of water vapor through the airlock.

I believe you (@bracconiere) posted the basic fermentation formula earlier which is correct
1 mol of sucrose ferments into 2 mol of ethanol and 2 mol of co2.

Based on your final gravity of .992, you have produced .992 * 8.34 lb/gal * 10 gal = 82.7328 lbs of fermented liquor. You started with 1.057 * 8.34 * 10 gal = 88.1538 lbs. Neglecting any minor losses, the mass difference left the fermenter by way of CO2 bubbles. 88.1539 - 82.7328 = 5.4211 lbs of CO2. CO2 has a molar mass of 44g/mol so you produced 5.4211 lb * 454 g/lb / 44g/mol = 55.94 mol of CO2. Based on the fermentation formula above you used 1 mol of sucrose for every 2 mol of co2 so you consumed 55.94 / 2 = 27.97 mol of sucrose. Molar mass of sucrose is 180 g/mol so you fermented 27.97 mol * 180g/mol / 454 g/lb = 11.09 lbs of sucrose. Since you stared with 12 pounds your real attenuation is 11.09 lb / 12 lb = 92% leaving .91 lb of sucrose in solution or 413 grams (pure carbohydrate). Divide this by 10 gal at 128 oz/gal and I get about .32 g of carbos per oz of end product.

This approach also drives the ABW equation since 55.94 mol of ethanol weighs 55.92 * 46 g/mol / 454 g/lb = 5.666 lb. ABW = 5.666 lb (weight of ethanol) / 82.7328 lb (total wt of liqour) = 6.8% ABW, Ethanol has a density of 6.5845 lb/gal so you have 5.666/6.5845 = .8605 gal of ethanol in 10 gal of liquor (assuming negligible volume loss from CO2) .8605g / 10 g = 8.61 % ABV.

This does not include your OJ addition, which if added post fermentation, should be an easy addition to this total. Hope this helps.

 

[bracconiere]

i like the molar formula....but i think what i'm looking for is something kinda simpiler....if ethanol has a gravity of .789, water 1, and sugar 1.59....exactly how do i solve for sugar knowing water and ethanol by density? i mean if i KNOW it's 6.x% ethanol by weight, i have 5 gallons (18300g's) i should be able to take a gravity and either subtract something from it, or multiply it by the difference of these substances? i know there's this calculator:

http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml
but honestly, experience has told me it's wrong somehow.... just like @doug293cz pointing out that beersmith thinks natural carbing in a keg gives you twice the co2...

edit: i don't want sound like a tottler that want's daddy to wipe his ass...but like if i know something is mostly water and ethanol, i know it SHOULD be something like .990, but it's actually .998, would i subtract .008 from 1.59 then multi ply it by something? those are the lines i'm thinking along....

 

[DuncB]

@catalanotte
Great work that, I'm book marking this to read again and again. So informative and takes me back to my A level chemistry and biochemistry.

 

[bracconiere]

^^ Agree...

i think i just need some simple algebra skills though...

if i know i have 1240g's of ethanol at 0.789, that leaves 17,060g's of water at 1.000...which should be we'll say 0.989...but the hydro reads .998-1.000 or something...


and assuming the only other thing it could be raising the gravity was sugar with a gravity of 1.59 a gram a cc...i'm sure there should be some way to solve for how many grams in this 18300 semi water solution?

i've heard people talk about the simple point system with sugar. would that be what i need a refresher on? or like a refractometer, would the presence of ethanol through that off?

 

[DuncB]

Both the water and the sugar are denser than alcohol so the water amount factors in.

 

[bracconiere]

Both the water and the sugar are denser than alcohol so the water amount factors in.

yeah? if it's 18300g's total, or close enough for me..and 6.8% ABWi can subtract the 1240g's ethanol, knowing it's 0.789 per gram, and the mostly remaining water is 1 at 17060g's? how do i solve for the assumed 1.59 per gram that changes the gravity? i know i should be able to solve for this.....

something like doing an avg? multiply them all with their gravity? add them up, then divide by three? or something like that?

 

[TheMadKing]

ok so for my calorie counting....i'm notcing a problem with my bathroom scale not obying me like it usually does since i've been taking a break from brewing beer...


so, i'm thinking it's because i'm not calculating and adding how much sucrose is left over in my hard seltzer...i can get a good idea of the ABW with a refrac, and hydro...but i'm thinking with that info, i should be able to calculate how much sugar is left over also with some math?

so i ferment 12lbs of sucrose in 9-10 gallons of water and it goes down to ~.992, beersmith says it should finish at .987...and i think that's the problem with my scale acting up...

i add half gallon of oj too 4.5 gallons, no problem there, i can just add the juice to the recipe, and it's automatic...

well anyway that's probably being over complicated, because i'm trying to have fun. if sucrose has a density of 1.59g/cm3, ethanol .789 g/cm3...and water ~1.000...


and i have a solution with about 6.8% ABW totalling 18300g's (5gallons) and it has a SG of 1.000 how many carbs does it have?

right now with just the juice calculated i get a total carb amount of 229g's? but i think it's more?

You seem to be using "carbs" and "calories" interchangeably and they are not the same thing. If you are counting calories, you'll need to account for the calories in ethanol as well if you're not doing that already.

I know in a truly or a white claw they claim 100 calories and that's almost entirely from alcohol.

 

[catalanotte]

something like doing an avg? multiply them all with their gravity? add them up, then divide by three? or something like that?

Sorry, but there is not an easy multiply by 2, carry the one, and subtract 4 answer. This is not a simple equation.

The process I used above can be simplified by using a derived formula for Real Extract, but you need to work in deg Plato, not SG for this. There is a good article and formula below for Real Extract and lots of SG to Plato conversions online.

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/ewOeMFnY4x/
RE=0.1808×°P(of initial wort)+0.8192×°P(of final beer)

Based on your example the starting Plato is about 13.85 (1.057)
The FG of .992 is about -2.06 P (yes, negative because SG <1.000)

Using the Real Extract formula above the RE in deg Plato is .82 P. This means the .82% by weight of your post fermentation liquor is still sugar. .992 * 8.34 * 10 gal * .0082 = .76 lbs of residual sugar in 10 gallons.

Different approach, relatively similar results.

 

[DuncB]

That's a useful formula.

I suppose if you had access to a blood sugar measuring device ( for diabetes ) you could actually quantify the sugar left behind.
But as @TheMadKing says the main calories are in the alcohol.
But if this ferment of yours is fairly consistent then calories of 6.25% of the sugar weight and calories of the alcohol produced should give you a figure ( which as you say has been shrinking or increasing ? ) difficult to tell from your opening statement.
" .i'm notcing a problem with my bathroom scale not obying me like it usually does since i've been taking a break from brewing beer..."

 

[sibelman]

I suspect @bracconiere's weight change is just an entertaining entry point into this wonderland of gravity calculations. Here's a possibly related question: how much does the caloric content of sugar water change if it's all converted to alcohol? The release CO2 and water have no calories, but energy has also been released, so I'm guessing the calories have dropped.

 

[bracconiere]

I suspect @bracconiere's weight change is just an entertaining entry point into this wonderland of gravity calculations. Here's a possibly related question: how much does the caloric content of sugar water change if it's all converted to alcohol? The release CO2 and water have no calories, but energy has also been released, so I'm guessing the calories have dropped.

thus the light beer craze! unfortanatly, even though you lose 4 calories a gram for sucrose at 342 a mol, you get 7 calories a gram for 2 mols of ethanol 46 grams a mol...so the loss in calories is minimal....

edit: and i'm still not sure if yeast use sugar for energy, or just oxygen to breath?

 

[DuncB]

Ahh but is a glass of seltzer lighter than a glass of beer of the same volume?

 

[bracconiere]

Ahh but is a glass of seltzer lighter than a glass of beer of the same volume?

edit: in my experience beer weigh's more then seltzer water at 1.000, instead of .996-5, but i think once gluco is done with beer..if the yeast can't digest it neither can i, because my scale obeys assuming beer is 'dry' at that with 168 calories a 8% 12 oz pour....seltzer water is acting up thinking around 170 calories....

well hell if i have a good enough scale and measuring cup, i wouldn't need the hydro reading! and fore mentioned conversion to how many carbs it has!

 

[catalanotte]

Hate to break it to you but there is very nominal difference in total calories based on FG of any fermented beverage. The OG drives total calories, the FG drives the ration of calories from alcohol vs residual sugars.

 

[bracconiere]

The OG drives total calories, the FG drives the ration of calories from alcohol vs residual sugars.

but with the comparison between a refrac, AND hydro? i should be able to tell ABW? i KNOW it's a nominal thing.....usually my scale is within 10-20 calories of prediction though.... 3500 calories a pound? nominal also could be 34-36? close enough? beats the hell out of busting my ass at the gym! all i have to do is sit on my ass drink a few 'crunching' some numbers,


i swear to god, i must have cuddies! for someone not to explain how to calculate the percentage difference between something that has a gravity of .996-7-8-5 instead of .987 assuming it's being f'd with something with a gravity of 1.59...

 

[DuncB]

@catalanotte
Would the loss of Carbon via the CO2 mean that the calories were a little more dilute in the finished product than in the initial water and sugar mix. Assuming an insignificant loss of H20 during the offgassing duration?

 

[bracconiere]

sucrose is 4 calories a gram, 342 a mol.... fermentation gives off 2 mols co2 at 44 grams a mol, 2 mols of ethanol at 46 a mol, and 7 calories a gram....

now if you want to figure the gravity of the situation, ethanol is .789, and sucrose 1.59! lol all mixed up in 1, which is the loneliest number of all...

 

[bracconiere]

342 times 4 is 1368 88+92x7 is 1260.. or something like that....so there is an 8% decrese in calories...but that's not the topic...

 

[catalanotte]

@catalanotte
Would the loss of Carbon via the CO2 mean that the calories were a little more dilute in the finished product than in the initial water and sugar mix. Assuming an insignificant loss of H20 during the offgassing duration?

Possibly the reason for the small drop in total calories for a more highly attenuated beverage, but guessing at the point.

 

[bracconiere]

at this point i'm having a blast with this thread....

so if i can figure how much ethanol is lightening something...1-.789...then how much 1.59 is in it if it's .005 to much then predicted? (you guys crack me up! i hope i'm not a total fool! )

edit: i feel like waterboarding somebody for this... lol (or in my case forcing them to drink my crappy homebrew, lol)

 

[DuncB]

@catalanotte
You are guessing after your epic earlier post.

@bracconiere
I'm most interested in the weight of the " pint" your scales only tell you your weight and of course if you are building muscle with a heavier drink you're getting less fat.

So it's a win. Drink yourself less fat.