Help with salty flavor

[308brewing]

I need help, this is the third batch I've made that is undrinkable with the same salty off flavor. My most recent batch is a pilsner that has been in primary for 15 days. I know not enough time to fully judge before lagering but checked gravity prior to diacetyl rest and had to give the sample a test. It had the same harsh/salty/puckering flavor that I can't seem to fix. I made two blonde ales that had the same flavor that I let completely finish out and age that never went away and completely undrinkable.

I brew full volume biab where I recently started messing with water chemistry to improve my beers but seem to be going backwards. I need any input that anyone can think of. Below is the recipe I used for the pilsner.

Batch Size 5.50gal
BH Efficiency 70%
RO Water: 9.14 gals
Ca: 51ppm Mg: 0ppm Na: 0ppm SO4: 56ppm Cl: 49ppm
Sulfate/Chloride Ratio: 1.2
SG: 1052
IBUs: 35
SRM: 4.1
Boil Length:90mins

Water Adjustments
3.50g Calcium Chloride
3.50g Gypsum
10% phosphoric acid to achieve 5.32ph prior to mashing in

9lbs 9oz pilsner 2 row
12oz Carafoam
4oz Saaz 60min boil
2oz Saaz 15min boil
2oz Saaz 5min boil

Pitched Wyeast2001 at 48 degrees. (Starter was made to achieve 450 billion cells)

Fermentation Temp 50 degrees

Gravity after 15 days in primary is at 1.011.

Sorry for the lengthy post, getting frustrated because I can figure this one out and need anyone's help where my salty off flavor is coming from?? I think it has to do with my water chemistry that I'm doing wrong somewhere. I use beersmith water profile builder for all my calculations and start with 100% RO water and build up from scratch.

Much appreciated!

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok so first problem I see is that

10% phosphoric to 5.32pH before mashing in.

You need to be using a calculator to add enough acid (88% lactic is better than phosphoric) to hit a 5.3 ph at about 20 minutes into the mash. The pH of your water before mashing in doesn't really matter, but the ion content does.

I also would bet that you have a water softener that's adding sodium to your water. What source of base water are you starting with? You might be getting bad RO water, or have an overwhelmed filter with high sodium water

 

[cyanmonkey]

Yes. You're mashing with very acidic water due to the acid addition.

99% sure this is your problem.

 

[JonM]

Are you using distilled water?

And dumb question - are you sure your bottles are labeled correctly? In other words, you're not accidentally addin NaCl when you mean to add CaCl?

 

[308brewing]

TheMadKing

I did measure ph during the mash and got a reading of 5.64, I believe that it is a little on the high end. I've adjusted ph during the mash before but always find it difficult as you have to cool the sample to room temp. I'm sure a calculator for acid addition would make it easier.

As far as the RO water, I get the RO water filled prior to brew day at local grocery store. I've never had the tds measured but assume on best case scenario of closer to 0.

Would the mash ph on the high end of the range cause the salty flavor I'm getting?

I did mix up some samples of gypsum and water and calcium chloride and water to see what kind of flavors they add by themselves when excess is used. The calcium chloride and water I sampled was about the same type of salty harsh flavor I get in my beer. Does my addition of 3.50g look like it is too much?

Thanks for your input!

 

[TheMadKing]

TheMadKing

I did measure ph during the mash and got a reading of 5.64, I believe that it is a little on the high end. I've adjusted ph during the mash before but always find it difficult as you have to cool the sample to room temp. I'm sure a calculator for acid addition would make it easier.

As far as the RO water, I get the RO water filled prior to brew day at local grocery store. I've never had the tds measured but assume on best case scenario of closer to 0.

Would the mash ph on the high end of the range cause the salty flavor I'm getting?

I did mix up some samples of gypsum and water and calcium chloride and water to see what kind of flavors they add by themselves when excess is used. The calcium chloride and water I sampled was about the same type of salty harsh flavor I get in my beer. Does my addition of 3.50g look like it is too much?

Thanks for your input!

Well a 5.6 ph isn't ideal but it shouldn't result in undrinkable beer. How are you measuring pH?

Download the Brunwater calculator. It will help you a ton.

3.5g of CaCl is not unreasonable, I usually add between 1-3g. Are you sure you added 3.5g not oz?

Can you approximate the volume? More like a couple teaspoons or a couple tablespoons?

You should also taste your RO water to see if it's salty.

There may also be some reaction going on with the phosphoric acid and the salts that I'm not aware of. I've never used phosphoric myself.

What do you use for cleaning and sanitizing?

 

[308brewing]

To the best of my knowledge it was 3.5g not oz but could have easily used the wrong measurement on the digital scale but I'm positive the addition by volume was pretty small, maybe 1 teaspoon worth.

I did just taste some left over RO water from the same grocery store and doesn't taste salty at all, taste like normal ro water. I did not taste it on brewday or after salt additions.

I thought I read somewhere that phosphoric acid was more widely used due to less flavor that lactic acid. I do have both but have never tried lactic but will next time.

 

[308brewing]

Yes. You're mashing with very acidic water due to the acid addition.

99% sure this is your problem.

I was surprised to see my mash ph go up after mashing in? I was under the assumption that it was decrease slightly but not much because of the pale malt.

I've check ph meter calibration afterwards and still within spec.

 

[cyanmonkey]

I was surprised to see my mash ph go up after mashing in? I was under the assumption that it was decrease slightly but not much because of the pale malt.



I've check ph meter calibration afterwards and still within spec.

I have a stainless dog food bowl (I clean the crap out of it) that I use to pull a sample. I have a larger bowl that I fill with ice water. I put my sample in the SS bowl and swish it around to cool the sample. It typically cools within 1 minute.

I use lactic for my acid addition and I build from distilled. I have never added any more than 2 mL even when mashing 100% base malt. My pH has never risen. In your case, perhaps a buffering agent, such as 5.2 from Five Star would be an interesting experiment.

Perhaps @mabrungard or @ajdelange could help with this discussion.

 

[TheMadKing]

I have a stainless dog food bowl (I clean the crap out of it) that I use to pull a sample. I have a larger bowl that I fill with ice water. I put my sample in the SS bowl and swish it around to cool the sample. It typically cools within 1 minute.

I use lactic for my acid addition and I build from distilled. I have never added any more than 2 mL even when mashing 100% base malt. My pH has never risen. In your case, perhaps a buffering agent, such as 5.2 from Five Star would be an interesting experiment.

Perhaps @mabrungard or @ajdelange could help with this discussion.

His pH only rose because he didn't add enough acid to overcome the buffering capacity of the malt. The acid needed to drop the pH of the water is tiny compared to the acid needed for the mash.

Try plugging it into Brunwater with no grain, then add acid to drop the pH to 5.3, THEN plug the grain in.. I bet the pH will rise

 

[cyanmonkey]

His pH only rose because he didn't add enough acid to overcome the buffering capacity of the malt. The acid needed to drop the pH of the water is tiny compared to the acid needed for the mash.

Try plugging it into Brunwater with no grain, then add acid to drop the pH to 5.3, THEN plug the grain in.. I bet the pH will rise

This makes sense. Low alkalinity water will drop pH more easily than the mash. [emoji106]🏻

 

[brick_haus]

Could this off flavor be described as astringent?

 

[TheMadKing]

Double post.. Running mobile sorry!

 

[308brewing]

Could this off flavor be described as astringent?

I guess you could describe it as astringent. I've been doing a bit more research and found a good description of what I'm getting for flavors at Carolinabrewmasters.com. Description for Alkaline: "biscuity, bitter, caustic, chalky, detergent-like, drying, harsh, line-cleaner, lye, mineral-like, salty, sodium bicarbonate, soapy.

The flavors I really pickup are chalky, detergent-like, harsh, mineral-like, salty.

After reading the descriptions of astringent it sounds about the same. I would be extremely surprised if my mash ph being slightly out of range would cause it to be as bad as it is/undrinkable.

 

[brick_haus]

No, I've brewed good beers with pH in your range. I did however have a bout with three batches or so of astringent beer. I reduced my sparge water temp to <168 and have not had a problem since. We have different systems tho, I have a 3 vessel HERMS.
If I were you, I would stop acidifying your water and make all of your adjustments in the mash phase.
Your CaCl and gypsum additions are OK.