Help with Polish Grodziskie Recipe

[Felix2Fingerz]

Not sure how much response I will get for this one, but here it goes.

I have been wanting to brew a Grodziskie for a while now and was lucky to have someone from Poland to send me a recipe that had won the country's Grodziskie home brew competition. The recipe is in Polish. I used google to help translate a majority of the recipe, but still having trouble trying to figure out some of the processes. This is the link to the entire recipe: http://www.wiki.piwo.org/Grodziskie,_Jan_Sza%C5%82a

After the yeast, there is a section that says:
Inne dodatki
brak
Translated, it means:
Other add-ons
lack
I am not sure if "lack" means anything more than "nothing".

Also I have another section that I believe is the mash instructions, in polish, it reads:
do 12l wody o temp 38°C dodać śrutę
-przerwa zakwaszająca - 45 min.
dolanie 4l wody i podgrzanie do 63°C
- przerwa maltozowa 21 min.
dolanie 4l wody i podgrzanie do 72°C
- przerwa cukrująca 22 min.
- dolanie 2l wody i podgrzanie do 78°C
- filtracja 2 x 6l i 1 x 4l

The translated text reads:
to 12l of water at 38 ° C, add the soybean
-przerwa acidifier - 45 min.
refill 4l of water and heating to 63 ° C
- Maltose gap 21 minutes.
Adding 4 liters of water and heated to 72 ° C
- 22 minute interval cukrująca.
- refill 2l water and heating to 78 ° C,
- filtration 2 x 6 l and 1 x 4l

I am not grasping all of that. I am hoping that someone who has done more advanced styles of mashing can help me translate some of it. I have no idea where the soybean would come from. I would appreciate any insight.

Thanks

 

[giraffe]

The soybean I believe is a bad google translate. I think they are saying add the crushed grain to the water. (Though it could be something like rice hulls, which I would use if I were you.)

Other than that it is just a step mash. Mash in/acid rest at 100, with a split saccrification rest at 145 and 160. and a mash out at 170. (I could be wrong. My polish is beyond awful) Nothing too fancy.

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

Awesome........great start and I appreciate the help. I basically batch sparge in a cooler and never done any step mashing. I assume I would need a new mash tun such as a kettle or RIMS or HERMS system to allow me to do a step mash and increase the mash temps in increments like that.

 

[giraffe]

You can mash thick initially, and add boiling water to get to the different temps, thinning the mash. It looks thats like what the recipe is saying. (Or you can do decoctions.)

Ive done a few grodziskies, usually with 100% oak smoked wheat. The freshness of the bag of malt at the LHBS, seems to impact the smokiness alot. And oak smoked wheat is not a big seller.

If you want to simplify the mash schedule to a single infusion, use 153 or so. I may consider a protein rest (i use one), and some finings, as it is my understanding this beer is supposed to be very clear.

 

[Lodzermensch]

Hi Felix,

Greetings from Poland.
Recipe translated to english:

12 liters of water, temp 38 C
Add your grains , that will reduce temperature to about 30-32 C - keep your mash at this temp for 45 minutes - this is acid rest (historically in the old days grodziskie was little bit sour because of lacto use)
Add 4 liters of water and increase temp to 63 C
Keep for about 20 minutes
Add 4 liters of water and increase temp to 72 C
Keep for about 20 minutes
Add 2 liters of water and mashout to 78 C

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

Thanks guys....its all crystal clear now.

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

After dissecting this a bit more, I am now wondering if I need to do an acid rest or not. From my understanding, its used simply to lower Ph. I have not ventured deeply into my water chemistry yet to the point where I have a Ph meter and full control control of the Ph levels. To me, doing an acid rest this way would be like brewing with my eyes closed. I do know that we have very good brewing water in the area and the local homebrew clubs claim that very little needs to be done to our water. I think most people in the area just remove the chlorine.

Now a protein rest is a different story. I do like entering my brews in local competitions and the clarity of this style is pretty important. I'm just not sure if protein rests are as useful as they used to be long ago now that grains are more modified.

 

[giraffe]

Now a protein rest is a different story. I do like entering my brews in local competitions and the clarity of this style is pretty important. I'm just not sure if protein rests are as useful as they used to be long ago now that grains are more modified.

Yeah but you are brewing with a 100% wheat. Not regular malt. Alot more protein, and different proteins. And likely german oak smoked wheat malt, which id have to look at the spec sheet, but may not be as modified.

As for ph, you can try downloading the brun' water spreadsheet and a city water report. My ph meter is almost never off more than .1 from what the sheet predicts. 100% wheat malt is similar to 100% pils malt, there isnt any real buffering power, its easy for the mash ph to be too high.

As for the acid rest in regards to PH, its really only if you have very soft water and you are using very light continental malt (likely they are in poland) , but even then, there are easier ways to do the same thing.

The more important thing is some of the protien enzymes functions in this range. (beta-glucans, which are high in wheat, but not in modern barley malt)

That all said. Im sure it will be likely be fine if you single infusion mash it, and use lots of finings to clear it, but this was probably the logic of the homebrewer who sent you the recipe.

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

I think that is plenty reason to teach myself a step infusion mash. There was plenty of good information I found out there on how to attempt it with a cooler mash tun. All the more reason for me to justify a RIMS system, something I always considered to invest in.

Just to assure what I read, the protein rest just needs to be somewhere between 113°F and 131°F (shooting for 122°F) for about 20-30 minutes. Then to keep this simple for myself, I raise the temp up to my desired mash temp for an hour. (or should the wheat be treated like a pilsner and mashed for 90 minutes?)

I have been looking at Ph meters too and researching reviews, do's and dont's. Mind if I ask what you are using for a Ph meter?

 

[giraffe]

60 minutes is likely fine. If you were mashing 150 or below id go longer to be safe.

I forget the brand of the ph meter I got, it was from a lab surplus sale. I dont recommend it, even though it worked great, cause the replacement tips were 80$, which is more than I paid for the unit, and the tip only lasted a year. I need to get a different one.

 

[nhindian]

So this one isn't 100% smoked wheat malt?

 

[Robotcrab]

I think I am asking same as above, what is the grain bill and hop schedule? I am about to bottle my first attemp at this style, having never tried one it's a bit like trying to reproduce a painting I've never seen... Tasted the sample I took from primary yesterday, an was a little... BBQ ish?


She doesn't seem to understand, I really, really, like beer...

 

[giraffe]

The recipe is linked in the first post. Its wheat malt, oak smoked wheat and a little smoked barley it looks like. It was my understanding the last commercial version was 100% oak smoked wheat, but like anything, Im sure there was alot of variation. There is also good info on Shut up about barclay perkins blog.

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

If interested, I'll post the recipe I came up with. I have it on a document on my work computer right now. The Polish to English translation comes out to be this:
6lb wheat
2lb smoked wheat
1lb smoked spelt malt
I elected not to smoke the malt myself and my LHBS only has plain spelt malt so I decided to revise the recipe for myself like so:
5lb wheat
3lb smoked wheat
1lb spelt.
I'll have to check my document for the hop schedule because I also elected to swap the Polish hops out for some that are easier for me to get my hands on.

I'm not sure I would want a beer made with 100% smoked malt. I love smoke, but I think that would be far more smoke than I would care for. I'm not sure what the original authentic style called for.

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1428417676.547525.jpg

I got to pour myself a glass just in time for Dyngus day. It came out great with a nice wheat backbone along with the smokey notes you would expect. It's balanced nicely with the European hops and has a nice dry crisp finish.

I had some friends over who loved it. They said it reminded them of eating Kielbasa so that is what I decided to call it. I will be entering this one in the county fair homebrew competition coming up next week. Just not sure if I can enter it under the smokey beer category or not because I am already entering a chocolate porter under the specialty category and they only allow one entry per category. I wish they were using the new bjcp guidlines, but they are not.

 

[-Matteo-]

Hi! Since some months are passed: what do you think about that beer now? Would you brew it again? Would you change something?
Thank you,
Matteo

 

[GrogNerd]

I'm not sure I would want a beer made with 100% smoked malt. I love smoke, but I think that would be far more smoke than I would care for. I'm not sure what the original authentic style called for.

Ive done the all smoked wheat & it isn't too much smoke

Not at my pc right now, I'll log in later to talk further

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

Hi! Since some months are passed: what do you think about that beer now? Would you brew it again? Would you change something?
Thank you,
Matteo

Personally, this beer is one of my favorites. I'm holding back by trying to keep this beer limited to once a year for the Polish holiday, Dyngus Day. I've brewed it a couple times now and I cant wait for the next one which will most likely be a 10 gallon batch. I won 2nd place with it in a local competition last year. All the Polish hops in the recipe were replaced with Saaz and this years batch I'm going to hunt down and mail order the original hops for the recipe which I will post below.

I have a feeling that there must be a saturation point with the smokiness or something. Some day I would like to try this with 100% oak smoked malt as I think there will not be a massive difference between a 50% and a 100% smoked malt addition. Would love to hear from someone who might have actually made such comparisons though.

If you listen to the Brewing Network podcast, Dr. Homebrew, episode 59 is my 2nd batch that is actually on the show and I hacked the hell out of the recipe. Not really proud of the adjustments and definitely will stick closer to the original.



Keilbasa

Piwo Grodziskie (27 )



Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 8.11 gal
Boil Time: 90 min

Ingredients

4 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 50.0 %
3 lbs Oak Smoked Wheat Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 37.5 %
1 lbs Spelt Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3 12.5 %
1.00 oz Sybilla [7.00 %] - Boil 80.0 min Hop 4 26.6 IBUs
0.25 oz Lublin (Lubelski) [4.00 %] - Boil 80.0 min Hop 5 3.8 IBUs
0.25 oz Lublin (Lubelski) [4.00 %] - Boil 40.0 min Hop 6 3.2 IBUs
0.75 oz Lublin [5.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 8.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Brewer's Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 3.1 IBUs

 

[GrogNerd]

finally have time to sit at the PC

I've only brewed the Grodziskie once, but it turned out to be the best beer I've brewed. very unique. my homebrew club didn't know what to make of it in competition, having never even heard of the style, much less tasted one.

to make it, I listened over and over to the Beersmith podcast with Stan Hieronymus and followed the directions in the pdf linked there.

like I said, the smoke in the wheat is very subtle, not overpowering at all. nothing like smoked barley malt. I highly suggest you try it with 100% smoked wheat

 

[GrogNerd]

found this article from the AHA

almost exact recipe I used, except I used WLP036 Dusseldorf Alt

if/when I brew this again (might be able to, on a local commercial brewery's pilot system for Craft Beer Week) I would use the 036 again

 

[GrogNerd]

have to update you guys on what's going on with my Grodziskie

got a bag of oak-smoked wheat, will be brewing this up at the end of April

was planning to use a local yeast guy's German ale, but he messaged me today he's getting a shipment of yeast from a brewery in Poland and wanted to know if I wanted some.

hell, yeah, I do.

wanted him to ask the brewer if it would be a good match for the Grodziskie and he had already talked to them and it's specifically a Grodziskie yeast they were using! the style is making a comeback in Poland

I am so looking forward to brewing this, can't wait to drink it!

 

[Felix2Fingerz]

I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I find it uniquely refreshing and am now enjoying this years batch as I just kegged it about 2 weeks ago.

This time around, after listening to an older podcast from Beer Smith about Grodziskie, I made some minor tweaks to try and and get closer to style. Not that the previous batches were bad, but this beer is entered in a local competition and the world is slowly getting more and more familiar with the style. I had cut back on the spelt going from 1lb down to 8 oz. (a honey flavor was noticed) I also subtracted 1 lb of the plain German wheat and replaced it with an additional pound of smoked. (I still do not use 100% smoked in my recipe) I kept the same yeast, though I am getting more and more curious to try others. I decreased the ibu's to put it into guideline standards (20-35) My past recipes always put me over and honestly I did really enjoy it that way and I also like confusing beer judges and the Dr Homebrew judges when it was on the podcast. They have a hard time telling if the beer is more hop balanced or more malt balanced because of the smoked malts adding its own kind of bitterness. My last batch I got down to about 31 ibu's. Once again it came out crystal clear, pristine like with a beautiful pure white frothy head. I do notice the ibu adjustment which tends to define the the smokiness more. At 3.2 ABV, I simply cannot stop drinking them. I do use gelatin for clearing fyi.

Please post and let us know how yours turn out. Would love to try it with the yeast strain your getting your hands on.

 

[jmrybak]

Hey all, another Grodziskie enthusiast here. I personally find this to be a really unique and drinkable wheat beer, and personally get a kick out of the Polish heritage.

The first time I brewed this style I used a combination of the AHA recipe and a recipe found on the internet that was based off another research project highlighting the style. Turned out great! In fact, in the Bluff City Brewers Extravaganza, it took a gold in the smoked beers category with a 41.3 overall.

More details and my recipe here for those who might be interested.