JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Ok Thanks. I didn't know the 240 side was interchangeable...good to know.
I could use some conformation on the #3 being positive.
If I don't get any feedback I try calling Crydom
HELP!! SSR smoked in middle of boil. Overide options?
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I could use some conformation on the #3 being positive.
If I don't get any feedback I try calling Crydom
3 is positive - that is why it is labeled with a + sign.
Crydom has an excellent technical library on their website. Here are two links:
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/installation-sheets/is_s1ac.pdf
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/tips/selecting a solid state relay.pdf
Crydom has an excellent technical library on their website. Here are two links:
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/installation-sheets/is_s1ac.pdf
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/tips/selecting a solid state relay.pdf
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
My bad. I haven't received it yet and jumped the gun on not looking close enough to the picture. Thanks for pointing that out.
I thought you had it in front of you! Sorry for being a smart ass!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
That's why I stated the " #3 with the + sign is positive" I was just going by the pic of the one you bought.
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For the record, if you have to do this again, do it right. The way you joined those wires is not the right way. Those ring terminals put the flat part at the edge of the crimp. You should have flipped each of them so that they sat flat against each other and then the screw terminal would have clamped the whole thing down flat. The way they are in this picture leaves them with not a lot of contact surface area.
I think that was a spur of the moment temp fix.
That said, I am curious about which was in front, cart or horse. It seems very odd to me that the SSR burned up. This is rare as there isn't much inside which should induce that level of heat. The circuitry should either fail closed or open, and a solid state part should fail open if it is heated enough. I wonder if the heat came from the terminal and was dumped into the body of the SSR. Though, that said, once you took the SSR out of the circuit, if the terminal was at fault, it would have likely continued heating, so that line of thinking is likely moot.
Anyway, moral of the story... use a quality crimp and a quality SSR, installed in a quality manner, and these problems should be rare.
That said, I am curious about which was in front, cart or horse. It seems very odd to me that the SSR burned up. This is rare as there isn't much inside which should induce that level of heat. The circuitry should either fail closed or open, and a solid state part should fail open if it is heated enough. I wonder if the heat came from the terminal and was dumped into the body of the SSR. Though, that said, once you took the SSR out of the circuit, if the terminal was at fault, it would have likely continued heating, so that line of thinking is likely moot.
Anyway, moral of the story... use a quality crimp and a quality SSR, installed in a quality manner, and these problems should be rare.
This is a failure due to a bad connection. Hot wires are always either undersized wire or bad connections. Either a bad crimp, or lug not screwed tight enough on SSR, or lug poorly seated on SSR terminal. The heat was generated at the terminal where the wire is discolored and the SSR housing melted. If the failure was with the triac (the high current switching element) inside the SSR, the housing would be melted more near the center, not at the terminal. The melting of the terminal area on the SSR probably caused an internal connection in the SSR to break open (the distortion can pull on internal wires.)
For the record, one of my jobs involved frequent failure analysis of electronic components, so I'm pretty good at looking at the physical evidence and deducing root cause.
Brew on
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
It looked like a failure caused by a bad crimp to me also. (I'm a test engineer and a EE) Though, I suspect the only real reason I didn't have an issue so far (knock on wood) with what is probably a fake Fotek is that I use a "40A" version at about 18A, I have a full sized heatsink with proper compound on it and I have a "boxer" type fan blowing on it the whole time it's running. It's noisy in my brew area anyway.
Do any of you guys have any idea of a vendor who sells real Foteks for sure? (Don't tell me to Google it, it's a black hole.) I wonder if the ones sold at "Sparkfun" are real.. they have ones that look like they are built for them, but the datasheet on their site is Fotek's.
Do any of you guys have any idea of a vendor who sells real Foteks for sure? (Don't tell me to Google it, it's a black hole.) I wonder if the ones sold at "Sparkfun" are real.. they have ones that look like they are built for them, but the datasheet on their site is Fotek's.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the trouble shooting. With any luck the new SSR and thermal paste will be here tomorrow.
As far as crimping them I think I just went Hercules on the connectors with large channel locks. Any other ideas? Not exactly brain surgery but I'll take your suggestions...I'm sure they make a crimping tool that I don't have and would rather not buy for 2 wires but if it will save me headaches I would look into it.
So are the yellow ring connectors correct or is there a better way?
As far as crimping them I think I just went Hercules on the connectors with large channel locks. Any other ideas? Not exactly brain surgery but I'll take your suggestions...I'm sure they make a crimping tool that I don't have and would rather not buy for 2 wires but if it will save me headaches I would look into it.
So are the yellow ring connectors correct or is there a better way?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I believe they are pretty much all fake but a very small portion... The real ones should ship from Taiwan and not china so that the first indication somethings off. there is a website with pictures that show how to tell what from what but thats useless since the counterfeiters used it to make the fakes more like the real ones.. if its one of the generic white bodies ssrs it could have been made by one of at least a dozen generic clone makers in china.. you can find them selling these on alibaba for as little as 1/2 a cent each and companies like mypin, inkbird and ebrew supply sell or sold them as thier own at one point too...
most of the cheap good quality ones like auberins and ebrew now sell are made by mager like this one... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mager-SSR-4...867853?hash=item211b88c0cd:g:liEAAOSwcUBYPnpe or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mager-40A-S...244314?hash=item5b2516545a:g:MWoAAOSwo0JWJzxJ they come rebranded as all different names but with a similar blue or purple label. they are also sold as "Berme" brand too http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-480V-AC-...3f925d4&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=272520440744 and are possibly even the same as these..http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Phas...3f925d4&pid=100005&rk=5&rkt=6&sd=272520440744
Channel locks?!? Oh man, that explains it.
Buy, or borrow, a quality pair of crimpers. These ratchet and have a legit die to crimp both the electrical and insulation potions of the terminal. You can buy a pair on Amazon for ~$50. I think that's worthwhile insurance to make sure you don't have a [emoji91].
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
These are more than enough to do the job.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voilamart-C...508541?hash=item4b0f7eb1fd:g:uDcAAOSwImRYb2gF
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ratcheting-...344890?hash=item43fae86c3a:g:h9AAAOSwa~BYURKW
or if you have one nearby..
http://www.harborfreight.com/ratcheting-crimping-tool-97420.html
The ones I used where the really cheap crappy harbor freight style.. They work fine for me but they are not ideal
$1.97 specials... I have never had a connector burnup or give me an issue but I'll admit I squeeze the **** out of them.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-four-way-crimping-tool-92410.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voilamart-C...508541?hash=item4b0f7eb1fd:g:uDcAAOSwImRYb2gF
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ratcheting-...344890?hash=item43fae86c3a:g:h9AAAOSwa~BYURKW
or if you have one nearby..
http://www.harborfreight.com/ratcheting-crimping-tool-97420.html
The ones I used where the really cheap crappy harbor freight style.. They work fine for me but they are not ideal
$1.97 specials... I have never had a connector burnup or give me an issue but I'll admit I squeeze the **** out of them.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-four-way-crimping-tool-92410.html
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I'm lucky enough to have a HF 5 minutes from my house...I'm going to pick up a pair of those $14 pliers... The last link of the wire strippers I have and probably used to crimp down and then used the channel locks to finish it off....
Get some other cool tools you don't need while there, like a tire changer... or a cement hole saw!
Seriously though... AD's my boy, but don't get those cheap azz crimper!!
Seriously though... AD's my boy, but don't get those cheap azz crimper!!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I used them because I had multiple pair my father had bought... If I had to do it again I'd get the ratching $14 ones... I have a $300 set in my company cars trunk but I was too lazy to get them as sad as that sounds plus I would forget to put them back in my trunk and be up ****s creek when I needed them for a field repair at work.
In my eyes, the design of the $14 ones is more than adequate to do the job right regardless of name brand..especially for use a handful of times. We are talking about crimping a couple connectors here not making a career of using the tool. A little common sense it required here... Still, I know points of view change a bit with ones financial situation. I find myself buying things I would never have considered wasting money on 10 years ago when I had much less.
In my eyes, the design of the $14 ones is more than adequate to do the job right regardless of name brand..especially for use a handful of times. We are talking about crimping a couple connectors here not making a career of using the tool. A little common sense it required here... Still, I know points of view change a bit with ones financial situation. I find myself buying things I would never have considered wasting money on 10 years ago when I had much less.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
I think the SSVR I'm using in series currently for boil control (also on a big heatsink with proper compound and a fan) is a "Mager" and it's been okay so far too. Maybe I'll order one of those and try it. Eventually I'm going to do at least one more vessel in the setup... Thanks.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Looking at Ebay again for no good reason. I bought 2 more new Crydom's for $13 shipped. Looking at what other people are charging on Ebay it seemed like a homerun. Now I have 3 brand new Crydom SSR's. Hopefully with the spares I'm good forever
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crydom-Solid-State-Relay-D2440-New-Input-3-32V-Output-240V-40A-/152465545286
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crydom-Solid-State-Relay-D2440-New-Input-3-32V-Output-240V-40A-/152465545286
Caveat is if you got them super cheap, they might be cheap (aka fake)?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Thats a good point...(crydoms normally come in a small box not in a plastic bag that I recall) I bought a cheap dual ssr that states it replaced a crydom model xx and its working well so far in my new control box...
A couple years ago there used to be someone on ebay who was selling Teledyne dual ssrs that normally sold for $300 for $20 each...He had a huge plastic tote full. I bought one as did many members here at the time and I have had no problems...(wish I bought more) My guess is they are sometimes factory seconds or old replacement stock that companies had on had for machinery they've since gotten rid of... hell someone at the factory could be dumpster diving or stealing them as well..
In any case I bet they are much better quality than the 10a fake foteks..
I have bought new Crydom's for less than $10. If you are patient, you can get great deals on Ebay. Surplus, old stock, etc. I bought some for spares that looked about 20 years old but were still "new in the box". I have never used them because I have never had one go bad. When you think about it, these industrial components are made for 24/7 use - I use mine for 6-8 hours a month. I will likely croak before my SSRs...
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I thought they dont fake the Crydoms which is why I bought them.
The one I received already came in a white box. The box is in perfect condition but has that old,been sitting around look to it.
Good point on the other 2 being sealed in a bag. I might call Crydom just for the heck of it to see if they ever sold them like that.
The seller has over 7000 reviews with 100% positive feedback. That's pretty good and puts my mind at ease a bit. Of course if they are fake he might not even know...which brings me back to I thought Crydoms are not faked
The one I received already came in a white box. The box is in perfect condition but has that old,been sitting around look to it.
Good point on the other 2 being sealed in a bag. I might call Crydom just for the heck of it to see if they ever sold them like that.
The seller has over 7000 reviews with 100% positive feedback. That's pretty good and puts my mind at ease a bit. Of course if they are fake he might not even know...which brings me back to I thought Crydoms are not faked
They come in little white boxes. Yours were probably old stock or surplus - boxes get lost/damaged. If they look new, I would not worry about it. You got a great deal.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
So my new crydom D2440 is all hooked up and working flawlessly...hopefully it stays that way.
I went to HF to pick up the ratcheting crimpers...Theres a void in the center by design and I wasn't sure if after it was fully compressed it would crimp tight enough. So Right next to those was this pair..cant tell in the pic but there like 8" long so you can get some leverage on the crimp. I figured all I'm doing is 2 ends and not needing a major tool....I goota say for crimping the ends they worked great...nice flat solid crimps...The tool itself is mighty low quality but as a crimper it works perfect.
So I walked out of HF with this tool AND my FREE multi purpose screwdriver with ANY purchase for a whopping $1.78 total...No complaints
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...0.html&usg=AFQjCNGbzGf2wz4FnF2-UkEspMHHPMLT3A
I went to HF to pick up the ratcheting crimpers...Theres a void in the center by design and I wasn't sure if after it was fully compressed it would crimp tight enough. So Right next to those was this pair..cant tell in the pic but there like 8" long so you can get some leverage on the crimp. I figured all I'm doing is 2 ends and not needing a major tool....I goota say for crimping the ends they worked great...nice flat solid crimps...The tool itself is mighty low quality but as a crimper it works perfect.
So I walked out of HF with this tool AND my FREE multi purpose screwdriver with ANY purchase for a whopping $1.78 total...No complaints
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...0.html&usg=AFQjCNGbzGf2wz4FnF2-UkEspMHHPMLT3A
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Thats the cheapy set I have but the handles broke or fell off making it hurt to crimp lol.... Im actually buying the ratcheting ones next time im there... They do work a lot better even though the ones you got are a step up from pliers for sure.
The goal of crimping is the right geometry and force to create proper long-term contact, not maximum leverage. When you buy a tool with a proper die, the engineering has been done for you. When you buy a $2 tool you will get a non-engineered POS. Not saying their other crimper is better, but I do know this is not a tool you should be using. You have already had a meltdown... why risk another one? An electrical box fire is no joke.
That's the tool I used to crimp the fastons in my box. Then, I did have a box fire
Bad crimp, burned up one end of one corner of one of my crydom D4440D dual SSR. Get the ratcheting crimpers next time.On a side note, I sat down with the crydom rep yesterday. My next box will have wireless (PCB Mount) 40A SSRs. More on that later.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
While I do actually agree here I though it important to point out that same simple crimper design is sold at any autoparts store or hardware store and even sears and has been for many years..it came with a lot of kits too. like I stated earlier my dad had a lot of pairs laying around when I was a kid (even American made ones) long before the NAFTA days where everythings from china or harbor freight even existed... They might suck compared to the professional style ones but they can work ok .. I usually crimp twice with them to ensure a larger crimped surface area because I shared the concerns you mention...
Still I agree they are not very ideal and suggested the better design which are a clone of a more expensive brand and would have worked a lot easier and likely done a better job. And If one wants to take the moral high ground find the company that designed them and pay top dollar for the R&D and marketing that went into them then thats even better I guess but for something as simple as this I have my doubts that the HF ratcheting ones wouldnt work just as well.
nealm
Well-Known Member
Angie,
The HF ratcheting crimper is junk. I bought one a couple of years ago to do some boat re-wiring. Despite trying to adjust it the crimps it made would not pass the pull test. Racked it up to a bad tool purchase.
The HF ratcheting crimper is junk. I bought one a couple of years ago to do some boat re-wiring. Despite trying to adjust it the crimps it made would not pass the pull test. Racked it up to a bad tool purchase.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I appreciate all the help but this is over doing it for a simple crimp.
After swapping out the old SSR and having the wires in my hand the crimps were as tight as the day I built the box years ago...Zero wiggle and passed the pull test.
My issue was either a bad SSR or quite possibly a loose screw. With the Fotek design the screw lugs are recessed making it more difficult to see whats going one...Not that its brain surgery to hit it with a screwdriver every once in a while I just never did.
The Crydom has a much better design with the screws on top. Its easier to see that nothing is holding up a tight connection.
In an ongoing thread someone mentioned the fact that ssr's get hot and cold continuously the connections can become loose over time.
Like auggie pointed out they sell these tools at every hardware store,auto store and electrical store across the nation. There woud be law suits everywhere and no longer being sold if they didn't work. After using the little wire stipper/crimper tool with the spring that everyone has used at some point I will say this larger one with more leverage made for a better/easier crimp. Would I use this thing out in the field on a daily basis, not a chance.
But for one single crimp.I'm perfectly content and feeling safe with my $2 POS crimp tool..and crimp
If it lets go Ill eat my words but I don't see it happening
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
That was what I meant when I said the space looked to big fully compressed...didn't seem like it would hold a crimp
I think the discourse on crimping is valuable for our general membership. So while you are just doing one crimp, the other 1000 members reading this will learn something for when they are building theirs, and making 100+ crimps. The forum's a searchable knowledge base.
I can't answer if sparkfun's fotek is real or not but I can say that I do like sparkfun, I'd trust the company enough to give the ssr a chance.
Not trying to call your baby ugly, just keep you from getting hurt!
That said, trim the screw! It's just begging to become a shorting post!
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I used to have a short screws below the top of the ssr but the design of ssr's with the "tunneled out" attachment area makes it so a deep socket or wrench doesn't fit in there. I had a nightmare getting the nut to set on the screw. And after changing out 6 ssr's I was ready to throw it across the room with my fat fingers( needle nose pliers were just as bad)
So I went with longer screws to make things easier.
I could have went a little shorter though...
highland_brewer
Short Circuited Brewers
Power condition problems... seems wierd?
Or REALLY unlucky.
Or REALLY unlucky.
