Help me solve the caramel note mystery.

[bbenesh]

Hi everyone, I dont post here often, mostly because the answers are already there in some form or another after a good search, but this one has me perplexed. The devil is in the details as they say, so im going to lay it all out there and maybe someone has an idea or solution.

The Problem: Ive noticed that anytime I do a lighter homebrew(Kolsch, blonde, helles, pale ale), the beers have a very faint caramel/sweet note on the back end. For some styles, this actually is a nice touch, for my latest batch, a hoppier pale ale, not so much.

Latest Batch: Generic Pale Ale - 5.5 Gallon Batch.
9lb 14oz - 2-Row
10oz - Caramel 40
1oz - Carafa II
0.5oz Magnum (11.5%) 60min
0.75oz Pearle (4.9%) 30 min
1.0oz Cascade (7.4%) 10 min
1.75oz Cascade (7.4%) Flameout
1Ltr American Ale Yeast Starter, oxygenated on stirplate.
1.054 OG - 1.011FG
Color 9.7, 38-IBUs, Est ABV 5.6%

Please believe me when I say the hops were fresh and smelled great, and the yeast was started with its remaining viability in mind to get the ideal pitch.

Water Profile:
Crystal Geyser Olancha Springs Water with additives to equate to:
Calcium 75
Magnesium 10
Sodium 23
Sulfate 94
Chloride 54
BiCarb N/A
Measured Mash PH was 5.5, a little high.

Equipment
15gal Megapot HLT,

15gal Bayou Classic Mash Tun with false bottom.
RIMs System Calibrated and checked every other batch. Temps all line up on 5 different thermometers within 1.5-degrees, including RIMS probe. Good enough for me. The temp exiting the sparge arm is measured average .5-degree cooler than RIMs Probe exiting module.

Stout Tanks BK on Blichmann Hellfire burner with sight glass.

Process
Grind grains. Heat 5.3g of water up to around 157 in MT. Add grains. After minutes, it equalizes at 150. Run RIM's for hour. Very little variation other than the usual 149.9's and 150.2's.

Increase temp to 168F. This process required a littttttle push with a Edelmetall Bruburner at very low to help the RIM's get up to 168 in the 10 minutes, which is my ideal time for this part of the process.

MO for 10 mins. Fly Sparge via secondary pump into BK, meanwhile pumping in 4.5g of 170-degree water from HLT to MT. No lie, I rush this process. Takes about 30 minutes.

Fill BK up to desired amount, 7.5g. Pre-boil gravity spot on at 1.044. Boil vigorously for an hour making all additions as necesary and timely. Hit target gravity of 1.054. Add Flameout hops and turn burner off. Recirc for 10 minutes, then activate cool water into platechiller to cool down to 65F over the next 10 minutes.

Gravity feed beer into fermentation unit, (SS Brewbucket). Stop when 5-gallons are met. Feed oxygen for about 20 minutes, then add decanted starter to bucket. Run FTS Fermentation cooler set at 67F for two weeks.

FG matches spot on at 1.011.
Crash at 33F for a week.
Keg Beer and replace Oxygen with Co2. Sit for a week to carb.

Pour beer.
Color - check
Carbonation - check, beautiful even.
Aroma - not so hoppy..hmm.
Taste - malty, slightly hoppy, and with this underlying caramel/sweet note.

Possible Solutions?
1. This is where im at a loss. I'll admit that the water profile is not the most ideal to bring the hops forward, but Im not sure im sold on this.

2. The recipe seems to be within the popular 5-10% cara malts, so Im not sure I blame the malt...?

3. I dont fine or filter my beers often. I've read various unconfirmed reports that unfiltered beer can steal away hop flavors and possibly even lead to sweeter percieved beers. I can't say if there is any validity to this, maybe someone can cite this as a possibility?

4. Possible wort scorching during either the Mash temp raise(I doubt it though, my burner is set verrrry low at this process.

5. Possible wort scorching during the boil? I've read reports on this being "utterly ridiculous" to "downright possible." Any thoughts on this?

Looking forward to some solutions. Thanks in advance. I'll answer any question posed here. Would loooove to get to the bottom of this.

 

[brew_darrymore]

How hoppy do you want your beer to be? My first observation is that you are not using enough hops for a hoppy pale ale.

My IPAs are in the 12-16oz per 5-gallon batch with 6-8oz of whirlpool hops, and 4oz to dry hop with.

Your recipe has only 2.75oz of Cascade, so don't expect very much.

If the beer is lacking hop flavour, it would swing the other way around, ie it will taste malty. You could skip the caramel malt altogether - I don't use caramel malts in my IPAs.

Next time experiment with the same recipe and process, but skip the caramel malt and increase your flameout hop additions plus try dry hopping with 2-5oz depending on your preference. I go with 1oz per gallon for an IPA.

 

[bbenesh]

Yes, I agree with you on all points. I shouldnt say hoppier, as if a step below an IPA, but colloqially compared to the Kolsch or Blonde. The hops in this beer should be present, but I think at almost 40ibu and with a relatively light grainbill, I would expect a bit more hop presence.

Its too bad there is no way to lay out a community sample for everyone to try and understand my plight. If only it was like taking a photo...

How hoppy do you want your beer to be? My first observation is that you are not using enough hops for a hoppy pale ale.

My IPAs are in the 12-16oz per 5-gallon batch with 6-8oz of whirlpool hops, and 4oz to dry hop with.

Your recipe has only 2.75oz of Cascade, so don't expect very much.

If the beer is lacking hop flavour, it would swing the other way around, ie it will taste malty. You could skip the caramel malt altogether - I don't use caramel malts in my IPAs.

Next time experiment with the same recipe and process, but skip the caramel malt and increase your flameout hop additions plus try dry hopping with 2-5oz depending on your preference. I go with 1oz per gallon for an IPA.

 

[brew_darrymore]

Don't be afraid to experiment! A recipe that worked for someone else may not quite work out for you. Make small adjustments each time you brew it and track the results. Eventually, you'll come to the "right" recipe for your taste.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

I'd remove the caramel 40 completely. Drink a sample and ask yourself is the flavor still there.

Good luck

 

[Lefou]

I'd remove the caramel 40 completely. Drink a sample and ask yourself is the flavor still there.

Good luck

...or, remove the Crystal 40 and replace it with an equal amount of Vienna or Munich malt. Guarantee you the color and flavor perception will change because the Vienna or Munich will convert differently.

 

[imasickboy]

I always thought it was my imagination, but maybe it's not: I always thought C-40 gave a much sweeter taste than similar amounts of C-20 or C-60.

If you want to keep some of that flavor, rather than eliminating the caramel malt, consider making the same beer with C-20 instead.

 

[ajdelange]

Since you are looking for as many causes as possible I'll mention diacetyl. At near threshold concentration it can present as a caramel like note. This is part of the desired flavor profile of some continental pilsners. To check this take some of the newly packaged beer and warm it. That accelerates the conversion of acetolactate to diacetyl which can, consequently, be more readily smelled over the warm beer if, of course, it is present. If this does turn out to be a factor that you want to eliminate you face a challenge. Using yeast strains that are known to produce low diacetyl and the selection of malts that are rich in valine are about all you can do.

 

[mikeroesoft]

It could be the c-40...but I also agree with the diacetyl suggestion. Next time, you can try ramping the ferm temp up a couple degrees once the action slows after primary to make sure the yeast clean-up after themselves. Theoretically this shouldn't happen with American ale yeasts, but 'theoretically' is not always reality and I can attest to this 'cause it's happened to me before!

Another possible source is stressed yeast. Do you crash cool your starter? If so, make sure to let it warm back up to as close to wort temp as possible. The greater the temperature differential between the starter and the wort, the greater the chance you'll stress the yeast. Stressed yeast can produce more diacetyl than they can clean up at the end. Obviously, if you already do this, disregard this suggestion.

Like @ajdelange stated above, test for it. Last time I was worried about diacetyl, I did a test before racking off the yeast. I took two samples. Heat one to 150 for 10mins or so and then cool it back down. If the two samples taste different, there's a good chance you've got diacetyl and therefore you should leave it for another 2-4 days. Then test again.