Help me improve my Dunkelweizen

[Chrispy92]

Hi all,

Calling on a few experienced brewers to help me improve my Dunkelweizen. I recently brewed up a general copy of BYO magazines dunkleweizen recipe https://byo.com/bock/item/1964-dunkelweizen-style-profile?viewDesktop=true .

My exact recipe is as follows:

Dunkel
Batch Size : 15L
70% Efficiency = OG 1.061
FG 1.016
Mash at 67C (152.6f)
Estimated IBU 18
Estimated ABV 6%

3kg (6.6lbs) Wheat Malt 68.8%
1kg (2.2lbs) Munich Malt 22.9%
280g (0.6lbs) Dark Crystal 6.3%
100g (0.2lbs) Carafa 1 2.1%

17g Hallertau Mittlefrau @60
5g Magnum @60

I pitched WLP300 and kept ferment cool (16C/62-64f) for the first two days then brought it up to 18C (68f). The beer came out ok. But not as good as I had hoped. Initially it is definitely not crisp enough and perhaps a bit too caramelly....so first off I will be mashing lower and reducing the total % of dark crystal.

Being a relatively novice brewer when it comes to water I have been following this thread quite closely. Although a lot of this goes over the top of my head.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=599613

I was hoping some of those in the know could help me improve this beer by either doing a step mash or potentially delving into my first beer where I will manipulate the water profile. I need help with this in baby steps please! This is the water profile from where I live and what I use for all my brews. Does anything stand out/ anything need to be addressed to help my hefe/dunkel really pop!?
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044731.pdf


I would really appreciate any things you as experienced brewers can throw at me to help me improve this beer. I am going to go pick up grains tomorrow to re- do this!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

A few of my thoughts, but a lot comes down to personal taste.....

A traditional dunkelweisen is dark wheat malt with dark munich. No caramel or roasted malt. Most non-Euro drinkers expect some rich caramel and fruit flavours though. If you don't like the caramel, try just dark munich and dark wheat malt.

Otherwise....
I'd drop the carafa. I don't see a place in a dunkelweisen for roasted malts.
Replace the crystal malt with caramunich and/or caraaroma (a blend of the two is delicious). These crystal type malts from Weyermann taste quite different to Australian crystal malts.
Try 17 to 18C for the ferment, rather than 16C, which I've found to be just a touch too cold. Jamil Z does his at 17C. Raise to 20C after a few days to finish off.

Step mash: A 42C rest helps with acid production, which develops the clove character. THe clove spice works well with the caramel. Try a 42/62/72 mash schedule (30mins at each).

You should add a bit of calcium to your water. 1tsp Calcium chloride to the mash and 1tsp to the boil (for a 20ish Liter batch) would be about right. You shouldn't need any other acid/base for this beer. For a hefeweizen (wheat and pils malt only), use 3% acid malt as well as the Calcium chloride.

If you want a drier/more tart beer, try a hefe instead of a dunkelweizen.

 

[Chrispy92]

This is exactly the sort of info I needed thank you! Need to fashion myself some sort of reliable false Bottom on my kettle so I can do a good step mash. I will adhere to all the suggestions you made and will report back.

Cheers

 

[jessup]

Open fermentation can really help the hefe yeast. Turbid or decoction mash if you wanna get fancy. Wheat does like some rests before sacch

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Maybe dump the Carafa 1and Dark Crystal and replace it with Munich.. and consider a mash with a rest at 122 for 30 min then up to 152 to rest for an hour.. german beers are al about the process with simple grain bills. My Dunkel is all Munich and I mash it this way

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Maybe dump the Carafa 1and Dark Crystal and replace it with Munich.. and consider a mash with a rest at 122 for 30 min then up to 152 to rest for an hour.. german beers are al about the process with simple grain bills. My Dunkel is all Munich and I mash it this way

This is a dunkelweizen, not a dunkel. It can't be all munich and generally wouldn't have a protein rest.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

This is a dunkelweizen, not a dunkel. It can't be all munich and generally wouldn't have a protein rest.

My apologies for misstating.. I meant to keep the wheat and remove the specialty grains and substitute with munich.... so just wheat and munich.. the rest will help with clove phenol development..

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

That would give a 70/30 ratio of wheat/barley.. pretty much the limit for wheat, although you can go higher.. the specialty malts are often used in single temp infusion mashes to offset what would've been gained by decoction mashes.. your grain recommendation above are also a good method of achieving the SRM and caramel note goals of the recipe

 

[Gnomebrewer]

My apologies for misstating.. I meant to keep the wheat and remove the specialty grains and substitute with munich.... so just wheat and munich.. the rest will help with clove phenol development..

Yes, wheat with munich alone makes a great dunkelweizen. I rest a little lower for the acid/phenol development - about 113F/45C. Hefes and Dunkelweizens are definitely about the process - lots of variation just by how you treat the yeast.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Yes, wheat with munich alone makes a great dunkelweizen. I rest a little lower for the acid/phenol development - about 113F/45C. Hefes and Dunkelweizens are definitely about the process - lots of variation just by how you treat the yeast.

Thanks for keeping me honest on the temp rest

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I have an upcoming hefeweizen followed by a roggenbier, and Im using Safale WB-06 for this for the first time.. pretty good reviews and hoping to get similar results that Ive had with WLP300

 

[Chrispy92]

I have an upcoming hefeweizen followed by a roggenbier, and Im using Safale WB-06 for this for the first time.. pretty good reviews and hoping to get similar results that Ive had with WLP300

Definitely post back about the WB06, I used it once after a few successes with WLP300 and was very disappointed. It threw some weird tang that I didn't like.

Appreciate all the advice on the dunkelweiss. I saved some slurry from the last batch which was wlp 300 so now I need to try and figure out an appropriate amount to pitch into the new one.

Working on my recipe now which I'll post back .

Cheers

 

[Chrispy92]

Yes, wheat with munich alone makes a great dunkelweizen. I rest a little lower for the acid/phenol development - about 113F/45C. Hefes and Dunkelweizens are definitely about the process - lots of variation just by how you treat the yeast.

Just curious on this point of the discussion, will just Munich and wheat get me to an appropriate SRM? The Munich I used didn't seem to be dark at all. I'm assuming all dark Munich would be needed? I'm liking your idea of trying a combo of caramunich and caraaroma. Should I sub these in equal parts to make up around 6% of the total grist??

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Definitely post back about the WB06, I used it once after a few successes with WLP300 and was very disappointed. It threw some weird tang that I didn't like.



Appreciate all the advice on the dunkelweiss. I saved some slurry from the last batch which was wlp 300 so now I need to try and figure out an appropriate amount to pitch into the new one.



Working on my recipe now which I'll post back .



Cheers

Do you happen to remember what temps you fermented at? That may be the key.. I tend to start weizen yeasts at 65 for 7 days then up to 68 for 14 days.. that gives me a little clove and good banana flavors.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Definitely post back about the WB06, I used it once after a few successes with WLP300 and was very disappointed. It threw some weird tang that I didn't like.

Appreciate all the advice on the dunkelweiss. I saved some slurry from the last batch which was wlp 300 so now I need to try and figure out an appropriate amount to pitch into the new one.

Working on my recipe now which I'll post back .

Cheers

I find WB06 to be far cleaner than WY3068 (weihenstephan/equivalent of WLP300) - not much banana or clove at all. I like it for American wheats.

Pitch about half of what Mr Malty recommends. Under pitching helps increase flavour production (normally you want the opposite from your yeast).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Just curious on this point of the discussion, will just Munich and wheat get me to an appropriate SRM?

No, it won't. But don't worry about the colour unless you're planning to enter it in a comp.

The Munich I used didn't seem to be dark at all. I'm assuming all dark Munich would be needed?

Dark munich and Dark wheat malt gets the correct colour, and is probably something like what would have traditionally been used in Germany.

I'm liking your idea of trying a combo of caramunich and caraaroma. Should I sub these in equal parts to make up around 6% of the total grist??

I prefer a dunkelweiss this way. 3% of each is about right. Another option is Weyermann carawheat. I'm going to try some in the next dunkelweizen I do (probably in Spring).

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I find WB06 to be far cleaner than WY3068 (weihenstephan/equivalent of WLP300) - not much banana or clove at all. I like it for American wheats.



Pitch about half of what Mr Malty recommends. Under pitching helps increase flavour production (normally you want the opposite from your yeast).

I tend to like a little clove and more banana but not clean.. Ive found that ferm 7 days at 65 and the 14 days at 68 gets that.. think I might be able to achieve that with WB06 or should I steer clear of it and just use 300??

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I tend to like a little clove and more banana but not clean.. Ive found that ferm 7 days at 65 and the 14 days at 68 gets that.. think I might be able to achieve that with WB06 or should I steer clear of it and just use 300??

I like the results with 300/3068 anywhere from 63 to 68. I normally just do a 7 to 10 day ferment, then bottle or keg (I don't want it to clear or clean up, so I don't worry about the full 14 to 21 day ferment). I only used WB06 twice - both turned out more like a warm fermented US-05 than 300/3068. I'd use it again for a hoppy American wheat, but found a bit boring for a German wheat (not much banana or clove). 300/3068 is so good that I don't feel any need to try other yeast anyway.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I like the results with 300/3068 anywhere from 63 to 68. I normally just do a 7 to 10 day ferment, then bottle or keg (I don't want it to clear or clean up, so I don't worry about the full 14 to 21 day ferment). I only used WB06 twice - both turned out more like a warm fermented US-05 than 300/3068. I'd use it again for a hoppy American wheat, but found a bit boring for a German wheat (not much banana or clove). 300/3068 is so good that I don't feel any need to try other yeast anyway.

Gnomebrewer, I appreciate your advice.. this sounds like a great opportunity to split a batch of wort and ferment each with either yeast.. but I'm probably going to pass and just throw out my WB-06.. I have 3068 on its way to brew a hefe on Friday followed by a roggenbier 2 weeks after

 

[Chrispy92]

Ok so I had a bit of delay in brewing the new version but managed to get it all done today!

My LHBS was out of calcium chloride, which was unfortunate but I figured I would re-brew this time with the new grain bill and step mash which will give me a good idea of what this new process and more traditional malt bill bring to the beer. Then next time add calcium chloride as suggested and get a good idea for the influence it has on the beer.

This is the recipe I just brewed:

Dunkelweizen #2
OG 1.060
Estimated FG 1.015
Estimated ABV 5.9%
IBU 17
SRM 12

2.5kg wheat malt 65.1%
0.8kg dark Munich 20.8%
0.3kg pale malt 7.8%
0.12kg caraaroma 3.1%
0.12kg caramunich 3.1%

14g Hallertau Mittelfruh 60min
4g Magnum 60min

Step mash :
30min @ 44c
--- took 20mins to raise to sac temp is this a bad thing?
30min @ 63c
--- took 5min to raise to next step
30min @ 72c

This was my first attempt at doing a proper step mash. Total mash time was almost 2hours! Is that a bad thing or is that pretty standard with this process?

Next question I need opinions on, as mentioned before I saved two jars of wlp300 slurry and I'm not quite sure which is more appropriate to re-pitch into this batch. Below is a picture of the two jars with a standard 330ml bottle for scale. Part of me says pitch the small amount to stress the yeast... Thoughts ?

 

[BigCrazyAl]

I did a 2 liter starter for my Weizenbock and it turned out flavorful with clove and banana balanced well. It was closer in volume to the left jar. I was using 3068 though

 

[motosapiens]

Do you happen to remember what temps you fermented at? That may be the key.. I tend to start weizen yeasts at 65 for 7 days then up to 68 for 14 days.. that gives me a little clove and good banana flavors.

my hefs have fermented out at 7-10 days, and I am usually drinking them another 14 days later! The quick process is one reason I usually start with hefeweizen when brewing season opens in the fall.

Like some others have mentioned, I vastly prefer the weihenstephan strain (3068). I lived close enough to them to ride my bicycle there a couple times, and it definitely produces the more authentic flavor for that region.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I lived close enough to them to ride my bicycle there a couple times

But were you able to ride you bicycle back again!

 

[Chrispy92]

Ok just had to reply and say cheers to all the comments. The new hefe is amazing!! Soo refreshing tasty and look at the color