Please help me adjusting my first Weißbier recipe

[adam88]

Hello All!

This will my first Weißbier, and this time i will use a keg (first time in my life)
May I ask you to help me adjusting my recipe?
Based on the information i get on this forum (thanks again), i made a recipe.
This is it:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/915705/weissbier

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Weissbier
Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Weissbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 20.8 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 24.4 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.044
Efficiency: 70% (DIY BIAB)
Hop Utilization Multiplier: 1
STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5.12%
IBU (tinseth): 12.01
SRM (morey): 4.03
Mash pH: 0
FERMENTABLES:
2.8 kg - Wheat Malt (56%)
1.5 kg - Pilsner (30%)
0.3 kg - Munich Light (6%)
0.4 kg - Flaked Wheat (8%)
HOPS:
20 g - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 9.63
10 g - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 2.39
YEAST:
Wyeast - Weihenstephan Weizen 3068
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 17.78 - 23.89 C
Fermentation Temp: 21 C
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P) (this was filled by the site. i'm going to use a liquid yeast and a starter)
PRIMING:
Method: co2
Amount: 3.56 bar
CO2 Level: 4.04 Volumes (? this will the first time i will use a keg. )
TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Balanced Profile
Ca2: 0
Mg2: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0
Water Notes: Will use RO and the necessary chemicals



Additional info:
I want to get as much banana flavor as i can! So based on the info i've found, i need to go close to 66% of Wheat malt. I tried to go there ,but i want to hit the "Brewersfriends" recommendations about IBU, ABV, Gravity etc... You can see what is my idea above.
I can set the water profile from RO water. I found this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bavarian-hefeweizen-water-profile.665601/


Could you please help me adjusting this recipe?

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

You can gradually increase the fermentation temperature after day 2. Increase all the way up to 25-26c. This should result in good banana flavour. As for keg, use 1/2 or 2/3 amount of priming sugar, which you find on priming calculators.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Here are some good links for research:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/schneider-sohn-original-german-hefe-weizen-ale.659768/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...n-ag-cloning-paulaner-weihenstephaner.650743/
https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hefe-weissbier-bavarian-style.561388/

You shouldn't have to do much with the recipe per se, but you could ditch the flaked wheat for simplicity's sake. Hefes are like light lagers: (relatively) easy to make, but VERY difficult to make well. It's all about processes, not so much ingredients. I can't stress that enough. Here's my recipe i don't plan on adjusting anytime soon:

63% German Wheat Malt
35% Germal Pils Malt
5% Cara-hell

As far as processes go, I feel like marginal gains get you the win: not one thing in and of itself is key, but a lot of things put together are gold! I know a LOT of people here will bag on some of these as wastes of time, and I'm typically in that camp, but i've done hefes with and without this stuff, and i'll never to mine without them again due to the results:

• Hochkurz mash schedule
• Decoction - single to go from beta to alpha rests
• Pitch yeast at 58°F and let rise naturally and hold no higher than 65°F (but temps would be higher if you want more esters - i like more clove with mine)
• Acid rest with pH ~5.8 (same comment as above re: esters vs phenols)
• 90 min boil to better precipitate protein-tanin complexes
  
• NO protein rest
• Spunding to carb

 

[riceral]

Here are some good links for research:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/schneider-sohn-original-german-hefe-weizen-ale.659768/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...n-ag-cloning-paulaner-weihenstephaner.650743/
https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hefe-weissbier-bavarian-style.561388/

You shouldn't have to do much with the recipe per se, but you could ditch the flaked wheat for simplicity's sake. Hefes are like light lagers: (relatively) easy to make, but VERY difficult to make well. It's all about processes, not so much ingredients. I can't stress that enough. Here's my recipe i don't plan on adjusting anytime soon:

63% German Wheat Malt
35% Germal Pils Malt
5% Cara-hell

As far as processes go, I feel like marginal gains get you the win: not one thing in and of itself is key, but a lot of things put together are gold! I know a LOT of people here will bag on some of these as wastes of time, and I'm typically in that camp, but i've done hefes with and without this stuff, and i'll never to mine without them again due to the results:

• Hochkurz mash schedule
• Decoction - single to go from beta to alpha rests
• Pitch yeast at 58°F and let rise naturally and hold no higher than 65°F (but temps would be higher if you want more esters - i like more clove with mine)
• Acid rest with pH ~5.8 (same comment as above re: esters vs phenols)
• 90 min boil to better precipitate protein-tanin complexes
  
• NO protein rest
• Spunding to carb

Ah, not to be too picky, but.....

That adds up to 103%. Or do you mean 60% German wheat malt?

 

[adam88]

Thanks for your answers!

Here are some good links for research:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/schneider-sohn-original-german-hefe-weizen-ale.659768/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...n-ag-cloning-paulaner-weihenstephaner.650743/
https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hefe-weissbier-bavarian-style.561388/

You shouldn't have to do much with the recipe per se, but you could ditch the flaked wheat for simplicity's sake. Hefes are like light lagers: (relatively) easy to make, but VERY difficult to make well. It's all about processes, not so much ingredients. I can't stress that enough. Here's my recipe i don't plan on adjusting anytime soon:

63% German Wheat Malt
35% Germal Pils Malt
5% Cara-hell

As far as processes go, I feel like marginal gains get you the win: not one thing in and of itself is key, but a lot of things put together are gold! I know a LOT of people here will bag on some of these as wastes of time, and I'm typically in that camp, but i've done hefes with and without this stuff, and i'll never to mine without them again due to the results:

• Hochkurz mash schedule
• Decoction - single to go from beta to alpha rests
• Pitch yeast at 58°F and let rise naturally and hold no higher than 65°F (but temps would be higher if you want more esters - i like more clove with mine)
• Acid rest with pH ~5.8 (same comment as above re: esters vs phenols)
• 90 min boil to better precipitate protein-tanin complexes
  
• NO protein rest
• Spunding to carb

I'm started to read about the list. And checking the links ofc.
For your list.. may i ask you to explain the 2nd point (decoction) -what did you mean? And 4th one: what is it? I never read about acid rest (I'm checking it and google says, it was a rest temperature for hours but nowdays setting the proper water profile (to about 5.2ph) is better) What are your thoughts?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Ah, not to be too picky, but.....

That adds up to 103%. Or do you mean 60% German wheat malt?

Yup, typo.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Thanks for your answers!

may i ask you to explain the 2nd point (decoction) -what did you mean?

Use a decoction in conjunction with the acid rest and the Hochkurz mash schedule: infuse to hit 115°F, infuse more to hit 145°F, then pull a decoction to go from 145° to 160°F.

Despite a lot of work showing side-by-side comparisons of decocted beers to not-decocted (or using melanoidin malt as a sub), for my hefes and my german lagers I just simply cannot get the traditional flavor that i'm after. It's that "it" factor that you can't explain well, but you know it's there when you taste it.

And 4th one: what is it? I never read about acid rest (I'm checking it and google says, it was a rest temperature for hours but nowdays setting the proper water profile (to about 5.2ph) is better) What are your thoughts?

The acid rest promotes the generation of ferulic acid, which in turn gets broken down into a compound (4VG) most associated with clove flavored phenols. It only needs 15-30min, but you're right about mash pH (which it typically touted to be best 5.4-5.6). However, the catch is that at the given temperature, ferulic acid is better generated at a higher pH - around 5.8. So when i do my hefes, i'll let the pH ride high for the acid rest, THEN bring it down to 5.3-ish by adding the necessary salts when i infuse the hit the beta-rest at 145°F.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Some have suggested other strains to produce more isoamyl acetate (banana flavor). The instructor at my lhbs brews an excellent weissbier using 3638, and that is what he recommended to me. Also, make sure you're using a good water profile. This is where my attempts have failed, I suck at water chemistry.

 

[Hanglow]

This is a good article
http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[Jayjay1976]

This is a good article
http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

Oh yes, that is an excellent article. I refer to it often enough that I printed it out and stuck it in my brew log.

 

[Bassman2003]

Here are some good links for research:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/schneider-sohn-original-german-hefe-weizen-ale.659768/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...n-ag-cloning-paulaner-weihenstephaner.650743/
https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hefe-weissbier-bavarian-style.561388/

You shouldn't have to do much with the recipe per se, but you could ditch the flaked wheat for simplicity's sake. Hefes are like light lagers: (relatively) easy to make, but VERY difficult to make well. It's all about processes, not so much ingredients. I can't stress that enough. Here's my recipe i don't plan on adjusting anytime soon:

63% German Wheat Malt
35% Germal Pils Malt
5% Cara-hell

As far as processes go, I feel like marginal gains get you the win: not one thing in and of itself is key, but a lot of things put together are gold! I know a LOT of people here will bag on some of these as wastes of time, and I'm typically in that camp, but i've done hefes with and without this stuff, and i'll never to mine without them again due to the results:

• Hochkurz mash schedule
• Decoction - single to go from beta to alpha rests
• Pitch yeast at 58°F and let rise naturally and hold no higher than 65°F (but temps would be higher if you want more esters - i like more clove with mine)
• Acid rest with pH ~5.8 (same comment as above re: esters vs phenols)
• 90 min boil to better precipitate protein-tanin complexes
  
• NO protein rest
• Spunding to carb

I think Cactus is right on. Do not be lured into higher fermentation temperatures. Keeping the temps at 65 or below is best as the yeast does not go crazy and the higher temps will lead to fusel alcohols being created. Under pitching will give you more banana flavor as well.

Cactus, you seem like a detail oriented person. If you are not satisfied with your German beers I would give a look to the LODO folks. I have given the process a fair shake (about 5-6 brews) and I am hooked. This is the "it factor" you are speaking of. My last hefeweizen finally tasted like Bavaria after 15 years of trying! It is not easy but not hard either. Just a different mindset.

 

[adam88]

Thanks for all your replies!
Yes, i've read that article. I based my recipe-idea on that

How can i under-pitch? How can i calculate the amount of yeast for under pitching(I dont want to raise the volume ) ? I want to go with liquid 3638 instead of 3068.

 

[mabrungard]

I haven’t found that increasing the wheat content above 50% does much good. Wheat malt with pils malt and small percentage of melanoidin and/or carapils will work well.

The OP said they want banana to dominate, but I feel that having perceptible clove notes is a requirement for a decent Weizen. Conducting that ferrulic rest is necessary. With that rest and a 62F fermentation, the clove notes should be produced with little banana. Bumping the temp up a few more degrees will bring on the banana.

I like the plan to use RO, but you do want some mineralization for flavor. I suggest reviewing the amount of chloride and sulfate in the Munich water and adding the minor amount of minerals it needs to get there. Some acidification will be needed since that is a very pale grist. Having a slightly elevated pH in the 5.4+ range is OK, but the wort should be acidified to under 5.2 at the end of boil with another addition. Only use lactic acid when brewing a Weizen since it is part of the flavor.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for all your replies!
Yes, i've read that article. I based my recipe-idea on that

How can i under-pitch? How can i calculate the amount of yeast for under pitching(I dont want to raise the volume ) ? I want to go with liquid 3638 instead of 3068.

It is something to experiment with. When you are making a starter just put in 2/3rds of the pack etc... For your first attempt I would pitch a nice, full healthy amount of yeast. This is a process beer and it is best to start in the middle to get a baseline. Then deviate on future batches.

 

[Bassman2003]

I haven’t found that increasing the wheat content above 50% does much good. Wheat malt with pils malt and small percentage of melanoidin and/or carapils will work well.

I brewed this style for a long time with a 50/50 mix. Last year I tried going back to a 60/40 or 65/35 mix and found I liked the beer better with more wheat. The wheat added a little more tangy flavor? Tough to put into words but I prefer it.