Help me build an E-HERMS

[gedion]

Alright fellas, I got the bug pretty bad and decided to start putting together an electric HERMS system of my own. I have gone so far as to buy some second hand kegs (two, but working on a third) for a decent price and want to start piecemealing the rest together over the next year or so...hopefully less. My question is, what would you do if you were me, starting from scratch, and working on a minuscule budget? I can research this myself of course, but i would rather have the advice of experienced brewers who know the ins and outs and whats really needed vs. whats optional

 

[LarMoeCur]

Have you settled on or drawn up any plans? To know what your really need we would need to know what you want your brewery to be. 50a or 30a? Three kettle EHERMS? Two kettle RIMS? BIAB? What 10 gallon batches?

Once you have plans then you will need parts list. I had multiple parts list. A list for the panel, a list for the kettles, a list for all the cables. ect. Once you have your plans and lists, I would start ordering parts as your budget allows. Building on a budget Ebay is your friend! But, only for some stuff! With electronics you get what you pay for in some areas (like SSRs). Don't go cheap on SSR lots of knockoffs that don't last. I got a really nice large heat sink for a couple of bucks shipped off of Ebay. Watch the Sales page here. I've seen a ton of leftover or started but didn't finish electric build parts going for cheap money.

The panel will be the largest undertaking and cost the most. I would start there. I would try to order the enclosure first just because cutting it out and painting it will take sometime and give you something to do while you wait for your other parts. Locking connectors and receptacles are expensive! Appropriate size cabling is expensive!

 

[Dfitz]

I made some keggles up for my herms system only to immediately find I was limited to 6 gal max on high point brews. If boiled carefully average 10 gal brews were doable though. I'll still use the smaller system after seriously upgrading but by itself I had a hard time keeping up with mine and friends enjoyment.

 

[gedion]

Have you settled on or drawn up any plans? To know what your really need we would need to know what you want your brewery to be. 50a or 30a? Three kettle EHERMS? Two kettle RIMS? BIAB? What 10 gallon batches?

Once you have plans then you will need parts list. I had multiple parts list. A list for the panel, a list for the kettles, a list for all the cables. ect. Once you have your plans and lists, I would start ordering parts as your budget allows. Building on a budget Ebay is your friend! But, only for some stuff! With electronics you get what you pay for in some areas (like SSRs). Don't go cheap on SSR lots of knockoffs that don't last. I got a really nice large heat sink for a couple of bucks shipped off of Ebay. Watch the Sales page here. I've seen a ton of leftover or started but didn't finish electric build parts going for cheap money.

The panel will be the largest undertaking and cost the most. I would start there. I would try to order the enclosure first just because cutting it out and painting it will take sometime and give you something to do while you wait for your other parts. Locking connectors and receptacles are expensive! Appropriate size cabling is expensive!

No, i haven't really started putting together a parts list because i wasn't sure where to start. I know i would like to have a full on three keg HERMS system with multiple pumps and coils and all the bells and whistles etc... but if i can get away with less, or with a minimum list of equipment i would like to start there and build up. It has only been within the last 24hrs that i have learned about the RIMS system so i cant really make an informed decision.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I built my 3 kettle EHERMS on very tight budget. I use the plans on www.theelectricbrewery.com Kal is a member here and he answered a bunch of questions I had. I did a ton of research on what I wanted in my brewery. I though Kal's plans were the best because of the redundancies. If my boil kettle SSR dies I can easily switch over to the HLT SSR mid-brew and complete the brewday. And, it was pretty straight forward to build.

Kal's plans use Blichmann G2 kettles, March pumps, QD connectors, and all the bells and whistles. I use Concord kettles, Chugger pump, and camlocks. I bought a used heatsink and fuse holders. I cut corners where I could. It was still a pricey build but I would never go back. It shortened my brew days by 2 hours at least.

 

[GoeHaarden]

DIY is the way to go when you're on a budget, like myself. I have a somewhat hybrid RIMS setup, and I probably spent less than $100 on my panel using an arduino to run the heat controller. Cheap with endless possibilities using arduino setups, and I'm constantly adding/changing features. I use gravity to collect my wort from the mash, so that saves you one pump.

Another tip is to buy a big panel/project box to leave room for expansion. Mine is very compact (9''x 6''x 3''), and any additions would require a new box.

Plan. plan. planning is everything here.

 

[TexasWine]

It has only been within the last 24hrs that i have learned about the RIMS system so i cant really make an informed decision.

Given your statement above, I think you need to slow your roll a bit before declaring you want a full on three vessel eherms. Read, educate, inform yourself about all the options. Maybe you'd be happy with a more budget friendly system with fewer vessels or fewer bells and whistles. Or maybe a simple (budget friendly) system equipment wise will allow you to get bells and whistles in other areas.

Other systems configurations for you to consider (not an exhaustive list):

Recirculating single vessel (element in kettle or RIMS)
Two vessel and all its heating permutations (elements in each vessel, element in BK only with heat exchange via HERMS or external heat exchanger, RIMS, etc)
Three vessel
And the list goes on.....

From everything I've read, I wouldn't use kegs for vessels if you can avoid it. Oh, and there's also the decision of 240 vs 120v.

I currently run a two vessel 120v system, which can make batches from 3 to 12 gallons in size. I pre boil water in the BK, underlet into the mash tun, recirculate the MT and maintain heat with an element mounted in it, transfer back to the BK to boil with Brew Hardware Hot Rods. Before​ that, I was a single vessel brewer.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I currently run a two vessel 120v system, which can make batches from 3 to 12 gallons in size. I pre boil water in the BK, underlet into the mash tun, recirculate the MT and maintain heat with an element mounted in it, transfer back to the BK to boil with Brew Hardware Hot Rods. Before​ that, I was a single vessel brewer.

I use one of those brewhardware 2000w/120v elements for my RIMS, and it heats pretty fast honestly. From ~75F to 160F in about 20 mins, but I've never boiled with them. Do you use two Hot Rods to boil?

 

[TexasWine]

I use one of those brewhardware 2000w/120v elements for my RIMS, and it heats pretty fast honestly. From ~75F to 160F in about 20 mins, but I've never boiled with them. Do you use two Hot Rods to boil?

Yes. One is straight across, wide open. The other is dialed back with the PID to achieve a boil off of 7-8%.

 

[gedion]

I probably spent less than $100 on my panel using an arduino to run the heat controller. .

Can you give me some detail on how you are interfacing the arduino with the system? They are something im pretty familiar with and having that sort of control on the system is very attractive to me both in the automation i could potentially do in the future(but probably wont), and because i really like using arduino.

 

[gedion]

Given your statement above, I think you need to slow your roll a bit ......From everything I've read, I wouldn't use kegs for vessels if you can avoid it. Oh, and there's also the decision of 240 vs 120v.

Consider it slowed. also what is the negative side of using kegs?

 

[GoeHaarden]

Can you give me some detail on how you are interfacing the arduino with the system? They are something im pretty familiar with and having that sort of control on the system is very attractive to me both in the automation i could potentially do in the future(but probably wont), and because i really like using arduino.

Disclaimer: My arduino controller is very caveman. If you want real inspiration look at BrunDog's build.EPIC!. His setup is so automated that I think all he does at this point is add grain and he gets fermentable wort. It even cleans itself...it'll blow your mind!

But, back to mine. It's not totally automated, but I feel like the boil is...well just a boil. So, I still use a gas burner on my boil.

My controller box houses an Arduino Uno, which controls a 30A arduino relay (ebay) that activates the heating element (2000w/120v which pulls around 17A - brewhardware). I have an 20x4 lcd screen, and 4 monetary buttons that control the menu. I use 2x DS18B20 one-wire temps sensors. One in the top/exit thermowell of the element and the other sits in a thermowell of the MLT exit. My initial code used the PID library, but tuning is a royal PITA and once it would achieve any substantial output it would over shoot before correcting. Therefore, now my code is super simple and now contains a less than/greater than logic. I literally get no overshoot. I've programmed it to have the ability to do 3 timed steps. All of which can be set through the menu. I have a 3 position toggle switch that controls the heating element. One position enables the arduino control, middle position the element is off, and the third position disables the arduino control but provides 100% power to the element. This relieves unnecessary stress on the relay when I just need to heat. I have a toggle for my pump, and a toggle switch that controls the main power.

Like I said, suuuuppppeeeerrr simple in comparison to others here but the ultimate goal is temperature control during mash, right? I'd put my system up against any here in regards to controlling mash temps...I will eventually redo this setup, but only to expand. Im sticking with arduino, and will probably incorporate and raspberrypi later on. Just gotta finish grad school first...

 

[TexasWine]

Consider it slowed. also what is the negative side of using kegs?

Again, no first hand experience here, but most folks cut a circle out of the top to leave the handles. This creates a lip along the circumference. Some folks say this lip is the bane of their existence because it narrows the opening, limiting access into the keg. Others may not feel so strongly, but that's the jist of it.

I've seen others use them in bottom drain applications, cutting the entire bottom off the keg so that the it was like a normal straight sided kettle. That looks likes a great way to use them without the lip.

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks for the plug @GoeHaarden! I think it's awesome that you built this controller and have it working well. That's all that matters!

I am surprised however you had problems with the PID tuning. As you showed, you really don't need PID in our applications. That's because these are "slow" moving control systems, and there is no way to overshoot the temp of the liquid mass - once you stop applying heat, the temp stops rising. Should you ever try it again, note any overshoot is generally in the measurement system/delays between heat and measurement. It looks like your probe and element are close, so my next guess is the flow rate. RIMs needs a good flow rate to prevent swings. Of course this depends on an effective false bottom and a mash that won't plug up. I suggest starting with a flow rate of about 1.5+ GPM following dough-in, then increase it to 2+ after a few minutes. Empiric values of 30, 1, 5 are good for kP, kI, and kD respectively. Some will say you don't need the I but it is necessary to ensure your target it maintained over time. I suggest limiting how much the I component adds to the error. Because of the slow speed, it will build and cause overshoot on first approach. I recommend limiting it to 50% of max.

Thanks again and have fun!

 

[GoeHaarden]

I am surprised however you had problems with the PID tuning. As you showed, you really don't need PID in our applications. That's because these are "slow" moving control systems, and there is no way to overshoot the temp of the liquid mass - once you stop applying heat, the temp stops rising. Should you ever try it again, note any overshoot is generally in the measurement system/delays between heat and measurement. It looks like your probe and element are close, so my next guess is the flow rate. RIMs needs a good flow rate to prevent swings. Of course this depends on an effective false bottom and a mash that won't plug up. I suggest starting with a flow rate of about 1.5+ GPM following dough-in, then increase it to 2+ after a few minutes. Empiric values of 30, 1, 5 are good for kP, kI, and kD respectively. Some will say you don't need the I but it is necessary to ensure your target it maintained over time. I suggest limiting how much the I component adds to the error. Because of the slow speed, it will build and cause overshoot on first approach. I recommend limiting it to 50% of max.

Your setup is truly inspirational and I applaud your work!!!

I tried and tried with the PID setup but I never seemed to get it where I wanted. Plus, with my small enclosure I didn't like the heat build up inside, but I still wanted something compact. The controller override toggle I use allows me to heat to strike temps without generating all the heat from relay. I tried to implement this with the PID, but overriding it's output kind of defeats the purpose and any calculations the algorithm was trying to make would be skewed. Or so I think...If I ever switch to eHERMS a I think a PID would be necessary. But like I said, I will probably end up re-doing a lot when I don't have to be on such a budget...I love to tinker!

Probe location -- there is less than inch between the end of the thermowell and the end of the element. I could never find a definitive answer with data to support any correct distance, but I feel closer is safer.

Pumping -- again, everyone seems to do it differently here. For me it just depends how thick my mash is on whether or not I slowly increase flow. I've always wondered if I'm creating channels in my mash, or if going from an initial 3/8'' pick-up tube on the false bottom and then to 1/2'' tubing after it exits the MT causing any issues.

Either way, my mash temps are no longer an issue and I did it all for ~ $275 including the pump.

 

[BrunDog]

Hey... however you get there! And it it's not broken, don't fix it.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I am right about where you are at, maybe a little ahead of you on research. Did one batch extract, jumped in to a cooler for an all-grain set-up, and fell down the rabbit hole from there.

I originally was thinking a three-vessel eHerms system - but you're looking at two pumps, two heating elements, and a lot of complexity. It looks really cool though.

I like the simplicity of a RIMS tube, but that kicks back to a two vessel system, and there's the (probably over-inflated) risk of a pump failure frying the element.

Right now I am seriously considering a single-vessel recirculating e-BIAB system using Auber's EZboil controller. I will probably look to retrofit one of my keggles (since I have two and I already spent 8 hours polishing them to a near-mirror shine), but a flat-bottom pot would probably be better for getting the element close to the bottom so the bag does not touch the element.

This thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=625327 has a sweet control panel plan that gets simpler the more I look at it.

Downside is that I think doing 5 gallon batches in a keggle is going to require near-full-volume mash, which can hurt efficiency from what I can see. Recirculation might help that.

Then again, I keep coming back to the fact that my cooler-keggle system is working and I should spend money on setting up kegging/kegerator instead

 

[KevinP]

Consider it slowed. also what is the negative side of using kegs?

Size.

Oh this hobby...

I went:

Partial boil extract, partial mash BIAB, 10 gallon home depot mlt, 15 gallon chapman mlt (which I super love) and it's still not big enough.

Partial boil extract, 10 gallon pot/stove top full boil, 15 gallon keggle/banjo burner and it's still not big enough...

I read about, swooned over the pictures and lusted for keggles.

Be honest. You drink beer. Your friends drink beer. You and everyone you know spend tons of money on beer. I do.

5 gallons is not a lot of beer. 10 gallons is more unless it is low abv and then it is also, not a lot of beer.

I currently wish all my tanks were at least 20 gallons. Maybe 25...

Where oh where does this stop? lol

 

[cod3ck]

I do 10 gallon batches all the time with kegs. E-Kegs I should add.

Unless you're brewing for the town, 10-20 gallons of beer a month should be more than enough... [emoji14]

Only negative side I have to kegs is the weight -- which is why cleaning in place becomes a nice bonus. Otherwise it's the most bulletproof brew vessel I've come across to date! [emoji482]

 

[cod3ck]

For the record -- if you did go electric, bottom draining kegs on the HLT and MT are highly recommended (zero dead space)!

 

[jcav]

I brew 13 plus gallons (10 gallons after final fermentation) on my three vessel e-herms with keggles every three weeks. Plenty of beer for me and my family and friends. The kegs are built like tanks but yes they are heavy. Pots are a lot easier to lift and clean if you want to go that route, but I am very happy with mine. If you do go to a single vessel you may want to go with a twenty gallon pot. Depends on what size batches you want to brew now and if you want to expand in the future. Good Luck!

John

 

[doug293cz]

...

This thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=625327 has a sweet control panel plan that gets simpler the more I look at it.

Downside is that I think doing 5 gallon batches in a keggle is going to require near-full-volume mash, which can hurt efficiency from what I can see. Recirculation might help that.

...

If you have any questions about the designs in the linked thread, post them here, and I will respond.

Full volume, no-sparge mashing has lower lauter efficiency than batch sparging, averaging about 8 percentage points lower for equal grain absorption rates. However BIAB typically has lower grain absorption than a traditional MLT, and this gets back a portion of the lost lauter efficiency, and squeezing the bag gets back even more. With BIAB you can also crush finer, which often results in better conversion efficiency, which will also offset some of the lower lauter efficiency (mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency.)

Recirculation will not do anything to improve lauter efficiency, and you may have to crush coarser than straight BIAB in order not to get a stuck mash. So, the recirculation usually works out as neutral w.r.t. conversion efficiency. The recirculation helps get back the loss in conversion rate caused by coarser crush. Recirculation does with automatic heater control does keep mash temps constant, and makes step mashing easier.

Brew on

 

[mirthfuldragon]

If you have any questions about the designs in the linked thread, post them here, and I will respond.

How can I get SWMBO to sign off on letting me spend the money? But seriously, the design is just great. I had to learn what SSRs and the rest of it are, but after staring at it on and off for a few hours, I think I finally understand it. Major props and respect. I keep wanting to start building, but I want to build it once, and make it awesome, so it will stay on hiatus while other, higher priority items take my money.

Full volume, no-sparge mashing has lower lauter efficiency than batch sparging, averaging about 8 percentage points lower for equal grain absorption rates. However BIAB typically has lower grain absorption than a traditional MLT, and this gets back a portion of the lost lauter efficiency, and squeezing the bag gets back even more. With BIAB you can also crush finer, which often results in better conversion efficiency, which will also offset some of the lower lauter efficiency (mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency.)

Recirculation will not do anything to improve lauter efficiency, and you may have to crush coarser than straight BIAB in order not to get a stuck mash. So, the recirculation usually works out as neutral w.r.t. conversion efficiency. The recirculation helps get back the loss in conversion rate caused by coarser crush. Recirculation does with automatic heater control does keep mash temps constant, and makes step mashing easier.

Brew on

That makes sense - any idea why BIAB has a lower lauter efficiency? Something that was rolling around in my head would be pulling the bag up out of the wort and then rinsing the wort through the bag - so kinda like fly sparging in a way.

Without doing any real research, I have a theory that lauter efficiency is a function of sugar concentration equilibrium (my college chemistry courses are locked away behind all my law school classes). My theory goes that wort sugar concentrations can only be as high as the equilibrium point between the "free" wort and the wort contained within the grain bag. It would then follow in a traditional fly sparge (with zero sugar water flowing through the grain bed), we gain efficiency. Batch sparging then gets better efficiency than full volume because we drain out the wort and replace it with zero sugar water, so the sugar concentration divides out again. Full-volume mash then gets the least efficiency since the highest concentration between the wort and the grain cannot get past the equilibrium point. It also follows that recirculation does not improve lauter efficiency because one would be circulating wort of X concentration through the grain bag of also X concentration. I am sure someone has already researched this topic, but I haven't looked that far into it - it has just been rolling around in the back of my head.

 

[mike11b82]

i have 3 keggles for sale in the classifieds with HERMS coil!

 

[doug293cz]

How can I get SWMBO to sign off on letting me spend the money? But seriously, the design is just great. I had to learn what SSRs and the rest of it are, but after staring at it on and off for a few hours, I think I finally understand it. Major props and respect. I keep wanting to start building, but I want to build it once, and make it awesome, so it will stay on hiatus while other, higher priority items take my money.

Glad you found one of my designs useful.

That makes sense - any idea why BIAB has a lower lauter efficiency? Something that was rolling around in my head would be pulling the bag up out of the wort and then rinsing the wort through the bag - so kinda like fly sparging in a way.

It's not BIAB that has lower efficiency, it's full volume, no-sparge mashing that has lower efficiency. No-sparge BIAB is actually usually slightly higher efficiency than no-sparge in a traditional MLT, since a bag drains more completely then an MLT (even without squeezing) so grain absorption is lower.

If by "rinsing the wort thru the bag" you mean pouring wort back over the bag like a vorlauf, then no, that won't increase efficiency, as it's not really rinsing. If you mean pouring fresh water over the bag for a rinse, then yes, that will increase lauter efficiency.

You can also do a batch rinse by dunking the bag in a bucket of water, and stirring the grain bed to maximize transfer of sugar from the grits to the sparge wort. This basically a batch sparge. Any method of rinsing with fresh water will extract more sugar from the grain bed, and improve your lauter efficiency.

Without doing any real research, I have a theory that lauter efficiency is a function of sugar concentration equilibrium (my college chemistry courses are locked away behind all my law school classes). My theory goes that wort sugar concentrations can only be as high as the equilibrium point between the "free" wort and the wort contained within the grain bag. It would then follow in a traditional fly sparge (with zero sugar water flowing through the grain bed), we gain efficiency. Batch sparging then gets better efficiency than full volume because we drain out the wort and replace it with zero sugar water, so the sugar concentration divides out again. Full-volume mash then gets the least efficiency since the highest concentration between the wort and the grain cannot get past the equilibrium point. It also follows that recirculation does not improve lauter efficiency because one would be circulating wort of X concentration through the grain bag of also X concentration. I am sure someone has already researched this topic, but I haven't looked that far into it - it has just been rolling around in the back of my head.

That's pretty much how it works. And yeah, it's been well analyzed, and good mathematical models are available that allow accurate calculations to be done.

Brew on