Help! First timer with trouble.

[Drunken-Sailor]

Okay, I've been stalking the site for a bit, but just now registered because I need help. I've never made alcohol of any kind in my life, but I have been curious for several years. Although I am primarily a beer drinker I thought 'Joe's Ancient Orange' mead would be a nice way for me to stick my toe in the water and things are...not going well, I don't think.

I started making the mead on Friday, and today when I when to take a peak I noticed a fruit fly attempting to find a way in (unsuccessfully), so I took a whif, and boy, it smelled like rotting fruit. The foam on top was a a brownish color, so I opened it up and got my nose in there to confirm the smell of rotting oranges.

I tried this in particular because I did not want to buy a lot of expensive equipment and supplies only to find that this hobby isn't for me. I didn't use a proper carboy, nor a proper airlock, so that may be the cause of my trouble, perhaps someone could confirm.

I used a glass jar, 1 gallon size that used to be sold in grocery stores for condiments such a mayonnaise, ketchup and the like. I washed it by hand with dish liquid, then washed it in the dish washer, and finally used a small amount to bleach and rinsed it well before use. I then put a zip lock bag and rubber band over the mouth. I realize this is a bit unorthodox, but I thought it would suffice. I made sure to rinse my orange well, and used a fresh stick of cinnamon and fresh yeast. No other optional ingredients were used.

Should I just dump the must and start anew? I have since ordered a couple of airlocks and I have a 1 gallon carboy (old large glass vinegar bottle). Thanks in advance!

 

[unionrdr]

Sounds like you have krausen. Was there any moldy slimy looking stuff on top?

 

[woozy]

Continue the experiment. (I mean if you think about it this was an experiment, wasn't it?) I don't know what mead is like while fermenting but fermentation isn't pretty and powerful fecund and decaying smells smells are to be expected. (After all, we are setting microscopic organisms out to munch and break down organic matter so why *shouldn't* it smell like decomposing garbage.)

Keep going and see what happens. The worst case is you fail and get something that tastes bad. In an extreme worst case you get something that tastes *really* bad. But you won't get anything that'll harm you. much. keep going. Aren't you curious to see what'll happen.

===
I've always that wineries (and what little exposure I've had to wine making) smelled like rotting fruit. Does is smell like the fetid cloying smell (that would attract fruitflies) are does it smell like mold?

I'm pretty sure you are okay but I'm not there and you are so I can't know for sure.
++++
By the way, kudos and huzzahs to you for your condiment jar approach. I think everyone should brew at least one batch without specialized equipment.

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Sounds like you have krausen. Was there any moldy slimy looking stuff on top?

That's a big affirmative. I'd appreciate advice on what to do next.

The smell is growing worse.The smell is overpowering when you get your nose in it.

 

[woozy]

Photo?

I'm inclined to continue to say "you're fine; relax" but "worse; much worse" and "overpowering when you get right next to it" are pretty descriptive and hard to ignore.

By the way, what's the recipe for "Joe's Ancient Orange"?

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Continue the experiment. (I mean if you think about it this was an experiment, wasn't it?) I don't know what mead is like while fermenting but fermentation isn't pretty and powerful fecund and decaying smells smells are to be expected. (After all, we are setting microscopic organisms out to munch and break down organic matter so why *shouldn't* it smell like decomposing garbage.)

Keep going and see what happens. The worst case is you fail and get something that tastes bad. In an extreme worst case you get something that tastes *really* bad. But you won't get anything that'll harm you. much. keep going. Aren't you curious to see what'll happen.

===
I've always that wineries (and what little exposure I've had to wine making) smelled like rotting fruit. Does is smell like the fetid cloying smell (that would attract fruitflies) are does it smell like mold?

I'm pretty sure you are okay but I'm not there and you are so I can't know for sure.
++++
By the way, kudos and huzzahs to you for your condiment jar approach. I think everyone should brew at least one batch without specialized equipment.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I nearly decided to dump it, but now I have decided to continue the experiment. If it goes somewhat well I will probably buy some more tools of the trade. Some proper sanitation, a bottle capper and caps, and so forth. As it stands now, if things do not work out I am only out about 20 bucks, which isn't too bad.

I have been saving my beer bottles for a while now in case I decide to get more serious. I have about 60 saved up, all the labels have been removed and they are stored. I have estimated that a 5 gallon batch of beer will use about 50 bottles or so, and I may put my mead in bottles if it goes well.

The reason why I started out with mead is because it is more simple, the natural properties of honey are supposed to help ward of unwanted bacteria and I was curious as to what mead tasted like.

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Photo?

I'm inclined to continue to say "you're fine; relax" but "worse; much worse" and "overpowering when you get right next to it" are pretty descriptive and hard to ignore.

By the way, what's the recipe for "Joe's Ancient Orange"?

I edited it, because I freaked out a bit and used too strong language to accurately describe it. After checking it again, it probably isn't any worse than yesterday.

Here is a link to the page that inspired me, but I omitted the cloves and raisins.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f80/joes-ancient-orange-mead-49106/

 

[woozy]

Okay. That page goes on forever. But the gyst seems to be that it's impossible to screw up. The second gyst seems to be that you make it toss it in the closet and forget about it.

Around page 89 or so, someone posted that he started it and tossed it three times because it was smelly. Was it supposed to be this smelly? Well, no-one actually answered just how smelly it was or wasn't supposed to be but the general reaction was it's not going to *stay* smelly after several month; put it in a closet where you won't smell it.

So... all things considered and the general report that that JAOM is unscrewupable (as one persons signature says you're more likely to have a three-way with Japan's curling team) I'd suggest putting it a closet and walking away. And if it's overwhelming when you stand next to it ... don't stand next to it.

Actually, I'm tempted to try this.

 

[kaconga]

You should have added the raisins. They provide nutrients for the yeast. When yeast get stressed they can give off really foul odors. Thankfully these odors can usually condition out. So unless you need the jar or something I would just let the yeast do its thing. Be mindful that mead can take a long time to reach greatness so patience is your friend.

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Whew! Thanks for putting my mind at ease. I didn't want to end up with something that was just going to rot and be really hard to clean. Should I add raisins now, or is it too late? Thanks again all.

 

[kaconga]

It wouldn't hurt anything to toss them in. It may or may not help depending on how far along the yeast are. If it were me I would toss some in.

 

[woozy]

You should have added the raisins. They provide nutrients for the yeast. When yeast get stressed they can give off really foul odors.

Mmmm.... okay... but with 3 lbs of sugar and a large orange I'm not sure a handful of raisins will make that much difference. Especially for a recipe that more or less reads "throw it together and toss in a closet for several months".

But what do I know?

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Well, I tossed in the raisins a few moments ago. I didn't realize it served a function other than flavor. I realize there are sugars in all fruits, including dried fruits, but I thought that would be minimal. In any case I added a clove as well. I have much more confidence in it now. I will put a proper airlock on it Wednesday and then I won't touch it until September. In the meantime I may try and make some hard cider, because patience isn't my strong suit.

Getting into brewing can be daunting when you don't know anyone else who has ever done it. There is the science behind it all of course, but additionally there is a lot of terms, abbreviations and equipment to get familiar with. Thanks for your help woozy and kaconga. I'm sure I will need more advice as time passes.

 

[kaconga]

Mmmm.... okay... but with 3 lbs of sugar and a large orange I'm not sure a handful of raisins will make that much difference. Especially for a recipe that more or less reads "throw it together and toss in a closet for several months".

But what do I know?

Well it is the skins. Grape skins conatain compounds which the yeast use for nutrients. Hence how wine can be made without yeast nutrient. Honey can be fermented into mead without nutrient but it takes a special care and lots more time. The best thing about JOAM is how good it tastes after just a few months.

 

[kaconga]

Well, I tossed in the raisins a few moments ago. I didn't realize it served a function other than flavor. I realize there are sugars in all fruits, including dried fruits, but I thought that would be minimal. In any case I added a clove as well. I have much more confidence in it now. I will put a proper airlock on it Wednesday and then I won't touch it until September. In the meantime I may try and make some hard cider, because patience isn't my strong suit.

Getting into brewing can be daunting when you don't know anyone else who has ever done it. There is the science behind it all of course, but additionally there is a lot of terms, abbreviations and equipment to get familiar with. Thanks for your help woozy and kaconga. I'm sure I will need more advice as time passes.

Glad to help. If you are a beer drinker then I really recommend beer brewing as that will provide the quickest turn around and is very gratifying. If you want to avoid 5 gallon batches and all that then just do a one gallon batch.

 

[woozy]

Well it is the skins. Grape skins conatain compounds which the yeast use for nutrients. Hence how wine can be made without yeast nutrient. Honey can be fermented into mead without nutrient but it takes a special care and lots more time. The best thing about JOAM is how good it tastes after just a few months.

Oh. Yeast nutrients. Is this a wine thing? I mean, beer requires yeast nutrition too but we usually just figure it'll get by on the sugars for the most part. Well, I guess all things serve a purpose.

But the yeasties wouldn't be stressing out after just two days will they? And a bit of stinkiness is to be expected isn't it?

Don't know the medicine though...

 

[kaconga]

Oh. Yeast nutrients. Is this a wine thing? I mean, beer requires yeast nutrition too but we usually just figure it'll get by on the sugars for the most part. Well, I guess all things serve a purpose.

But the yeasties wouldn't be stressing out after just two days will they? And a bit of stinkiness is to be expected isn't it?

Don't know the medicine though...

Yeast nutrients are necessary for some fermentations. Country wines typically need some nutrient. Some highly adjunct beers benefit from nutrient. Mead seems to certainly benefit from nutrient. Barley malt and wine grapes have plenty of nutrients.

Lack of nutrients and oxygen have the greatest affect during lag phase when the yeast are reproducing to critical mass. My jaom took off after 4 hours so the yeast can have been running for 44 hours on very little nutrients. All fermentations smell to some degree but they should seem more yeasty and less rotten. A rotten smell to me seems like a sulfur production problem. Usually this is caused by stressed yeast. Thankfully these smells almost always condition out and the beer/cider/wine/mead is still delicious.

 

[woozy]

Yeast nutrients are necessary for some fermentations. Country wines typically need some nutrient. Some highly adjunct beers benefit from nutrient. Mead seems to certainly benefit from nutrient. Barley malt and wine grapes have plenty of nutrients.

Lack of nutrients and oxygen have the greatest affect during lag phase when the yeast are reproducing to critical mass. My jaom took off after 4 hours so the yeast can have been running for 44 hours on very little nutrients. All fermentations smell to some degree but they should seem more yeasty and less rotten. A rotten smell to me seems like a sulfur production problem. Usually this is caused by stressed yeast. Thankfully these smells almost always condition out and the beer/cider/wine/mead is still delicious.

I stand illuminated. Thank you. That was very informative. And useful.

There you have it, DS. You should have put in raisins. But it'll be fine that you didn't, if you can stand the smell for the next few weeks.

 

[JeffD1]

One thing I've learned by reading many posts on this site is never dump your beer. There's many posts about people screwing up and the beer turning out great. Also beer will never make you sick. So at the very worst it just might not taste great.

 

[woozy]

The one exception being the person who put two and a half gallons of iodophore into his fermentor...

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Well, it's been nearly a week and the yeast seems to have pooped out. I have read this isn't unusual considering I used bread yeast (which is what the recipe called for). I went down to the basement and watched it for a solid three minutes without a single bubble, though there is still some reaction occurring. I can see a moderate amount of fizzing on the sides of the orange slices.

I would like to get into trying out a beer recipe, and a 1 gallon batch seems very doable. I can't get a lot of equipment right now, poor college student and all that. I generally prefer darker beers like stouts and porters, but I also like a good lager, ale, and even IPAs. Could you make a recommendation? I have access to tons of one gallon jars, similar to what I used for this project.

 

[woozy]

If you have access to one gallon jars they'll work fine as fermenters (although you'll need to jury rig an airlock) but you'll need equipment for bottling. And you should buy a hydrometer for 5 bucks. But you'll probably want to put them in a tub or tote bag of water and swap out ice or frozen bottles of water to keep the fermentation temperature done (and you might want a stick on thermometer strip).

As for recipes, well, any recipe can be scaled down to a gallon. For ease do an extract with specialty grains. You can buy one gallon recipe kits from online stores (Norhern Brewer, Midwest). Or you can just find a recipe online.

Brooklyn Brew Shop has *very* easy all-grain recipes kits for about $15 each. And for $45 you can get a recipe kit plus brewing equipment which will have all the tubing you need for bottling as well as a nice one gallon glass carboy (basically it's a jar of the type you buy cheap wine or apple juice in) and an airlock.

 

[kaconga]

I would like to add a few things:

1. You will need food grade tubing for siphoning.
2. You will need a wing capper.
3. You will WANT a mini autosiphon. You don't need this but it will make life much easier.
4. Avoid Wyeast smack packs for one gallon batches. They are too much yeast and not resealable. Go with either dry or white labs vials.
5. IPA is a great style to start with because it is very good young.

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Thanks again for the support and advice. What I did for the other jars is use a drill with a 1 inch attachment (for wood) and drilled a hole in the lid. I then used a file to take off the last bit needed to smooth out the sharp edges of the metal lid, and make it large enough fit the bung. I should be able to scrape together a few bucks for caps, capper, thermomoter/hydrometer a siphon and ingredients within the next couple of months.

While I don't have the equipment for 5 gallon batches I don't see why I couldn't buy ingredients for a 5 gallon batch and make five separate one gallon batches on the same day. I know it is more of a hassle this way, but I think it might allow me to gain experience more quickly as well. If I realize I screwed something up on the last one I can correct it on the next gallon, in theory at least. Then again I think Yogi Berra said "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is"

 

[Doongie]

In the meantime I may try and make some hard cider, because patience isn't my strong suit.

This may not be the hobby for you, without patience you will drink a lot of substandard product, whatever it is you make.

Cider normally takes longer, many measure it in months, where beer production is usually measured in weeks.. With proper yeast management and temperature control, many good beers can be turned out in 2 weeks or less. If bottling it's more like 3-4 weeks. This requires more control than what you seem to have. It sounds like you are using minimum equipment, so time is your friend, expect to leave it in the fermenter for 2-3 weeks and it will taste MUCH better, even longer depending on the specific beer you are making.

 

[viafax999]

This may not be the hobby for you, without patience you will drink a lot of substandard product, whatever it is you make.

Cider normally takes longer, many measure it in months, where beer production is usually measured in weeks.. With proper yeast management and temperature control, many good beers can be turned out in 2 weeks or less. If bottling it's more like 3-4 weeks. This requires more control than what you seem to have. It sounds like you are using minimum equipment, so time is your friend, expect to leave it in the fermenter for 2-3 weeks and it will taste MUCH better, even longer depending on the specific beer you are making.

It's a difficult time of year to be making hard cider as you really need natural unprocessed apple juice. Most store bought apple juice has been pasteurized and had sorbate added which will prohibit fermentation.

 

[unionrdr]

I used fresh cider when I made apple jack & the like. I liked using the kind that had a little silt in that's made locally. But I agree,beer is a little faster kegging a week or two faster yet. My process with bottling & fridge time is about 2 months grain to glass. I'd love a fermentation chamber controlled & other things to cut 2-3 weeks off the process time.

 

[unionrdr]

Take a gravity sample & see where it's at. Might still be salvable.

 

[woozy]

Should I just dump the must and start anew?

What must?

Why would you toss it? What's the back story? In general you shouldn't toss things without a reason to.

Or is that invisible image for http://www.glpp.info/hu7i.jpg that redirects to a different equally invisible GIF image some sort of hijack link?

 

[woozy]

What I did for the other jars is use a drill with a 1 inch attachment (for wood) and drilled a hole in the lid. I then used a file to take off the last bit needed to smooth out the sharp edges of the metal lid, and make it large enough fit the bung.

Or you could buy a bottle of apple juice. It's all good.

While I don't have the equipment for 5 gallon batches I don't see why I couldn't buy ingredients for a 5 gallon batch and make five separate one gallon batches on the same day.

You could. Or you could cut the recipe in five and just make one 1 gallon batch.

I know it is more of a hassle this way, but I think it might allow me to gain experience more quickly as well. If I realize I screwed something up on the last one I can correct it on the next gallon, in theory at least.

Well, I imagine you'll be boiling up the wort all in one go. So the only thing to screw up is pitching of the yeast. And if you screw up one you're not likely to notice.

But good luck. You've got the right lets-see-what-happens and inventive attitude for this hobby.

 

[woozy]

Oh... "one gallon jars". Do they have enough headspace? You want a few inches above the water line for foam, co2 layers, and blowoff. Read up on blow-off tubes. You'll need that information.

 

[kh54s10]

I would like to add a few things:


4. Avoid Wyeast smack packs for one gallon batches. They are too much yeast and not resealable. Go with either dry or white labs vials.

Really? White Labs vials and Wyeast contain approximately the same amount of yeast.

Or, did you mean not to use it because, while both Wyeast and White Labs have too much yeast, the White Labs vial can be resealed and the Wyeast pouch cannot.

 

[kaconga]

Really? White Labs vials and Wyeast contain approximately the same amount of yeast.

Or, did you mean not to use it because, while both Wyeast and White Labs have too much yeast, the White Labs vial can be resealed and the Wyeast pouch cannot.

Exactly. Mark off the vial at approx the halfway mark and then use approx half the vial per gallon batch for a 1.060 gravity batch. This is just rough numbers mind you. A smack pack once opened cannot be resealed easily and there is a greater risk of contamination with adding storage containers.

 

[Drunken-Sailor]

Thanks again all. As for processed apple juice...meh, I've got access to several apple trees, one of which is in my yard. I've also got access to peach trees, blackberry bushes, blueberry bushes, cherry trees, honey suckles, muscadines, persimmons, walnuts, I grow a ton of different kinds of veggies....I am rarely short on potential ingredients outside of winter. I am looking forward to trying a few things out. A batch at a time...

I still want to try out some beer though...

 

[joey210]

hi all.. could anyone help me with a H.brew red wine problem? my secondary demijohn smells like really bad eggs? .. its been in the secondary demijohn for over a week... i made the wine from : Carton pure concentrate apple juice, 1tspn bread yeast ( most ppl say its cool to use bread yeast for beginners ), white sugar, 1tspn yeast nutrient.. i left it in the primary for 6 days, siphoned it into the secondary and the smell hasn't gone.. im concerned that i havnt sterilized properly so i have just added half a crushed Campden tablet to my 1 gallon secondary demijn.. is this awful smell a way of telling if its contaminated? or will the smell past over time? also would the campden tablet now stop any contamination if there was any there to begin with? i dont wanna drink anything that smells of eggs ,,,, nooooooo way hooooozay)