Hefeweizen didn't turn out exactly as we would have hoped - Can you tell why??

[Yannis]

Hey guys,
Newbie homebrewer here. We've recently tasted our latest hefeweizen, but unfortunately the result was not what we expected. The overall feeling is of a really light-bodied beer - the flavor is not too bad, but the mouthfeel is like you're drinking a light lager for some reason... and we're trying to understand why, so we can improve next time. Any advice is highly appreciated.
Recipe:
60% wheat malt
40% pilsner malt
(total of 6.5 kg for around 6 gal). Mashed for 60 min at around 66C (maybe a bit lower).
40 grams of Hallertauer Mittelfrüh (60 mins)
Yiest: 1 pack of Safbrew WB-06
OG of 1.056
FG of 1.010
We fermented for a total of 3 weeks in a 30L plastic bucket (temperature of 18C or so), then racked in glass bottles (adding priming sugar), and tasted after another 2 weeks.
We noticed that gunk had clogged the airlock after day 2 or so, and at that point we changed to a new clean airlock (but it may have been 1 day+ that the airlock was blocked).

From the description above, can you see anything that would contribute to a problematic, very light bodied beer? Maybe suggest a change to the recipe, or to the process? Maybe too little headspace in the plastic bucket that resulted in a problematic fermentation? Any ideas?
Many thanks

 

[LLBeanJ]

Safbrew WB-06

This is likely your main problem. I have never used this yeast (I did buy a pack once, but never could bring myself to use it), but reviews are generally not favorable. I suggest you try one of the liquid yeast varieties, WY3068 for WLP300.

Also, I've found that shooting for a higher FG, say around 1.015-1.016 makes for a more full-bodied Hefewiezen.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yes, the yeast is the culprit. WB06 is a really good yeast (IMO) for an American style wheat beer - it drops the pH much more than most yeasts, leaving a tart, dry and refreshing 'lager like' beer. Unfortunately, it doesn't produce many of the signature banana or clove flavours typical of German Hefeweizens. As LLB said, try a liquid yeast for a German Hef.

 

[Smellyglove]

Second the suggestions about a liquid yeast. Imho WB-06 has nothing to do in a classic bavarian hefeweizen. It makes a decent wit though. Also your mash regime doesn't promote much "fullness" for a hefeweizen. Nailing the mouthfeel is something I've found is pretty hard to do, if you want to stay around 1.008-1.012. Step mashing is pretty important together with high carbonation and enough yeast in the bottle.

 

[flars]

I'm ready to bottle a Hefeweizen using WB-06 instead of my regular WY 3068. The first was a drinkable beer but not a Hefe. Poured clear and difficult to swirl in the pasty yeast at the bottom of the bottle. Fermented the first one at 68°. The second fermented with harvested WB-06 at 72°F and a healthy over pitch of the yeast. Specific gravity sample was hazy and had more clove flavor with a hint of banana at the finish. Won't know if it is a Hefe until it has conditioned for a few weeks.

I'll be ordering more WY 3068.

 

[motosapiens]

I love authentic hefeweizen, just brewed one today. I only ever use 3068 yeast, and my beers usually start around 1.050 and finish around 1.007-1.008. Your mash temp is right about what I do (150-152 real degrees). Nothing else you mention sounds out of the ordinary. Plugged airlocks and stuff make a mess but have never in my experience had a real effect on the final product, so I would suspect just using the wrong yeast.

40g of hops is a bit much for a real hefeweizen, btw. I typically use half that or less. 5/8-3/4 oz (20gm??)

 

[Smellyglove]

I love authentic hefeweizen, just brewed one today. I only ever use 3068 yeast, and my beers usually start around 1.050 and finish around 1.007-1.008. Your mash temp is right about what I do (150-152 real degrees). Nothing else you mention sounds out of the ordinary. Plugged airlocks and stuff make a mess but have never in my experience had a real effect on the final product, so I would suspect just using the wrong yeast.

40g of hops is a bit much for a real hefeweizen, btw. I typically use half that or less. 5/8-3/4 oz (20gm??)

Sorry a bit OT. You say you love autentic Hefeweizens, but you don't step them?

 

[motosapiens]

Sorry a bit OT. You say you love autentic Hefeweizens, but you don't step them?

I do a 20 min rest at 111 degrees, sorry for the lack of clarity. Honestly, since I started doing that, I haven't done a back to back test to see how much difference it makes, but the previous ones were pretty tasty too. I suspect yeast strain makes more difference than the ferulic rest, but I remain open to learning. IMHO hefeweizen is not a challenging beer to make really tasty. I don't really understand why 95% of the ones in america are so awful.

 

[Smellyglove]

I do a 20 min rest at 111 degrees, sorry for the lack of clarity. Honestly, since I started doing that, I haven't done a back to back test to see how much difference it makes, but the previous ones were pretty tasty too. I suspect yeast strain makes more difference than the ferulic rest, but I remain open to learning. IMHO hefeweizen is not a challenging beer to make really tasty. I don't really understand why 95% of the ones in america are so awful.

Yeah, somewhat. But you can turn a 380 into an ester-bomb too. It all depends how you brew it. I've heard may people saying they've made a hefeweizen just because it's hazy and tastes a bit of banana. When I read transcripts from comps most hefes score less than 30 pts. It's very simple to make something that tastes somewhat of a hefeweizen, but incredible hard to make something that truly is a good hefeweizen.

You don't need to to a ferrulic acid rest unless you feel like you need to. It seems like many people believe that they "need" to do it, because they read it somewhere.

But on topic again: Change your yeast. 3068 if you like the banana, and 380 if you like phenols. Both can be manipulated in both the mash and primary and secondary fermentation though. If you want a "better" hefe, then you repitch.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Mash higher, like 156-158 to produce a larger proportion of unfermentable sugars that will come through in the finished beer as a more full, malty flavor and heavier body. I had the exact same experience 3 weeks ago with my first hefe, mashed in at 111 and slowly raised to 153 for 60 minutes, then mashed out at 170. I used 3068 yeast, fermented in the high 60s, and it resulted in a thin, tart, fizzy beer with no noticeable clove or banana. Not bad but also not quite what I was expecting. My guess is the lower mash temps resulted in only highly fermentable sugars, and likely too much oxygenation during transfer caused understressed yeast. Today's batch mashed at 158 for 60 minutes, though iodine test confirmed complete conversion after the first 20 minutes. I minimized aeration during transfer and pitched 6cl of yeast slurry harvested from the first batch. I've read over and over that stressed yeast produce more flavor compounds, so I'm going that route.

 

[Lefou]

I'd reduce the wheat to 40%, Pilsner to 40%, and add 20% Munich 10L. Mash higher.
Why this mix ratio?
Simple. It mimics a decoction without actually doing one. A hefeweizen beer typically consists of Pilsner, wheat, and a German-style Hefeweizen ale yeast. Certain yeasts will leave a tartness when fermenting highly diastatic malts in worts mashed at lower temperatures. Mashing low gives a more fermentable wort so a drier, thin beer could be a result.

I've been toying with the idea of substituting Pilsner malt with a less diastatic barley like Maris Otter to get a different style of wheat beer - like a pale or Amber wheat, and using a different yeast altogether. With so many malt and yeast choices, why not experiment a bit?

 

[motosapiens]

When I read transcripts from comps most hefes score less than 30 pts.

do you think that's because people don't know how to brew hefeweizen, or because judges don't know what real hefeweizen tastes like? I only brew for me and my friends to drink, so I don't know much about the competition world. I just compare my beer to commercial examples and keep trying until mine is better.

I've only ever had a couple american brewed hefeweizens that tasted much like the german ones. Sierra Nevada Kellerweis stands out, as well as one they only had on tap in their brewery once when I was there.

 

[Rhaop]

do you think that's because people don't know how to brew hefeweizen, or because judges don't know what real hefeweizen tastes like? I only brew for me and my friends to drink, so I don't know much about the competition world. I just compare my beer to commercial examples and keep trying until mine is better.

I've only ever had a couple american brewed hefeweizens that tasted much like the german ones. Sierra Nevada Kellerweis stands out, as well as one they only had on tap in their brewery once when I was there.

I agree about the American versions and honestly i rarely see a hefe offered at the local brew pubs

I’ve tried Weihenstephaner at world of beer and my hefe’s definitely fall flat, thin and fizzy but the flavor isn’t bad i’ve used the wl300 and 3068 i ferment low to mid 60’s

Springtime this coming year i will rebrew my annual hefe with the grist suggested above, i do love me some munich


Thanks for the ideal lefou, why didn’t i think about that? [emoji482]

 

[SoCal-Doug]

A good hef is sometimes tough to nail down. You want it crispy and refreshing but still have some flavor, body and not be watery and boring.

My typical hef is roughly 9# total 50/50 wheat/pilsner. I also add 8oz carapils (oats work also). 111 for 15 minutes, 122 for 15 minutes, 154 for 60 minutes. Ferment in the mid to high 70's with 3068 (300 just doesn't have the right taste for me). Absolutely yummy. No lack of anything and has some clove and banana. I really don't care how true to style it is, I care how my taste buds feel about it

Something else you can try is swap the pils with either MO or, 3/4 pils and 1/4 munich.

Another option is turn that same recipe into a Wit. Toss in some citrus zest and a touch crushed coriander. Use harvested Allagash White dregs and run it in the mid 70's.

 

[motosapiens]

I want mine to taste just like the ones I drank in Augsburg and the rest of southern bavaria from 1985-1991. I would be interested to try your version, but for my personal taste buds, I have found higher fermentation temps to be non-optimal and create excessive esters. even 68-70 is too high for me, but 62 is definitely too low. 64-65 seems to be the sweet spot.

 

[Kharnynb]

wb 06 is bad for hefe, try mangrove jack's m20 if you want dry yeast.

I do like the idea of using a bit of munich or vienna instead of pilsner

 

[Lefou]

Augsburg .... ah, yes. Good beer, good memories from another life ....

 

[LLBeanJ]

A good hef is sometimes tough to nail down. You want it crispy and refreshing but still have some flavor, body and not be watery and boring.

Agreed. It's been my experience that an authentic Hefeweizen is one of the more difficult styles to pull off. I've been working on perfecting this style for the past several years and I am not there yet, but I do feel I'm getting closer with each attempt.

 

[Jayjay1976]

The batch I brewed yesterday was an attempt to go to the other extreme, a honey-orange, heavier bodied hefe that I hope will turn out somewhat like Hacker-Pschorr Sternweisse, one of my favorites when I lived in southern Germany.

3# Munich dark
5# Dark wheat
3# German pils
Hersbrucker at 60 and 15, for 12.7 IBUs
OG 1.055
FG 1.016
Brewer's friend predicted 9.7 SRM but I think it came out a touch darker than that.
I grossly underpitched with 60ml of 3068 slurry to try and boost ester production.

I think I might have overdone the underpitching, just barely starting to show tiny bubbles this morning.

 

[motosapiens]

I have posted this elsewhere, but one of the things I noticed about hefeweizen is it seems to prefer more alkaline water than other styles of beer. Before I learned about water chemistry, my hefeweizens were turning out great, and everything else was turning out tannic and astringent. So I got hold of a water report and used bru'nwater to make some adjustments, and presto, my IPA and porter were immediately much better and smoother and I could add way more hops and get great flavor without the acrid bitterness that was coming from tannin extraction. So I used the appropriate adjustments for hefeweizen and it was thin and overly tart and weird and just not very good or authentic.

I am still experimenting and fine-tuning, but it seems like the less lactic acid I use to correct the predicted ph, the better the beer turns out. Perhaps coincidentally, my water profile is very similar to munich (and perhaps much of the rest of bavaria). Your mileage may vary, but the results seem consistent enough to me that i don't think it was just a one-off mistake or something.

Admittedly, I am only estimating PH using the water report and spreadsheet, not actually measuring it (because I get consistently good results from just using the water report and spreadsheet, and I'd rather buy ingredients than gadgets).

 

[Smellyglove]

Mash higher, like 156-158 to produce a larger proportion of unfermentable sugars that will come through in the finished beer as a more full, malty flavor and heavier body. I had the exact same experience 3 weeks ago with my first hefe, mashed in at 111 and slowly raised to 153 for 60 minutes, then mashed out at 170. I used 3068 yeast, fermented in the high 60s, and it resulted in a thin, tart, fizzy beer with no noticeable clove or banana. Not bad but also not quite what I was expecting. My guess is the lower mash temps resulted in only highly fermentable sugars, and likely too much oxygenation during transfer caused understressed yeast. Today's batch mashed at 158 for 60 minutes, though iodine test confirmed complete conversion after the first 20 minutes. I minimized aeration during transfer and pitched 6cl of yeast slurry harvested from the first batch. I've read over and over that stressed yeast produce more flavor compounds, so I'm going that route.

I'd say that stressing the yeast (to much atleast) can be a dodgy approach. You'll also get some more off flavors which you'd need to get rid of again. It shouldn't however be a big problem getting rid of it again since hefe yeasts are pretty low flocculant guys, but I find it's about timing, and I feel I don't have time for any "cleanup" in the primary stages.

One of my key moments in creating a hefe is the secondary fermentation. I add almost 20% of the full volume in the bottles as speise, and carbonate them at 22-24C. It may throw off a lot of ethyl acetate during this bottle carbonation period, but just let it sit and it will be cleaned up. I'd say I'm getting about 35-40-45% of the final ester profile from the bottle carbonation, comparing to primary fermentation.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I have posted this elsewhere, but one of the things I noticed about hefeweizen is it seems to prefer more alkaline water than other styles of beer. Before I learned about water chemistry, my hefeweizens were turning out great, and everything else was turning out tannic and astringent. So I got hold of a water report and used bru'nwater to make some adjustments, and presto, my IPA and porter were immediately much better and smoother and I could add way more hops and get great flavor without the acrid bitterness that was coming from tannin extraction. So I used the appropriate adjustments for hefeweizen and it was thin and overly tart and weird and just not very good or authentic.

I am still experimenting and fine-tuning, but it seems like the less lactic acid I use to correct the predicted ph, the better the beer turns out. Perhaps coincidentally, my water profile is very similar to munich (and perhaps much of the rest of bavaria). Your mileage may vary, but the results seem consistent enough to me that i don't think it was just a one-off mistake or something.

Admittedly, I am only estimating PH using the water report and spreadsheet, not actually measuring it (because I get consistently good results from just using the water report and spreadsheet, and I'd rather buy ingredients than gadgets).

Can you share some more details about your water?

 

[Rhaop]

One of the brew strong episodes on water regions i was listening to recently I believe Martin spoke about some alkalinity was desired in brewing german beers because using acid malt added a flavor profile associated with the lighter styles


Edit: the 4/14/14 episode

 

[motosapiens]

Can you share some more details about your water?

 

[Metalhead_brewer]

Yes, the yeast is the culprit. WB06 is a really good yeast (IMO) for an American style wheat beer - it drops the pH much more than most yeasts, leaving a tart, dry and refreshing 'lager like' beer. Unfortunately, it doesn't produce many of the signature banana or clove flavours typical of German Hefeweizens. As LLB said, try a liquid yeast for a German Hef.

I don't agree with this one i used WB06 in my recent Dunkelweizen and is so damn good, it has a nice mouthfeel with a full spicy clove flavor and aroma with a hint of banana in the end i fermented it at 17C for 2 weeks and then bottled.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I had the exact same experience 3 weeks ago with my first hefe, mashed in at 111 and slowly raised to 153 for 60 minutes, then mashed out at 170. I used 3068 yeast, fermented in the high 60s, and it resulted in a thin, tart, fizzy beer with no noticeable clove or banana.

Its been in the bottle a little more than a week now and the flavor and aroma have changed dramatically. It's still green and a bit too sweet since the priming charge hasn't yet been used up, but it has a really creamy mouthfeel and a distinct banana flavor with a nice underbelly of clove. I had no idea flavor compounds continue to be produced after bottling, I thought that only happened in the first couple of days after pitching. The color is still too pale for my taste but I can fix that next time around subbing some Munich in place of pilsner malt.