Hefe base malt options

[Sadu]

Hey everyone, I spent an amazing 6 months in Germany some years ago and it pretty much wrecked beer for me. Since I got home beer has not been the same and in particular I have been disappointed with every hefe I have tried since. What largely got me into homebrewing was a drive to brew a good German hefe, since I haven't been able to buy one. I have brewed 2 hefes now and both are ok, totally drinkable, but without the wow factor of a good Paulaner or Franziskaner. I realise that nothing in life that is worth doing is easy, and I'm not in a hurry to get this right. I have decided to brew 1 gallon batches until I get the recipe and process right before scaling up to 5 gallons again.

It seems that most recipes suggest a 50/50 or 60/40 split of wheat to Pilsner malt, however I found that this comes out a lot lighter than a good German hefe should. It's been years since I had my last Paulaner but I remember those being quite amber coloured. My wheat/pilsner hefes look more like watery wees and I'd like a bit more colour / flavour. It's logical that 2 very light malts gives very light beer so I shouldn't be surprised how they came out.

Can you make a good hefe using wheat/munich or wheat/2-row? I have a sack of Gladfield ale malt which is similar to Maris Otter, I was tempted to try this instead of wheat/pilsner for the next 1 gallon brew to see what that does. Thinking 50% wheat / 40% ale malt / 7% munich / 3% acidulated malt.

Also my HBS sells white wheat and dark wheat. I have been using white wheat up until now, but maybe I should switch to dark wheat or a split of white/dark. I just brewed a dunkelweizen with a mix of white/dark wheat + specialty and it's got a lovely brown colour.

So really just interested in whether people have had success using malts other than wheat/pilsner and what difference white vs dark wheat would make.

 

[porterpounder]

Munich is a nice malt to give some depth and color to a hefe 5-10% of light munich should be enough. English-style ale malts may create some biscuity malt flavors that wouldn't quite fit, but that depends on the maltster. Try it out and report back. Can't hurt. Dark wheat, depending on how much used may also give some depth, but that also depends on how dark and what kind of flavors will come through. Once again, worth some experimentation. Play with your mash, yeast and boil as well. A step mash will change the body and finish in a hefe, blend yeasts to get a more complex balance of banana, clove and other common flavors. Boil longer for more color and flavor depth.

 

[Sadu]

Munich is a nice malt to give some depth and color to a hefe 5-10% of light munich should be enough. English-style ale malts may create some biscuity malt flavors that wouldn't quite fit, but that depends on the maltster. Try it out and report back. Can't hurt. Dark wheat, depending on how much used may also give some depth, but that also depends on how dark and what kind of flavors will come through. Once again, worth some experimentation. Play with your mash, yeast and boil as well. A step mash will change the body and finish in a hefe, blend yeasts to get a more complex balance of banana, clove and other common flavors. Boil longer for more color and flavor depth.

Thanks for the reply. The thing is that there's so many variables to test out, and only so many brewdays in a lifetime. Love a bit of a darker colour though.

 

[Sadu]

Just cracked the lid on my last hefe batch - not what I was expecting at all and not a traditional hefe but insanely good in an unexpected way. Life got in the way during the mash and accidentally I ended up at mashout temps after 30 mins. I slightly underpitched Wyeast Bavarian wheat and let it go 2 weeks from 1.050 to 1.014. Gravity samples were mouth-puckering astringent, I was having concerns about whether it would be drinkable. 1 week after bottling it tastes amazing. Really sweet, like fruit juice, but in a good way. Gorgeous mouthfeel, colour still a bit light. The sweetness would probably get annoying after a few but the first one was real good and I'm going to enjoy working my way through this one.

Also cracked the lid on the 7% ESB and it's a clear 1-nil to Germany tonight.

Anyway, this hefe was a very nice and welcome distraction, the quest continues for something more traditionally great.

 

[drchris83]

For authentic Hefeweizen it is essential that you follow tradtional mashing regimes. A ferulic acid rest at 111F will promote the traditional clove notes - provided you chose an authentic bavarian yeast. Which brings me to the next issue: various yeasts advertised as Bavarian wheat yeasts are nothing of the sort. Your best bet is trying to wrangle yeast from a bottle of good hefeweizen. Try to get your hands on Schneider Weisse - they are pretty much the benchmark for clovy hefes.

Traditional grists are wheat malt/pilsner, addtional color oftentimes comes from decoction - which, by the way, is nothing to be afraid of. For a heartier mouthfeel do not be afraid to add a handful or two of some medium caramel malt and/or some munich, only the latter would be advisable when creating a refreshing summer quaffer (by the by, a 4% abv hefe is an awesome lawnmower beer, albeit lighter than would be traditional).

If you have a "fruit juice" fruity kind of hefe, chances are you fermented too warm. As a rule of thumb, warmer temps promote esters, cooler temps promote phenols. 64F would be good for a clovy type hefe (provided you did a ferulic acid rest), up to 75F will promote a fruitier type hefe. Do not go beyond that unless trying to brew off-style, because it will give you fruit juice (not necessarily a bad thing, just not what you would try to do when creating a more traditional hefe).

I've mostly been brewing hefes (traditional and otherwise) for the last two years and I live 20 min from the Bavarian border so I can always compare my products with the real thing. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions not covered above.

 

[Sadu]

Awesome info. I'm not scared of a decoction mash, on a 1 gallon batch I don't imagine it would overcomplicate too much. I do love a good German bier.

The fruity hefe fermented at 64f as per Jamil's recipe, temp probe in the beer. After the primary ferment I changed temp controllers and the second probe failed, it might have got warm due to this, but not within the first 7 days of active fermentation. If this caused the fruityness that is very interesting.

It is interesting what you say about yeast. My fridge is already full of little jars but Im sure there is room for one more

 

[jjeffers09]

Also using red wheat vs white makes a big difference imo. Also I am ready to try open fermentation for the first 3 days to get the stronger hefe-esters and phenolic flavors. As for the base I prefer the flavor of pale malt as my barley counterpart to all that wheat..

 

[ericbw]

Do most people think Franziskaner is clove-y?? I think when it's fresh, it's a banana bomb. And golden-colored as well.

I think you need a small amount of Munich or something to get that color (I think something that's about 10L, like Crystal 10, but but no caramel, just toasted). Franziskaner is really smooth and creamy, so I am guessing it is higher wheat than 50/50 or 60/40. I think American wheats are probably about that - so they are a little crisper.

I think if you're trying to get close to the authentic German wheat, you should avoid English malts like Maris Otter (too biscuity?). Maybe Vienna, but even that seems like it's too malty - hefe is yeast driven.

just my thoughts (and I love Franziskaner, especially if I find it on tap).

 

[bruteforce]

Pils, red wheat, little bit of choco malt. Hit your mash temps, ferment just a little on the cool side.

 

[rmr9]

I usually go 60% wheat malt, 20% pils and 20% light munich. Awesome bready/malty flavor with a touch more color than a strict 60/40 wheat/pils.

 

[Sadu]

just my thoughts (and I love Franziskaner, especially if I find it on tap).

When I lived in Berlin I was buying Franziskaner for chicken change. It was something like 12-15 euro for 20x 500ml and you got some of that back for returning bottles. I may have that wrong but it worked out that I was buying great beer in 500ml bottles for the same price as mass produced swill in 330ml bottles back home. One of many highlights of Berlin.

Back home in New Zealand I buy it whenever I see it at beer festivals or whatever but it's never the same. I really think it has lost the freshness by the time it gets here. So getting a reference version is tough.

I think Ill do a 1g batch this weekend using some munich and a decoction mash or an acid rest, low ferment temps. Will keep an eye out for bottle conditioned hefes that I might be able to harvest from for next time.

 

[Morrey]

My last Hefe I made a few grain adjustments and I am very pleased.

65% Red wheat shifting from white wheat

35% Breiss Two row

I added 5 ounces Melanoidin and it took me to a perfect color level.

(I had been struggling too until this last batch)

 

[drchris83]

The fruity hefe fermented at 64f as per Jamil's recipe, temp probe in the beer. After the primary ferment I changed temp controllers and the second probe failed, it might have got warm due to this, but not within the first 7 days of active fermentation. If this caused the fruityness that is very interesting.

It seems unlikely that you get fruit juice at those temps, I would guess the issue here was yeast strain selection. German homebrewers routinely wrangle yeast off of bottles of their favorite hefe brewery, I guess that's somewhat more difficult abroad, as even less than an hour's drive from the Bavarian border many of those beers are unavailable, so I guess they're even harder to get overseas. If you want a balanced hefe, try WLP300/Wyeast 3068 - apparently they are the Weihenstephan strain, and depending on mash regime and ferm temps you can coax either colve or banana out of it. Careful though: if you go too warm, you're sure to get bubblegum.
You may wanna lager your fruity hefe for a short period of time, maybe like a week or two, and take samples. Sometimes it lagers out and leaves a relatively neutral hefe, like Erdinger.