paulster2626
Well-Known Member
Change the recipe???!! John Kimmich is trying to make the "New Coke" of the beer world? Now that would be hilarious.
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
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I, too, should have some fairly fresh Topper here next week. I'm interested in noting any difference from the late Dec/Jan cans I had last. I have noticed, that HT over a couple/few weeks old begins to drop the suspended proteins and resins and become more clear. That old can I had a couple months ago was nearly clear, slight haze. I wish I had some tonight, there is a party at one of the more renowned judges in MN's house tonight and I'd love to have her pick apart the real deal, and the differences between mine and the real thing. I'll bring a can to next week's BJCP class, along with some of mine and see what she says.
dbennett78
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I made an IPA recently with Conan Yeast. Not specifically a clone, but the yeast is definitely the major factor in this beer. Its probably the best IPA I have made to date. I was amazed at how fast the Conan fermented out. It went from brew day to keg carbonated in about 2.5 weeks and is amazing.
Just got some hop extract and all of the other hops suggested in this thread to make a clone that is closer to see if I can get it close.
Just got some hop extract and all of the other hops suggested in this thread to make a clone that is closer to see if I can get it close.
I harvested some yeast from a can and am in the process of stepping it up. It looks great, but i have never done this before so I want to make sure it is not contaminated before using it. Should I just do a taste / smell test? Anything particular to look out for?
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theveganbrewer
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Just be careful. Hard to tell on infection, wort is going to taste terrible because of temp and aeration. Might not smell great after a step or two once you lose the heady part of the old wort.
I've been hoping you could get some heady to your class for review Nordeast, trained noses will help. Maybe giving them the proposed recipe might help pick stuff out that is out of place or correct?
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
Good to know, and fair enoughhonestly, I haven't had extensive enough experience doing temp comparisons to establish that any temp is definitely best. I was shocked to find Conan chugging away even in the low 60's, and I liked the character I got in that range, but my next go around I'm going to try it out in the 66/68 range again too.
Actually, maybe I'll just do a split batch. Ferment half around 62 and the other half around 67 and see which I like better.
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
When I first had Heady, last summer, I thought it was the most intensely fruity IPA I'd ever had. I couldn't believe the fruit character dripping out of it. Then my friend brought some super fresh Heady back for me in the beginning of December, and I thought it tasted a lot different than I remembered. Much less fruity, more "classic hop character". Wasn't sure if there was a real difference, or just my great love for that first experience warping my perceptions. I don't get to try Heady enough to be able to make fully accurate comparisons in my head.
I've also noticed that the Conan I harvested from that second set of cans seems to be much less aggressive. Could be a fluke, I've only brewed one batch with it, but I'm wondering if I got some Heady brewed with late-generation Conan—or maybe it's related to the expansion somehow.
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theveganbrewer
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That would seem to fit in my estimation that they got a new shipment of yeast in their January canning that was very active. I harvested from a September canning and January. September was slow and January was much more active. If they got new yeast in October, I'd have had old yeast in September and you would have gotten an older generation in December.
Interested to see your results with split fermentation, I still don't know if the recipe change or the ferm temp change or the underpitch changed everything.
The batch I liked the best was underpitched and at 66. I came up on my pitch rate yesterday to about ~9 million cells per mL, up from 6-7 on the last attempt just to make sure I got complete fermentation.
For those of you stepping up from cans/bottles for the first time, after your first step, when it's ready, it'll look similar to this (200ml and 0.69 ounces of DME + 1/2tsp yeast nutrient):
http://www.signpostbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/IMG_20130301_171022-768x1024.jpg
whitehause
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Thinking Columbus, Centennial, Simcoe dry hop
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theveganbrewer
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I can say for sure it is dryhopped with Simcoe and Columbus. As for Centennial, quite possible, but no verification from John on that either way.
mewithstewpid
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Having for the second time. I think the last time I had it it was a little older because I distinctly remember little to no fruits and all pine
This time, canned on Monday, I get way more fresh fruits but also the dank pine. Really easy to drink tho. Definelty some pineapple in there this time, tho way less than CT's Gandhi Bot
I just jizzed in my pants.
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
To culture from cans without a stir plate:
Make 1 pint of 1.020, pour dregs from a can or a few into it and shake hourly. After 48 hours refridge it, then decant and pitch into a 1 liter 1.020 starter. Shake hourly. After 48 hours refridge it, then decant and pitch into a 2 liter 1.040 starter.
After 48 hours, refridge, decant, and pitch the slurry into your wort for brewing.
Make sure you are sterile the whole time and flaming the lips of the can.
Make 1 pint of 1.020, pour dregs from a can or a few into it and shake hourly. After 48 hours refridge it, then decant and pitch into a 1 liter 1.020 starter. Shake hourly. After 48 hours refridge it, then decant and pitch into a 2 liter 1.040 starter.
After 48 hours, refridge, decant, and pitch the slurry into your wort for brewing.
Make sure you are sterile the whole time and flaming the lips of the can.
The one element that makes Heady Topper SO UNIQUE is a smooth dankness that hits the mid-palette. It's in the aroma as well. All the tropical/citrus/pine elements are secondary to that IMO as far as what greets you.
The only explanation for that I can come up with (cause NONE of those hops will create that effect. The closest hop I can think of that comes close is Nelson S. but that certainly isn't in this beer) is the yeast. Something occurs in fermentation that creates that effect (perhaps stressing the yeast and certainly the strain). That's what makes this beer such a standout.
The only explanation for that I can come up with (cause NONE of those hops will create that effect. The closest hop I can think of that comes close is Nelson S. but that certainly isn't in this beer) is the yeast. Something occurs in fermentation that creates that effect (perhaps stressing the yeast and certainly the strain). That's what makes this beer such a standout.
I get less perceived pine from Heady than Pliny the Elder, but an equal or greater amount of dank marijuana. These are two different flavors, e.g. Dank vs. Pine.
What Heady has that Pliny doesn't is a fruityness to go along with the dankness. Pliny has more of that piney citrusyness to go along with its dankness.
Currently, I'm thinking that Heady has more Columbus overall, followed closely by Simcoe, and then smaller proportions of Centennial, Amarillo, and either Summit and/or Apollo. I'm not getting that much Chinook (piney grapefruit) or Cascade (grapefruity blast) from Heady. Rather, the fruitiness of Amarillo and Simcoe add complexity to the heavy dankness of the Columbus, Summit and/or Apollo. Some pine is offered by the Simcoe for sure. But it's not really as piney as Pliny.
Does anyone have comments on oxygenation with Conan? I would ballpark it at ~1 minute of pure O2 from a stone at a 5 gallon size and ~1.076 wort, but that's just general experience from other yeasts.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
At least a minute if underpitching and a 45 seconds-minute if normal pitch.
scottland
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Ok, I have an idea for you guys. A I dry hopped some Bud Light bottles this week with various hop varieties. It worked really well to smell the different dry hop characters. I blended some together, and it's shocking how 'well' it works to recreate dry hop aromas. Amarillo/Simcoe smelled like Duet, Nelson/Galaxy smelled just like Enjoy By, and CTZ/Centennial/Simcoe smelled just like Pliny. I bought a 12 pack of SNPA today, just for the purpose of adding some dry hops to test some future recipes. Click my blog for all the details.
Anyway, my point is. Someone should brew a 2.5g batch or so of a 1.070 beer and ferment it with Conan. Bitter it as you would the Heady clone, but keep the late kettle hops pretty minimal, they aren't super important here. Then bottle the beers with roughly 3g of pellets per bottle. You can try all the different ratios of dry hops under the sun, as you'll have 24-26 bottles to work with.
Let them carb up, chill them down to get the hops to drop to the bottom, and compare. It would be a cheap way to do a number of 'test batches' without the cost or time. Sure it's not ideal to have pellets in the bottom of the bottle, nor does it make great beer to drink, but you'd be shocked how well you can 'recreate' dry hop characters this way. I'm going to do this for every new recipe I brew. It works really well, it's really easy, and it's really cheap.
Just a thought...
Anyway, my point is. Someone should brew a 2.5g batch or so of a 1.070 beer and ferment it with Conan. Bitter it as you would the Heady clone, but keep the late kettle hops pretty minimal, they aren't super important here. Then bottle the beers with roughly 3g of pellets per bottle. You can try all the different ratios of dry hops under the sun, as you'll have 24-26 bottles to work with.
Let them carb up, chill them down to get the hops to drop to the bottom, and compare. It would be a cheap way to do a number of 'test batches' without the cost or time. Sure it's not ideal to have pellets in the bottom of the bottle, nor does it make great beer to drink, but you'd be shocked how well you can 'recreate' dry hop characters this way. I'm going to do this for every new recipe I brew. It works really well, it's really easy, and it's really cheap.
Just a thought...
Awesome scottland!
whitehause
Well-Known Member
Good test Scott.....Might think about this with something super plain like Coors light. Thanks for the idea!
paulster2626
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So I've had like 5 of these today. I'm drink (thnaks autocorrect!).
Anyway I can't figure out wtf "heady topper" means. Help me out??
Anyway I can't figure out wtf "heady topper" means. Help me out??
libeerty
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The HT-inspired DIPA I am brewing as I type this:
Conan yeast
10 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Ale Malt 2-Row
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt
1 lbs 8.0 oz Wheat Malt
8.0 oz Carapils
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort 120.0 min Hop
4.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
.5 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
.5 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
.5 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0
4.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
.5 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
.5 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
.5 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
Mash at 155
Ambient Temp 62
Conan yeast
10 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Ale Malt 2-Row
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt
1 lbs 8.0 oz Wheat Malt
8.0 oz Carapils
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - First Wort 120.0 min Hop
4.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
.5 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
.5 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min
.5 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0
4.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
.5 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
.5 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
.5 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
Mash at 155
Ambient Temp 62
Xpertskir
Well-Known Member
The amount of time for oxygenation is arbitrary unless you have a flow meter or an adjustable gauge. If you have either I can give you a better approximation.
For worts from 1060-1075 I typically go for around 3 minutes at .128 LPM
I may be slightly overdoing it, but IMO there is more harm in under vs over oxygenating.
Also, Just tapped my american wheat(all amarillo) that was fermented with conan...and as expected its delicious. The depth of flavor that conan contributes is crazy. You get hops on the front end, conan in the middle, and then it gets out of the way for you to taste the wheat.
libeerty
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Definitely possible. I think it has to mean something about being a hophead, judging by the beer's written philosophy, and the picture of the hophead drinking HT on the can.
Petekiteworld
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Heady is definitely a marijuana reference. There is a huge marijuana culture in Vermont.
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theveganbrewer
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I would love to smoke a bowl with Kimmich.
libeerty
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So last night I brewed my HT-inspired DIPA, intending on using the Conan yeast sitting under a Simcoe pale ale I brewed (Simconan? 
) but in order to get that, I needed an empty keg so I could transfer off of it. No problem, I thought, only a pint or two left in a pale ale I have in my kegerator, no big deal. So I'm brewing, I'm drinking, and the keg won't die! So I made the decision to go with S-04 in my DIPA instead of Conan
Oh, well, time to order more grains anyhow...
) but in order to get that, I needed an empty keg so I could transfer off of it. No problem, I thought, only a pint or two left in a pale ale I have in my kegerator, no big deal. So I'm brewing, I'm drinking, and the keg won't die! So I made the decision to go with S-04 in my DIPA instead of Conan Oh, well, time to order more grains anyhow...
Thanks for the info. I have been using the "homebrew regulator" that fits Lowes/Home Depot disposable oxygen tanks and it's a total crapshoot. All you can do is try to estimate the bubble quantity and adjust from there. The tanks don't last very long either.
I just picked up a 0-8 LPM regulator on ebay with a CGA 540 connection, I'll grab a 20 cu ft tank at my local welding supply and should be able to get much more consistent results. If I am interpreting your numbers correctly, a 10 gallon batch would take .768 L at the rate you quoted (0.027 cu ft), so a 20 cu ft tank should last a LONG time.
It's cuz it's the dankest of dank, kindest of kind.
You n me both man, kick back with a couple pints of HT, a nice bowl of something heady and dank and discuss brewing. Of course this would have to take place at the Alchemist Pub to make it perfect.
ipe:
Ah, the pub. I was fortunate to go there just a few months before it was nuked by the hurricane. Cool place.
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
My ipa blowoff smells like fresh ripe peach juice. Fermented at 62. This yeast is amazing!
LakesideBrewing
Well-Known Member
You n me both man, kick back with a couple pints of HT, a nice bowl of something heady and dank and discuss brewing. Of course this would have to take place at the Alchemist Pub to make it perfect.
I was at the James Beard House in NYC last fall helping with a Beer and BBQ Dinner. One of the courses was paired with Heady and John personally brought the beer to NYC and attended the dinner. I had a chance to talk to him at the end of service and he was such a down to earth, great guy. He also brought a Wee Heavy that we paired with dessert that was unbelievable! I still have 2 of those!
-Mike
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I was at the James Beard House in NYC last fall helping with a Beer and BBQ Dinner. One of the courses was paired with Heady and John personally brought the beer to NYC and attended the dinner. I had a chance to talk to him at the end of service and he was such a down to earth, great guy. He also brought a Wee Heavy that we paired with dessert that was unbelievable! I still have 2 of those!
-Mike
You left out the part where you asked him for the recipe and he handed it to you on a cocktail napkin.
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
You n me both man, kick back with a couple pints of HT, a nice bowl of something heady and dank and discuss brewing. Of course this would have to take place at the Alchemist Pub to make it perfect.
If either of you can make this happen, THAT is how we'll get the recipe.
I think you both are forgetting the part where he tells you that the secret ingredient is magic and no one else can brew the beer because kimmich is in fact a wizard.
Anyways, we should still try. Got my first batch of Conan ready for mailing as of this morning.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
One vial is going to HarkinBanks and I want one or two but that leaves at least three, possibly four vials to mail. PM me and pay it forward.
Also, I have no idea how to mail yeast. If someone could PM me/forward me to a link on how to best do that then I would greatly appreciate it.
I was at the James Beard House in NYC last fall helping with a Beer and BBQ Dinner. One of the courses was paired with Heady and John personally brought the beer to NYC and attended the dinner. I had a chance to talk to him at the end of service and he was such a down to earth, great guy. He also brought a Wee Heavy that we paired with dessert that was unbelievable! I still have 2 of those!
-Mike
Nice, did you smoke him up and get all the info we need?
BTW, that pic is awesome!!
Trust me dude, when I go to VT, and to the Alchemist, I will be more than prepared to attempt just that.
Just scored some research beers....
Hitch, you're the man, thanks bro!! Aside from a few random cans here and there, I owe all my Heady drinking to you and LaFin. Much appreciated!!
So I don't often post but have been following this thread since it's inception and was lucky enough to be in Vermont last week for a ski trip. Drive to the Alchemist twice and on both occasions noticed tanks at 71 on the right bank of their fermenters and at 56 on the left side. Has anyone taken their Conan yeast as low as 56 and gotten the peachy tropical character that we are looking for in this recipe? I have a ton of cans that I will be culturing from in the next week so if anyone wants yeast pm me and I'll be glad to oblige. I'm contemplating brewing a test batch and splitting into 5 or 6 1 gallon carboys to ferment from 56 to 71/73 and see what nets the best results. I'm very interested in getting this beer cloned and am happy to contribute what I can to the effort. Let me know if anyone needs Conan!
Brian
P.S I realize they may be crashing finished beer to 56 to floc yeast before dry hop but it wouldn't hurt to try fermenting conan that low and see the end result. I've had US-05 around 59 before and the initial finished beer has a very peachy aroma and taste similar to Heady minus all the hop complexity. Another thing to really contemplate is the true origin of Conan. I ate at the alchemist brewpub years ago while staying near Waterbury on ski vacations. The Alchemist functioned like most any small brewpub and had solid beers although I never tried heady topper in the hand full of times we ate their. I posit the question, how does a small brewpub in Waterbury, VT obtain a most excellent strain of yeast that is the defining character in the best IPA on the market. Where is this lab that Kimmich sources this yeast from and how did he come to procure it. White Labs is in boulder and Wyeast is in Oregon. I guess the crux of my question is are we being duped and is Conan simply a mutated sacc strain of US-05?
Brian
P.S I realize they may be crashing finished beer to 56 to floc yeast before dry hop but it wouldn't hurt to try fermenting conan that low and see the end result. I've had US-05 around 59 before and the initial finished beer has a very peachy aroma and taste similar to Heady minus all the hop complexity. Another thing to really contemplate is the true origin of Conan. I ate at the alchemist brewpub years ago while staying near Waterbury on ski vacations. The Alchemist functioned like most any small brewpub and had solid beers although I never tried heady topper in the hand full of times we ate their. I posit the question, how does a small brewpub in Waterbury, VT obtain a most excellent strain of yeast that is the defining character in the best IPA on the market. Where is this lab that Kimmich sources this yeast from and how did he come to procure it. White Labs is in boulder and Wyeast is in Oregon. I guess the crux of my question is are we being duped and is Conan simply a mutated sacc strain of US-05?
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