Hazy IPAs, Why?

[wepeeler]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/gambler-ipa-2018-iron-brewer-competition-winner.650344/

I do my own NEIPA style beers and I also try to clone some of my favorites. Another one I'm VERY close to dead on cloning is Foundation Brewing's Epiphany. I was in Portland a couple weeks ago and grabbed a couple 4 packs and then forgot about them until about 15 minutes ago when I realized my clone is on tap and I have 8 cans of the real thing. I did a side by side and their's has a slightly sharper bitterness and a little more sweetness so I figured I'd move the bittering charge from FWH to 60 minute and mash at 156 instead of 149. Funny thing about Epiphany is, you go to the brewery to get some and have a draft while you're there and it's hazy as anything. Then you get home with the cans, crack one open and it's crystal clear. This opposed to Swish (of which my Gambler is a dead on clone) which is way hazy no matter how you get it.

I believe a lot of it has to do with the hops. Falconer's Flight (the primary hop in Maine Beer Co's Dinner) drops out easily and Dinner is crystal clear. Citra and Mosaic are a little more difficult. I did a Belma SMaSH that I cold crashed and fined with gelatin and it was as hazy after that as it was before it. I'm pretty sure I heard it laughing at my attempt to clear that beer!

Perhaps the cans are older than what the brewery has on tap? Basically a can is a mini keg, so if it's been chilled and sitting idle for a decent amount of time, it will clear. Breweries are constantly changing kegs, so maybe it kicks up some of the sediment. I find that most cans that are usually on the hazy side, but clear up in the fridge, can pour hazy if you gently swirl the can before pouring.

The neipas I make pour very hazy up until about the 6th week in the keg. Then they get a bit clearer. Never had one go beyond that in the keg!

 

[MGamber]

Perhaps the cans are older than what the brewery has on tap? Basically a can is a mini keg, so if it's been chilled and sitting idle for a decent amount of time, it will clear. Breweries are constantly changing kegs, so maybe it kicks up some of the sediment. I find that most cans that are usually on the hazy side, but clear up in the fridge, can pour hazy if you gently swirl the can before pouring.

The neipas I make pour very hazy up until about the 6th week in the keg. Then they get a bit clearer. Never had one go beyond that in the keg!

That's what I always figured, too. It's basically cold crashing in the can. But then there's Swish (and several others) which is as hazy two months later as it is the day I buy it. My recipe for Epiphany calls for 11 oz, Dinner 12 3/4 and Swish takes a commanding 18 1/4 oz of hops for 5 gallons of beer. That's a lot of hops...probably why it gets hazy and stays hazy while the other two eventually clear up. When I brewed my Swish clone on a 7 bbl system (same amount of hops scaled up), it was still super hazy when the last keg kicked three weeks later.

 

[wepeeler]

That's what I always figured, too. It's basically cold crashing in the can. But then there's Swish (and several others) which is as hazy two months later as it is the day I buy it. My recipe for Epiphany calls for 11 oz, Dinner 12 3/4 and Swish takes a commanding 18 1/4 oz of hops for 5 gallons of beer. That's a lot of hops...probably why it gets hazy and stays hazy while the other two eventually clear up. When I brewed my Swish clone on a 7 bbl system (same amount of hops scaled up), it was still super hazy when the last keg kicked three weeks later.

I'm sure hop amounts affect the haze moreso than anything else. I've never used more than a pound in my recipes. Next in line would most likely be proteins from oats/rye/wheat. Not sure if you've ever had anything from Tree House, but they are known for their super hazy neipas. I've had cans of theirs last a few months, and they pour just as hazy as day one. They claim to use no oats in Julius, their flagship. That thing pours like pulpy orange juice. The same can't be said for Heady Topper from Alchemist. That pours hazy on day one, but if left in the fridge for a few weeks, it clears (although you get a lot of floaters, which I'm not a huge fan of, yet other people like it).

Maybe I need to use more hops....

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I made a Mosaic SMaSH with all Marris Otter and used a total of 1oz in the boil, 3 oz in the hop stand, 1oz of hop hash for DH #1 and 4oz for DH#2. Needless to say, she hazy.

 

[MGamber]

I'm sure hop amounts affect the haze moreso than anything else. I've never used more than a pound in my recipes. Next in line would most likely be proteins from oats/rye/wheat. Not sure if you've ever had anything from Tree House, but they are known for their super hazy neipas. I've had cans of theirs last a few months, and they pour just as hazy as day one. They claim to use no oats in Julius, their flagship. That thing pours like pulpy orange juice. The same can't be said for Heady Topper from Alchemist. That pours hazy on day one, but if left in the fridge for a few weeks, it clears (although you get a lot of floaters, which I'm not a huge fan of, yet other people like it).

Maybe I need to use more hops....

Actually, I have a bunch of cans of Haze, Julius and Alter Ego in my fridge right now from a Maine beer run a couple weeks ago. I love their beer and that you can get cases of it now but I'm NOT a fan of their lack of using anything to hold those cans together. At some point in a 750 mile drive you're going to have to hit the brakes and suddenly you have loose cans of beer all over the car! :-D

The amounts seem to count and so do the hops themselves to some degree. I've done a Sip of Sunshine clone a few times and it uses a bunch of Citra but is easy to clear, if you want it clear. On the other hand, I've done a Belma smash that wouldn't clear up to save my life. Cold crashed it for several days with gelatin and it was as hazy after that treatment as it was before it and was just as hazy when the keg kicked. When I got another pound of that hop I brewed it again with the same result. I recall Cashmere being like that, too.

People laughed when I told them my Swish clone took that many oz of hops but they sure liked that beer when it went on tap at the brewpub. Scored almost a 4.25 on Untappd.

 

[isomerization]

I'm sure hop amounts affect the haze moreso than anything else. I've never used more than a pound in my recipes. Next in line would most likely be proteins from oats/rye/wheat. Not sure if you've ever had anything from Tree House, but they are known for their super hazy neipas. I've had cans of theirs last a few months, and they pour just as hazy as day one. They claim to use no oats in Julius, their flagship. That thing pours like pulpy orange juice. The same can't be said for Heady Topper from Alchemist. That pours hazy on day one, but if left in the fridge for a few weeks, it clears (although you get a lot of floaters, which I'm not a huge fan of, yet other people like it).

Maybe I need to use more hops....

It’s not just total amount of hops, but the specific varietals (is that what we call different hops?) and their specific attributes (eg high polyphenol content) that can drive persistent haze formation. @couchsending can drop some knowledge here.

 

[wepeeler]

Actually, I have a bunch of cans of Haze, Julius and Alter Ego in my fridge right now from a Maine beer run a couple weeks ago. I love their beer and that you can get cases of it now but I'm NOT a fan of their lack of using anything to hold those cans together. At some point in a 750 mile drive you're going to have to hit the brakes and suddenly you have loose cans of beer all over the car! :-D

The amounts seem to count and so do the hops themselves to some degree. I've done a Sip of Sunshine clone a few times and it uses a bunch of Citra but is easy to clear, if you want it clear. On the other hand, I've done a Belma smash that wouldn't clear up to save my life. Cold crashed it for several days with gelatin and it was as hazy after that treatment as it was before it and was just as hazy when the keg kicked. When I got another pound of that hop I brewed it again with the same result. I recall Cashmere being like that, too.

People laughed when I told them my Swish clone took that many oz of hops but they sure liked that beer when it went on tap at the brewpub. Scored almost a 4.25 on Untappd.

Ahh, good deal man. I actually got into brewing after drinking TH. An old college buddy of mine said we could brew stuff like that, and I didn't believe him. Not saying what we brew is exactly TH, but I've stopped doing bi-weekly trips up there, because of what I have in my keg! And yeah, their cans in a box method can be grating. I've done the brake job thing, and they went EVERYWHERE. I saw a guy drop a box in the parking lot one time too. Funny seeing bearded middle aged men running around after cans - haha.

Never done a Sip clone. I like that beer, but it's a bit too bitter for me. More of a West Coast ipa imo. I'm 100% into these neipas at the moment, and it's what I brew most often. Doing a 2 row, wheat, oats and touch of honey malt tomorrow. Citra/Mosaic. Can't wait.

On the haze front, it has to be a combination of hops, water chemistry, and proteins. And like @isomerization stated above me, specific hop varietals certainly attribute to more/less haze.

 

[rodwha]

Ahh, good deal man. I actually got into brewing after drinking TH. An old college buddy of mine said we could brew stuff like that, and I didn't believe him. Not saying what we brew is exactly TH, but I've stopped doing bi-weekly trips up there, because of what I have in my keg! And yeah, their cans in a box method can be grating. I've done the brake job thing, and they went EVERYWHERE. I saw a guy drop a box in the parking lot one time too. Funny seeing bearded middle aged men running around after cans - haha.

Never done a Sip clone. I like that beer, but it's a bit too bitter for me. More of a West Coast ipa imo. I'm 100% into these neipas at the moment, and it's what I brew most often. Doing a 2 row, wheat, oats and touch of honey malt tomorrow. Citra/Mosaic. Can't wait.

On the haze front, it has to be a combination of hops, water chemistry, and proteins. And like @isomerization stated above me, specific hop varietals certainly attribute to more/less haze.

You mentioned west coast style and too bitter. I’m rather curious as not being all that bitter, yet being over the top hop forward was my understanding of the style.

When I brew an IPA I typically use 1/2 oz of Warrior @ 70 mins and 2-2.5 oz of high AA hops @ 21 and 7 mins, along with about 4 oz in a whirlpool and 4 more in a dry hop. These generally hit 100+ IBUs but aren’t bitter. I once tried no “bittering” addition with equal amounts at 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins with a whirlpool and found it bizarrely lacking a bitterness.

 

[wepeeler]

You mentioned west coast style and too bitter. I’m rather curious as not being all that bitter, yet being over the top hop forward was my understanding of the style.

When I brew an IPA I typically use 1/2 oz of Warrior @ 70 mins and 2-2.5 oz of high AA hops @ 21 and 7 mins, along with about 4 oz in a whirlpool and 4 more in a dry hop. These generally hit 100+ IBUs but aren’t bitter. I once tried no “bittering” addition with equal amounts at 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins with a whirlpool and found it bizarrely lacking a bitterness.

Most West Coast IPAs I've had are much more bitter when compared to the New England or North East IPA. WC usually showcase hops that are piney and resin and are higher in detectable IBU. They also tend to be clear. Neipas can have high IBU, but they are usually detected as very soft and juicy. I think perception is very subjective. So a 70 IBU WC vs a 70 IBU neipa could be perceived totally differently.

My neipa schedule would be 0.5 oz warrior/columbus at 60, then either all flameout at 160F, OR 0.5 oz warrior/columbus and much smaller amounts added during the boil, with a big charge at 160F. I find 0.5 oz at 60 is fine for this style. Every one I've shared it with usually tells me to make it more bitter. Personally, I prefer soft bitterness or a "sweeter" beer, so I'm afraid to go too much on the bittering hops, for fear that I won't enjoy it, and I'll have to give it all away.

 

[MGamber]

Ahh, good deal man. I actually got into brewing after drinking TH. An old college buddy of mine said we could brew stuff like that, and I didn't believe him. Not saying what we brew is exactly TH, but I've stopped doing bi-weekly trips up there, because of what I have in my keg! And yeah, their cans in a box method can be grating. I've done the brake job thing, and they went EVERYWHERE. I saw a guy drop a box in the parking lot one time too. Funny seeing bearded middle aged men running around after cans - haha.

Never done a Sip clone. I like that beer, but it's a bit too bitter for me. More of a West Coast ipa imo. I'm 100% into these neipas at the moment, and it's what I brew most often. Doing a 2 row, wheat, oats and touch of honey malt tomorrow. Citra/Mosaic. Can't wait.

On the haze front, it has to be a combination of hops, water chemistry, and proteins. And like @isomerization stated above me, specific hop varietals certainly attribute to more/less haze.

Sip is my wife's favorite beer so I do it 2-3 times a year to make her happy. Otherwise I'm 100% NEIPA, too. It's true what they say, tho...I don't start out trying to make a hazy beer, just a fruity, soft, easy drinking, very hoppy beer with a really good feel and it just comes out hazy to the point where I don't think cold crashing and fining would do much and I don't care enough to mechanically filter. It's home brew, who cares how it looks?

 

[wepeeler]

Sip is my wife's favorite beer so I do it 2-3 times a year to make her happy. Otherwise I'm 100% NEIPA, too. It's true what they say, tho...I don't start out trying to make a hazy beer, just a fruity, soft, easy drinking, very hoppy beer with a really good feel and it just comes out hazy to the point where I don't think cold crashing and fining would do much and I don't care enough to mechanically filter. It's home brew, who cares how it looks?

What do you use for yeast for the Sip clone and for your neipas? I know certain yeasts don't floc well. Like Conan, which Alchemist uses. I would bet that TH uses blends of yeast, which probably aid in the haze as well. I've done neipas with Burlington, 1318, 1056 and WLP001. The Burlington yeast works quickly but does not floc well.

 

[MGamber]

Most West Coast IPAs I've had are much more bitter when compared to the New England or North East IPA. WC usually showcase hops that are piney and resin and are higher in detectable IBU. They also tend to be clear. Neipas can have high IBU, but they are usually detected as very soft and juicy. I think perception is very subjective. So a 70 IBU WC vs a 70 IBU neipa could be perceived totally differently.

My neipa schedule would be 0.5 oz warrior/columbus at 60, then either all flameout at 160F, OR 0.5 oz warrior/columbus and much smaller amounts added during the boil, with a big charge at 160F. I find 0.5 oz at 60 is fine for this style. Every one I've shared it with usually tells me to make it more bitter. Personally, I prefer soft bitterness or a "sweeter" beer, so I'm afraid to go too much on the bittering hops, for fear that I won't enjoy it, and I'll have to give it all away.

Indeed, the local brewpub I brewed out put out a couple NEIPA style beers and, like a lot of other breweries that tried their hand at it, they were way to bitter. I took over a mixed case of NEIPA cans from Tree House, Wormtown, Stoneface and many from the Portland, ME area and they next one they did nailed it. Nice and soft, like 60 IBU but little perceived bitterness, easy to drink, super fruity and an aroma that jumped out of the glass at you. They always have one, usually more, on tap now and they're always very good.

 

[MGamber]

What do you use for yeast for the Sip clone and for your neipas? I know certain yeasts don't floc well. Like Conan, which Alchemist uses. I would bet that TH uses blends of yeast, which probably aid in the haze as well. I've done neipas with Burlington, 1318, 1056 and WLP001. The Burlington yeast works quickly but does not floc well.

I use Conan (Vermont IPA) or Imperial Juice for almost everything these days. For Sip I use Conan and ferment high to get those peach and apricot esters. For everything else I usually ferment low to keep esters at a minimum. I've read that TH uses a mix that, from what I've read, is mostly US-04. Conan isn't bad as far as flocculating. If you really want it to drop out, stick in a fridge set low for 2 days and almost everything drops out. It's also super aggressive after a couple generations and will chew through wort in a few days plus I've had bubbles in the blow-off jug as soon as 45 minutes after pitching. I'm working on a clone of Liquid Riot's NSFW NE triple IPA and I'm thinking I'm going to have to 001 for that just because it's an 11% beer. I've also had good luck with Omega's Tropical IPA yeast but I've only used it once so far. Made a hell of a good beer, tho. The esters it gave off paired very well with the citra and amarillo hops.

 

[wepeeler]

I use Conan (Vermont IPA) or Imperial Juice for almost everything these days. For Sip I use Conan and ferment high to get those peach and apricot esters. For everything else I usually ferment low to keep esters at a minimum. I've read that TH uses a mix that, from what I've read, is mostly US-04. Conan isn't bad as far as flocculating. If you really want it to drop out, stick in a fridge set low for 2 days and almost everything drops out. It's also super aggressive after a couple generations and will chew through wort in a few days plus I've had bubbles in the blow-off jug as soon as 45 minutes after pitching. I'm working on a clone of Liquid Riot's NSFW NE triple IPA and I'm thinking I'm going to have to 001 for that just because it's an 11% beer. I've also had good luck with Omega's Tropical IPA yeast but I've only used it once so far. Made a hell of a good beer, tho. The esters it gave off paired very well with the citra and amarillo hops.

Interesting. I wonder if Burlington is Conan? I got yeast bite when I tried my Burlington neipa at first. Never got that with 1318. 001 made a killer beer. I'd be interested in your Sip recipe if you want to shoot me a PM.

 

[MGamber]

Interesting. I wonder if Burlington is Conan? I got yeast bite when I tried my Burlington neipa at first. Never got that with 1318. 001 made a killer beer. I'd be interested in your Sip recipe if you want to shoot me a PM.

I'm pretty sure Burlington, Vermont IPA and a couple others the names of which I can't recall offhand are Conan or something very close to it. London Ale III has a lot of the same qualities but I'm not sure if it's actually Conan. Of the varieties I've tried, Vermont IPA was by far my favorite, especially after a couple brew generations. I overbuild starters using 1.040 gravity wort. By the second or third generation, it's crazy how active the fermentation is. I've taken videos and sent it to friends. The blow off jug sounds like a machine gun.

Oh...Omega DIPA yeast...that's the other one I tried. I thought Vermont IPA was the most aggressive and gave off the cleanest and most prominent esters. I think it's also the least expensive.

 

[wepeeler]

I'm pretty sure Burlington, Vermont IPA and a couple others the names of which I can't recall offhand are Conan or something very close to it. London Ale III has a lot of the same qualities but I'm not sure if it's actually Conan. Of the varieties I've tried, Vermont IPA was by far my favorite, especially after a couple brew generations. I overbuild starters using 1.040 gravity wort. By the second or third generation, it's crazy how active the fermentation is. I've taken videos and sent it to friends. The blow off jug sounds like a machine gun.

Oh...Omega DIPA yeast...that's the other one I tried. I thought Vermont IPA was the most aggressive and gave off the cleanest and most prominent esters. I think it's also the least expensive.

Good to know. I just started harvesting yeast 2 weeks ago. So I'll have my first second generation fermentation happening soon. I've heard the second generation yeast do an even better job! Plus, I get to save $8 a batch

 

[MGamber]

Good to know. I just started harvesting yeast 2 weeks ago. So I'll have my first second generation fermentation happening soon. I've heard the second generation yeast do an even better job! Plus, I get to save $8 a batch

Yup and yup! It's not cheap, especially with shipping. I've taken mine out as far as 16 generations before buying a new batch and I only did that out of paranoia, the yeast itself looked and smelled fine and the last batch was as awesome as the second. I'm on generation 4 or 5 of the current crop and I might take that to 20 or so. Same with Imperial Juice.

When I bought everything at the local homebrew shop, a batch of my Swish clone was around $95 a batch. Since buying hops in bulk from Yakima Valley Hops, overbuilding yeast starters and buying 50 pound grain sacks, it's dropped to about $70 a batch. Still expensive for 5 gallons of beer but it is my favorite IPA ever and it's still $25 a batch cheaper. Plus I don't have to drive 1000 miles and stay in a hotel to get it. :-D

Oh...and stand in the wind, cold and rain for an hour in Portland, ME in November like two weeks ago. It's fun, tho. I get to talk really good beer with a lot of new friends every trip up. Which is embarrassingly often. Inevitably someone asks where I'm from, I tell them, they ask where that is and I say "about 60 miles west of Philly". They go nuts about Tired Hands and how often do I get there and blah blah blah. I say "I've been there twice. I'm here 5 or 6 times a year and have to drive 1000 miles to be here. That should tell you something." :-D

 

[Northern_Brewer]

London Ale III has a lot of the same qualities but I'm not sure if it's actually Conan.

It's not. 1318 is most closely related to 1098/WLP017 Whitbread II, whereas Conan is closely related to 1968 within the WLP002/007 group. Conan seems to be a bit cleaner, 1318 seems to do a bit of hop biotransformation for a more complex flavour at slightly reduced intensity - some people like one, some the other. See eg Scott Janish.

John Kimmich uses Conan for 7-8 generations - it just starts cycling "in" and "out" beyond that and he can tell which generation a particular batch of Heady Topper uses.

Conan seems to be quite mutable and different versions can be quite different - people seem to think White Labs WLP095 is a bit subdued, whereas Yeast Bay WLP4000 is rather shoutier. In all cases, it seems to need a generation or two to really get going with ester production.

It was this thread on HBT that identified the Tree House yeast as looking like a mix of dry yeasts through a mix of DNA analysis and experimental brewing - somewhere around 90:7:3 S-04:T-58:WB-06 seems to get pretty close.

Other yeast that are commonly used are WLP644 Sacc "Trois" and equivalents (if you see a yeast company talking about pineapple from a yeast, 644 is in there somewhere either singly or as a blend) and people are starting to play with kveiks like Hornindal. Oh and WLP066 London Fog has its own thread.

 

[MGamber]

It's not. 1318 is most closely related to 1098/WLP017 Whitbread II, whereas Conan is closely related to 1968 within the WLP002/007 group. Conan seems to be a bit cleaner, 1318 seems to do a bit of hop biotransformation for a more complex flavour at slightly reduced intensity - some people like one, some the other. See eg Scott Janish.

John Kimmich uses Conan for 7-8 generations - it just starts cycling "in" and "out" beyond that and he can tell which generation a particular batch of Heady Topper uses.

Conan seems to be quite mutable and different versions can be quite different - people seem to think White Labs WLP095 is a bit subdued, whereas Yeast Bay WLP4000 is rather shoutier. In all cases, it seems to need a generation or two to really get going with ester production.

It was this thread on HBT that identified the Tree House yeast as looking like a mix of dry yeasts through a mix of DNA analysis and experimental brewing - somewhere around 90:7:3 S-04:T-58:WB-06 seems to get pretty close.

Other yeast that are commonly used are WLP644 Sacc "Trois" and equivalents (if you see a yeast company talking about pineapple from a yeast, 644 is in there somewhere either singly or as a blend) and people are starting to play with kveiks like Hornindal. Oh and WLP066 London Fog has its own thread.

Yeah, I read that from John Kimmich and I did think about that but I never noticed a difference well beyond that many generations so maybe it's a moot point on the 5 gallon scale. I also notice that Conan seems to do quite well with biotransformation. I figured London Ale III wasn't Conan. It seems similar in a lot of ways but ester production is muted compared to Conan and it's not nearly as aggressive, by my experience. It definitely has it's place, tho, and London Ale III was used instead of Conan when I brewed 7 bbl of my Swish clone simply because it was available and it did a great job.

Thanks for the info!

 

[couchsending]

It’s not just total amount of hops, but the specific varietals (is that what we call different hops?) and their specific attributes (eg high polyphenol content) that can drive persistent haze formation. @couchsending can drop some knowledge here.

Not sure about “knowledge” but from the research I’ve done and the hundreds of hoppy/hazy beers I’ve brewed there is definitely a correlation between certain hops and haze (as well as mouthfeel).

I’m sure dry hop amounts have an impact on certain aspects of haze but not as much as polyphenol/oil content combined with yeast strain.

If I dry hop during fermentation it’s maybe 1/8 of the total dry hop and it’s always within 1-.5 Plato from FG. I will usually soft crash to a certain temp and let a decent amount of yeast settle before dry hopping. And I now keep the temps below 63 or so. Beers that are almost clear before DH will remain permanently hazy for more than a month in a keg.

The Australian hops specifically are higher in polyphenol content than most others. A heavily dry hopped Galaxy beer will stay hazy pretty much regardless of what you do, or at least has in my experience. The thing is that it’s not only variety dependent but lot and crop year dependent. There were a lot of brewers that noticed when they changed from 2015 to 2016 Citra the beers were hazier with zero process change.

In my opinion polyphenol content plays the biggest role in haze. You don’t need wheat or oats or crazy “biotransformation” dry hop additions for haze stability. Nor is it necessarily water related.

 

[rodwha]

Most West Coast IPAs I've had are much more bitter when compared to the New England or North East IPA. WC usually showcase hops that are piney and resin and are higher in detectable IBU. They also tend to be clear. Neipas can have high IBU, but they are usually detected as very soft and juicy. I think perception is very subjective. So a 70 IBU WC vs a 70 IBU neipa could be perceived totally differently.

My neipa schedule would be 0.5 oz warrior/columbus at 60, then either all flameout at 160F, OR 0.5 oz warrior/columbus and much smaller amounts added during the boil, with a big charge at 160F. I find 0.5 oz at 60 is fine for this style. Every one I've shared it with usually tells me to make it more bitter. Personally, I prefer soft bitterness or a "sweeter" beer, so I'm afraid to go too much on the bittering hops, for fear that I won't enjoy it, and I'll have to give it all away.

Interesting. I’ve never heard that piney/resiny was a descriptor for a west coast IPA. In fact I thought it began mostly as citrusy:

It would seem that the mild amount of hops used for bittering is on que. Granted it’s claimed late additions add bitter as well, though I certainly don’t perceive it as such, but then I like strong dark roast coffee, it certainly adds to the flavor of the hops, which is what I’ve been after. Added with a sizeable whirlpool it is certainly hop forward.

I’m wondering what the difference really is outside of mine not being hazy. I can’t say the few Hazy/Juicy/NEIPA’s I’ve had could be called malty, whereas east coast styles, from what I thought I understood, often were.

Typically for a standard IPA I lean towards a citrusy hop(s). I do feel a piney/resiny profile is adequate for a black IPA, which isn’t to say I don’t feel it belongs in a standard IPA.

For myself I usually used about 1/4 to 1/2 lb of crystal malts for color mostly. But I usually don’t use simple sugars to thin it as some say is common with various IPAs, though I have tried it just because it was said, which didn’t really seem to make a big enough impact on anything but ABV and cost really.

 

[wepeeler]

Yup and yup! It's not cheap, especially with shipping. I've taken mine out as far as 16 generations before buying a new batch and I only did that out of paranoia, the yeast itself looked and smelled fine and the last batch was as awesome as the second. I'm on generation 4 or 5 of the current crop and I might take that to 20 or so. Same with Imperial Juice.

When I bought everything at the local homebrew shop, a batch of my Swish clone was around $95 a batch. Since buying hops in bulk from Yakima Valley Hops, overbuilding yeast starters and buying 50 pound grain sacks, it's dropped to about $70 a batch. Still expensive for 5 gallons of beer but it is my favorite IPA ever and it's still $25 a batch cheaper. Plus I don't have to drive 1000 miles and stay in a hotel to get it. :-D

Oh...and stand in the wind, cold and rain for an hour in Portland, ME in November like two weeks ago. It's fun, tho. I get to talk really good beer with a lot of new friends every trip up. Which is embarrassingly often. Inevitably someone asks where I'm from, I tell them, they ask where that is and I say "about 60 miles west of Philly". They go nuts about Tired Hands and how often do I get there and blah blah blah. I say "I've been there twice. I'm here 5 or 6 times a year and have to drive 1000 miles to be here. That should tell you something." :-D

That's good to hear about the yeast. I'm super psyched to keep a running loop in my fridge. And I can't wait to see if I can actually tell if there's a batch to batch difference.

As far as making trips for beer, I'm in CT, and I used to routinely go to TH. Now that I've started brewing what I consider to be good neipas, I've cut my trips to maybe once every 2 months. I still enjoy their beer, and consider it among the best, but I've had so much of it, and it can hit the wallet quite hard. VT trips are also a ton of fun. Never made it to ME. That's on the bucket list. Portland, especially. Bissell Bros, Liquid Riot, Allagash etc

Interesting. I’ve never heard that piney/resiny was a descriptor for a west coast IPA. In fact I thought it began mostly as citrusy:

It would seem that the mild amount of hops used for bittering is on que. Granted it’s claimed late additions add bitter as well, though I certainly don’t perceive it as such, but then I like strong dark roast coffee, it certainly adds to the flavor of the hops, which is what I’ve been after. Added with a sizeable whirlpool it is certainly hop forward.

I’m wondering what the difference really is outside of mine not being hazy. I can’t say the few Hazy/Juicy/NEIPA’s I’ve had could be called malty, whereas east coast styles, from what I thought I understood, often were.

Typically for a standard IPA I lean towards a citrusy hop(s). I do feel a piney/resiny profile is adequate for a black IPA, which isn’t to say I don’t feel it belongs in a standard IPA.

For myself I usually used about 1/4 to 1/2 lb of crystal malts for color mostly. But I usually don’t use simple sugars to thin it as some say is common with various IPAs, though I have tried it just because it was said, which didn’t really seem to make a big enough impact on anything but ABV and cost really.

West coast IPAs have also been described as fruity/citrusy, but not in the same light as the neipa. You can often get grapefruit forward WC IPAs, but they are not the juice bombs that a typical neipa is. Usually they are more bitter, but again, that perception could be because they aren't using the same yeasts or adjuncts as the neipas. A lot of experimentation has been done with the neipa in the past few years, but the common theme is usually haze, juicy, fruity, sometimes even milky sweet ie lactose. Nothing like that resembles a WC IPA. Think if Sierra Nevada IPA. You could describe that as citrus forward, but it's certainly perceived to be more bitter and clean than say, a Julius from TH. The IBUs could be in the same ballpark, but the TH beer has a much softer mouthfeel, and has a load more hops, probably later in the boil or flameout than the SN. The perceived bitterness from each it totally different. Same for say a Green Flash. It's rated super high, but I think it's terrible. It's a bitter mess, imo. Next to a neipa, it's an entirely different ipa.

I personally never add crystal to any neipas. Typically, you want the lightest color possible, whereas in a WC IPA, a little amber is widely accepted.

 

[MGamber]

That's good to hear about the yeast. I'm super psyched to keep a running loop in my fridge. And I can't wait to see if I can actually tell if there's a batch to batch difference.

As far as making trips for beer, I'm in CT, and I used to routinely go to TH. Now that I've started brewing what I consider to be good neipas, I've cut my trips to maybe once every 2 months. I still enjoy their beer, and consider it among the best, but I've had so much of it, and it can hit the wallet quite hard. VT trips are also a ton of fun. Never made it to ME. That's on the bucket list. Portland, especially. Bissell Bros, Liquid Riot, Allagash etc

Quite hard, yes! That's one of my favorite things about Bissell...A 4 pack of Swish is $17 and a 4 pack of Substance, a very solid IPA, is $13! Trillium and Tree House (and a bunch of others) should be ashamed at their pricing for lesser beer than Swish.

Portland has a TON of great breweries in Foundation, Austin St, Battery Steele, Definitive, Mast Landing, Bunker, Oxbow, Foulmouthed, Good Fire, Lone Pine, Rising Tide, Liquid Riot, Bissell Brothers, Banded Horn, to name a few, and Stoneface, near Portsmouth NH, is just a few minutes off I-95 and makes a lot of solid stuff, too. Madden Beverage, in Saco ME and again a few minutes off I-95 is an excellent bottle shop, too. I'll probably be up that way again in February for another Swish release. Not to mention that it's a cool city with a LOT of really good food.

One of the best things about the brewing scene is that everyone I've spoken with is very open about their process and, usually, recipes. I took the tour at Allagash one day and, at the end, the woman asked if there were any questions. I asked how long it took to bring the wort to a boil and she didn't know so she had a brewer come talk to me. We talked for about 45 minutes about his process when he home brewed and it got me started on the path of doing eveything in kegs, pushing the beer with CO2, oxygenation and so on, all of which led to my winning a local competition and brewing in a 7 bbl brewpub. I spoke with Pete Bissell a couple weeks ago and showed him a picture of the ribbons and how I got them and laughed and said "That's f*****g awesome!" and so far I haven't been served any court documents. :-D

 

[couchsending]

Quite hard, yes! That's one of my favorite things about Bissell...A 4 pack of Swish is $17 and a 4 pack of Substance, a very solid IPA, is $13! Trillium and Tree House (and a bunch of others) should be ashamed at their pricing for lesser beer than Swish.

I'm amazed people like Substance so much. To me it smells like Onions and weed. I personally wouldn't put any Bissell Brothers beer I've
had on the same level as Treehouse, maybe Trillium when they're off. They're good beers but not quite the same level of execution.

If you want to clone Bissell Brother's beer their yeast is Wyeast 1272. The Liberty Ale strain.

Conan and London Ale III couldn't be more different. One is a high attenuating, low floccing strain. The other is a medium attenuator,
medium floccing strain. They produce vastly different beers. LAIII is soft and sweet, Conan is much drier and slightly more acidic (and more
prone to diacetyl)

 

[MGamber]

I'm amazed people like Substance so much. To me it smells like Onions and weed. I personally wouldn't put any Bissell Brothers beer I've
had on the same level as Treehouse, maybe Trillium when they're off. They're good beers but not quite the same level of execution.

If you want to clone Bissell Brother's beer their yeast is Wyeast 1272. The Liberty Ale strain.

Conan and London Ale III couldn't be more different. One is a high attenuating, low floccing strain. The other is a medium attenuator,
medium floccing strain. They produce vastly different beers. LAIII is soft and sweet, Conan is much drier and slightly more acidic (and more
prone to diacetyl)

Different people have different tastes. To me both taste like a tropical paradise.

 

[Nate R]

So i'm sitting at a 22 tap beer bar, away from home on a buisness trip.
There are 6 NEIPA/ "HAZY" beers on the board. The stuff is selling.

I hesitate to bring this thread back to life, but i'm 2 in, so... has anyone tried Moonraker out of Auburn CA (outside of Sacramento CA)? I have not had Heady (but i will trade Pliny for it!! Hit me up!) So i cannot compare.

 

[kevink]

So i'm sitting at a 22 tap beer bar, away from home on a buisness trip.
There are 6 NEIPA/ "HAZY" beers on the board. The stuff is selling.

I hesitate to bring this thread back to life, but i'm 2 in, so... has anyone tried Moonraker out of Auburn CA (outside of Sacramento CA)? I have not had Heady (but i will trade Pliny for it!! Hit me up!) So i cannot compare.

I had Sling Jaw about a year ago and thought it was a top-tier NEIPA. Way better than Heady and much better than Pliny which I don't care for at all.