Haze on BetterBottle, can I fix it?

[RmikeVT]

I have been using BetterBottles and other similar PET carboys with no issues for years. Recently, one of my newer (maybe a year old) BetterBottles developed a haze on the inside that almost looks like condensation that I can't seem to get rid of. I typically clean with poor mans pbw (oxiclean and tsp90). I doesnt seem to have a negative impact on brewing as my beers have turned out fine, but I'd like to get rid of the haze. I have some pictures:View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1427895265.126754.jpg

 

[cosmatics]

My guess is that haze is there to stay, I've had similar experience with different plastics over the years, and its annoying as hell. Possibly a defect in the injection molding process that day?

 

[RmikeVT]

I don't really care about it as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on my brews. I would just like to know what it is or if I've caused it in some way. It seems to get worse with every cycle of brewing/cleaning.

 

[cosmatics]

I took a class in plastics, and it has a name, which escapes me at the moment, its related to the hot/cold cycle of the material, and comes up there due to some defect in the crystalline structure around that area. I'll look at one of my texts later when I get home. On a microscopic level I'm sure the surface is more porous but I don't think that should have any effect on anything, just my $.02.

 

[IslandLizard]

I took a class in plastics, and it has a name, which escapes me at the moment, its related to the hot/cold cycle of the material, and comes up there due to some defect in the crystalline structure around that area. I'll look at one of my texts later when I get home. On a microscopic level I'm sure the surface is more porous but I don't think that should have any effect on anything, just my $.02.

Crazing?

 

[cosmatics]

Ah yes, hence why I got a crappy grade in that class! I wonder if it is that, but its hard to tell. Thanks Lizard.

 

[HBngNOK]

Could it be hard water deposits? If so, a good rinse with white vinegar will remove the haze.

 

[IslandLizard]

Looks like beer stone. An acid should be able to remove it. Try some HCl (Muriatic Acid, 70-80% hardware store) diluted to 20%, perhaps? Not sure if that harms the plastic though.

 

[RmikeVT]

Thanks for the responses.

 

[RmikeVT]

Could it be hard water deposits? If so, a good rinse with white vinegar will remove the haze.

Possible, I have soft water but I know adding oxiclean/tsp90 to water makes it hard as it is an alkaline cleaner. I'm going to try using an acid solution to see if I can fix it. I emailed BetterBottle and they were no help. Just gave me the company line to clean it how they recommend cleaning on their website.

 

[RmikeVT]

Looks like beer stone. An acid should be able to remove it. Try some HCl (Muriatic Acid, 70-80% hardware store) diluted to 20%, perhaps? Not sure if that harms the plastic though.

Do you think star-san or vinegar would be acidic enough to remove if it were beer stone or some haze caused from hard water? I'm just curious, because I tried both to no avail.

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you think star-san or vinegar would be acidic enough to remove if it were beer stone or some haze caused from hard water? I'm just curious, because I tried both to no avail.

I doubt Starsan will do the job. Vinegar may. Worth a try. Beer stone is calcium oxalate, pretty tough stuff. It may work, slowly converting it to calcium acetate.

Are you removing these spots mainly for appearance or are you afraid of them harboring bugs?

Swishing the acid with a small rag may create enough friction to abrade the dissolving deposits off. Also add a teeny drop of dishwash detergent to break up surface tension.

 

[azazel1024]

I've generally found Oxyclean to do a pretty decent job. It isn't working on one of my BBs, but my others have gotten fairly clean with a soak in some hot water and oxyclean.

Since I started actually using a cleanser on my BBs, they have much reduced haze. Previously I had only been using soap and water when cleaning them out after bottling and then a 3-4 minute idophor and water soak before pitching the wort and yeast in on brew day. Now I am using hot water and oxyclean after bottling and it dissolves most of the stuck on stuff (I was VERY carefully using a bottle brush to very, very lightly clean off actual stuck on deposites that soap and water wouldn't clean off. Oxyclean and hot water often gets that stuff off 100% now).

 

[IslandLizard]

I've generally found Oxyclean to do a pretty decent job. It isn't working on one of my BBs, but my others have gotten fairly clean with a soak in some hot water and oxyclean.

Since I started actually using a cleanser on my BBs, they have much reduced haze. Previously I had only been using soap and water when cleaning them out after bottling and then a 3-4 minute idophor and water soak before pitching the wort and yeast in on brew day. Now I am using hot water and oxyclean after bottling and it dissolves most of the stuck on stuff (I was VERY carefully using a bottle brush to very, very lightly clean off actual stuck on deposites that soap and water wouldn't clean off. Oxyclean and hot water often gets that stuff off 100% now).

Careful with the temperature of that hot water, those plastic jugs don't like it too hot apparently. Their website has all kinds of "instructions" and "dos/do nots" in the most incomprehensive way listed, at least last time I checked.

120-140F water should be safe for them, don't you think?

 

[ten80]

Careful with acids, they can make plastic more brittle. I have heard that Starsan solution should not be stored in a BB for this reason. Brewery line cleaner should remove any beer stone. A soft rag swirled with line cleaner solution will likely do the trick.

 

[azazel1024]

Careful with the temperature of that hot water, those plastic jugs don't like it too hot apparently. Their website has all kinds of "instructions" and "dos/do nots" in the most incomprehensive way listed, at least last time I checked.

120-140F water should be safe for them, don't you think?

Err, hot tap water. I don't boil anything. My tap water is 118F at my kitchen faucet.

PET is safe to 190F IIRC, but no way I'd use anything approaching that hot.

 

[blizz81]

Err, hot tap water. I don't boil anything. My tap water is 118F at my kitchen faucet.

PET is safe to 190F IIRC, but no way I'd use anything approaching that hot.

I think my hot water comes out somewhere around 120-130*F, and before I'd realized that a friend was cleaning a new PET carboy with hot water, it had already deformed pretty good.


In just recently looking around due to another thread where it was mentioned that PBW / basic cleaners aren't recommended for PET, I did see a few places where people suggested such cleaners will haze PET and eventually cause cracks / failures.

 

[RmikeVT]

I doubt Starsan will do the job. Vinegar may. Worth a try. Beer stone is calcium oxalate, pretty tough stuff. It may work, slowly converting it to calcium acetate.

Are you removing these spots mainly for appearance or are you afraid of them harboring bugs?

Swishing the acid with a small rag may create enough friction to abrade the dissolving deposits off. Also add a teeny drop of dishwash detergent to break up surface tension.

I don't think its beer stone, I think it is a PET and Caustic cleaner issue. I'm worried I've created pitting or something along those lines that can harbor bugs.

 

[ten80]

if pitting, then it would be time to retire the better bottle to sour brewing or just use it as a water jug

 

[RmikeVT]

To any who are following along with this post. I've continued using the better bottle mentioned in this thread and while it still has the haze, I haven't had any problems with it effecting the quality of my beer.

 

[RmikeVT]

Plus three years. I ran into a situation where I had to really disinfect the PET carboy. I added 6g of water with 6tbs of clorox bleach. I let it sit for 24 hours and what do you know, that haze came off. So, for anyone looking for an answer on how to get the haze off on the inside of a Better Bottle or similar PET carboy, one potential solution is a 1 tbs to 1g clorox dilution for a 24 hour rinse.