Hard Cider Day 8!

[scottpureds]

Or more accurately Applewine, lol.

Ok so day 8!

I decided to sample it yesterday after 5 days of sitting in secondary. Sure enough after adding the extra apple juice it has started fermenting again but slower thankfully since Ive lowered the storage temperature.

The alcohol smell has dissipated a bit but so has the apple flavor a little. To be honest, it smells like piss, lol, which was freaking me out until my wife smelled it and said it smelled like wine!! Then I totally smelled wine. How normal is this type of smell?

I know that a high ABV cider is technically applewine, correct? (I believe this is around 10% with a super quick (and hot) 2.5day fermentation.

I also bottled 3 bottles so I can more easily sample in the coming weeks. With the carbonation still building I put them in a safe place to explode safely!! If they do.

I guess at this point I just want it to mild more, then Ill xylitol sweeten, bottle and pasteurize in the dishwasher. But Id love yalls thoughts on the taste.

How does homebrew cider taste compared to say, angry orchard?

 

[madscientist451]

How it tastes depends on many variables including what kind of apples, what yeast, if you add sugar or don't, fermentation temperature and length of aging. You stated it smelled like piss, and had lost some apple flavor, can you describe the taste you are getting after 8 days?
I don't taste my cider for at least 4-6 weeks, but I ferment slow at low temperature, and expect to age it at least 4-6 months before drinking any quantity of it.

 

[JimRausch]

Check out the thread by phug "SG of commercial ciders". Considering how homebrewed ciders ferment typically very dry, it's amazing how high the FGs of these commercial products are. In other words, how sweet they are.
So, long answer to a short question, but if you were hoping for something as sweet as Angry Orchard, you are going to have to backsweeten considerably and do something to stop the yeast from fermenting(sorbate plus Camden, or pasteurize).

 

[scottpureds]

Thanks for the replies guys. Im not worried about matching Angry Orchard but just using as context, or in comparison to.

Day 3 when I transferred to secondary:
a. Reeked of Alcohol
b. .996G
c. Slight carbonation
d. Very dry but with a hint of sweet surprisingly
e. Could definitely taste the apples

Day 8
a. Less alcohol smell, more piss smell (I believe that could be what some describe as sulfuric?) My wife said wine and then I agreed
b. dont know as I took the hygro out but clearly its fermenting the new juice
c. Medium-high carbonation
d. Less sweet than day 3
e. Very little apple flavor. Like alcohol then the hint of apple comes in the middle then wine flavor.

I definitely know that each batch has its differences but I'm anxious, as a noob, for an idea of what flavors are normal for homebrew cider if thats possible to know.

Ive asked before in context of other questions, is homebrew cider just like apple cider and alcohol?

NO WRONG ANSWERS IM JUST ENJOYING CHATTING ABOUT IT.

 

[scottpureds]

OH YEAH! And since it no longer needs to ferment I took 2 of the 3 bottles and put em in the dishwasher to pasteurize. I wanna see if 1. they don't pop, 2. If it changes the flavor at all and 3. If it truly will stop the yeast. So ill drink one and let the other continue to sit.

Its funny how you can find contradicting views for every aspect of homebrewing, lol. So I'm finding out for myself!

 

[scottpureds]

OH YEAH! And since it no longer needs to ferment I took 2 of the 3 bottles and put em in the dishwasher to pasteurize. I wanna see if 1. they don't pop, 2. If it changes the flavor at all and 3. If it truly will stop the yeast. So ill drink one and let the other continue to sit.

Its funny how you can find contradicting views for every aspect of homebrewing, lol. So I'm finding out for myself!

 

[madscientist451]

"I"ve asked before in context of other questions, is homebrew cider just like apple cider and alcohol? "

No, but it can be if you make it a certain way and that's what you want.
If you want it to taste like Angry Orchard, you need to get the blend of juice and what variety of yeast they use and then ferment at the temperature they do and probably go through some other steps.
They are selling 8 million cases a year at $32-$35 a case (retail) and they probably aren't going to be divulging their process anytime soon.
Some brands of beer have been successfully cloned and the recipes are readily available, but apples are much different than beer ingredients, there are so many more variables and no real established styles.
All I can say is try make the best cider you can with the ingredients you can get in your area using a process that your time, equipment and skill level will allow. Have fun making it and drinking it, Cheers!

 

[MarkKF]

I've concluded that big comm. cider and artisan/home made cider are two totally different things marketed to different types of people

If comm. cider is what you want make a 10% cider cold crash and clear. Then mix it 50/50% with Apple juice full of preservatives.

 

[scottpureds]

Thanks again but Im not looking for info on Angry Orchard Im trying to find out what homemade cider tastes/is like, generally.

Is it more acidic?
More real apple flavor?
Less apple flavor because they add apple flavor in commercial hard cider?
Tastes just a little different than applewine?
Smells like sulfur in most cases?
Tastes like commercial cider if you took all the sweetener out?

Im not looking for science or recipes here just yalls opinions on the smells and tastes in what YOU'VE made. Thanks!

 

[JimRausch]

Thanks again but Im not looking for info on Angry Orchard Im trying to find out what homemade cider tastes/is like, generally.

Is it more acidic?
More real apple flavor?
Less apple flavor because they add apple flavor in commercial hard cider?
Tastes just a little different than applewine?
Smells like sulfur in most cases?
Tastes like commercial cider if you took all the sweetener out?

Im not looking for science or recipes here just yalls opinions on the smells and tastes in what YOU'VE made. Thanks!

I'm just going by my own attempts- one straight cider and two grafs.
And IME, I would say, less sweet and less apple flavor than commercial (I used to drink a lot of Woodchuck, but didn't particularly like others). The sulfur smell during fermentation is fairly common from what I've seen in posts. I experienced it in only my straight cider. It disappears in a couple weeks.
My straight cider was definitely an applewine(I used 2 lb. honey and carbonated with 2 cans FAJ). Early on it reminded me of a dry champagne. I used to add 1/2 tsp. of table sugar to a glass when I had one. After 18 months or so, some of the apple flavor came back and it mellowed out. No added sugar now. The grafs were a successful attempt to retain some sweetness and apple flavor.

 

[scottpureds]

Awesome, ya its very dry with some of the bite of champagne.

I dishwashed 2 bottles yesterday and tried one today. They didn't explode so woo hoo! Carbonation was good, I immediately noticed a difference in taste. Everything was sharper apart from the smell which was milder. The alcohol, the bitter flavor, and even the apples were more identifyable. I gulped it for the first time and REALLY noticed the apple flavor. I can see it being good down the road. XD

My guess is the bitter taste is the yeast. Is that possible? There is still a LOT floating around even though I bottled from the top of the 3gal on day 8. The cider is super cloudy in this bottle and in the 3 gal. But the 2nd bottle I dishwashed is now HALF CLEAR!

Additionally, I know this cider is at least 9%. I had approximately 10oz in the bottle today and got a really clean buzz from it. No headache, which I was worried about because of possible fusel alcohols from the fast fermentation, and I did not get sleepy after the buzz wore off which is common with my commercial cider! (all the sugar possibly?)

Overall im stoked and gonna start a second five gal batch using Nottingham! Gonna really let it ferment slow this time hoping for an even better result.

 

[cidersage]

Thanks again but Im not looking for info on Angry Orchard Im trying to find out what homemade cider tastes/is like, generally.

Is it more acidic?
More real apple flavor?
Less apple flavor because they add apple flavor in commercial hard cider?
Tastes just a little different than applewine?
Smells like sulfur in most cases?
Tastes like commercial cider if you took all the sweetener out?

Im not looking for science or recipes here just yalls opinions on the smells and tastes in what YOU'VE made. Thanks!

I'll echo madscientist451's statements about it depending a lot on factors such as:

• kind of apples
• type of yeast used
• whether sugar was added and how much
• temperature of fermentation
• aging

And then I'll add my two cents...

Apples:

As far as apples go, there's a ton of variability between the many different apple varieties as far as flavor, sugar content, acid content, and tannin content is concerned. If you're like most of us, you don't have a lot of cider-specific fruit (e.g., bittersweets like Dabinett or bittersharps like Kingston Black or Foxwhelp).

Most of what you're going to get in many regions in the U.S. is going to be from culinary apples like Jonathan, Golden Delicious, and the varieties you've seen at grocery stores. These tend to be sweet with hardly any bitterness or tannin, and not very acidic unless you're including varieties like Granny Smith or the culinary varieties of crab apple (e.g., Dolgo) in the mix.

So when you ferment out the sugars from these table fruit varieties, you've got some pretty thin, dry, champagne-like stuff. Added sugar doesn't help this situation much, as--with some exceptions--most of it will ferment all the way out, just like the simple sugars from the apples.

If you want more body, you might consider options such as crab apples or tannin additives or oak (chips or spirals, typically), which I talk about a bit here (the ripeness discussion is also pertinent to the apple flavor discussion):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cider-beginners-508303/index2.html#post6617741

Here's a post I wrote about the shortage of hard cider apples as pertains to the cider industry, and what they are doing about it:

http://cidersage.com/hard-cider-apples-hard-to-find/

It's pretty basic--I need to beef it up quite a bit, either on the blog or on homebrewtalk somewhere...there are a ton of apple varieties out there that are good for cider, not all of them European cider varieties, but it often takes some leg work to find them.

Aging:

Cider definitely takes longer to mature than beer and often takes a while to clarify--even with pectic enzyme additions. I've almost thrown a cider out a couple different times when tasting it right after primary fermentation. Don't do it! After a few months and a few rackings, it's likely to be dramatically different, much clearer, and much better than right after initial fermentation.

The only ciders I've made that didn't eventually clear by themselves were those in which I've added ingredients like brown sugar that added a ton of their own compounds to the mix.

If possible, invest in an extra carboy or two and try to change your expectations of how quickly your cider should be good. It can be quite tasty within a couple months, but just because it isn't great now doesn't mean it won't improve.

Apple Flavor:

It's hard to exceed the uniform, consistently strong apple flavor of a lot of the commercial ciders for the simple reason that they often use concentrates or essences in their products. Cider made from nothing but apples varies a lot from year to year and blend to blend, and can have fabulous flavors, but it will very seldom have that intense, green apple candy flavor that you can find in some ciders.

It's an odd state of affairs that nobody really expects wine to taste just like grape juice, but big cider-makers still seem to think cider drinkers want the end product to taste like apple juice made from a frozen concentrate.

Times will change, though...there are more and more artisan ciders on the market these days, so we can expect folks like Woodchuck to begin to innovate rapidly or die (Woodchuck is already expanding their lineup quite a bit to include more interesting things, for instance).

 

[scottpureds]

Great info! Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't aware that brown sugar could cause clarity issues, how interesting. I did in fact use brown sugar, won't next time though for the simple reason I'll just focus on AJconcentrate for sugars and more flavor/complexity. I'm also going to look into tannin this next time.

Do you think, as I mentioned, that the yeast itself (especially with so much still in suspension) that it is a majority of the bitterness? I guess when I rack I'll taste the yeast just for a reference but am curious if that's your experience.

Thanks!

 

[cidersage]

Great info! Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't aware that brown sugar could cause clarity issues, how interesting. I did in fact use brown sugar, won't next time though for the simple reason I'll just focus on AJconcentrate for sugars and more flavor/complexity. I'm also going to look into tannin this next time.

Do you think, as I mentioned, that the yeast itself (especially with so much still in suspension) that it is a majority of the bitterness? I guess when I rack I'll taste the yeast just for a reference but am curious if that's your experience.

Thanks!

You may or may not encounter the same brown sugar issues I did--I used a lot of very dark, organic sugars (like, 5 lbs in a 5 gallon batch) and I think that was rather extreme.

Not sure re: the bitterness aspect. I have noticed that, when using yeasts that add flavor characteristics (e.g., Belgian ale yeasts), ciders display those flavors very prominently due to apples' relatively delicate flavor profile compared to, say, a bunch of dark malt and/or hops.

A friend shared a relatively straightforward cider with me a while back that was made with Belgian Ale yeast, and it was massively dominated by banana and clove flavors that I know weren't in the apples. It was really good, though, just not what you'd generally expect in a cider.

 

[acemannw]

Your process sounds exactly like what I had in my last batch. It would come out pretty dry and I ended up calling it Apple Champagne due to how dry I had fermented it. I had a little bit of the sulfuric smell as well. I did rack it to secondary and that seemed to help a bunch. When I moved it, I was pretty nervous that I had ruined it somehow with some odd bacteria or something but it turned out really good in the end. We drank most of it at Christmas it was a big hit at my family get together.