Hard apple cider failure.

[ryanapfel]

I made this cider from the recipe on this site

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/caramel-apple-cider-235368

I followed the recipe, let it ferment for 3 weeks. Then tasted it as I bottled. It was disgusting. Really strong bitter alcohol taste, sour aftertaste. No sweetness at all, there was no mold or floaters, and it had an odd, almost sour smell. After reading the comments that says it was almost drinkable before any bottle conditioning I realized that my cider is not going to mellow out after a couple weeks in the bottle. Does anyone have any idea what could have gone wrong?

 

[phug]

care to run us through your methodology? what did you sanitize? what did you not, what tools and equipment did you use? What temperature did you ferment at? details please, the more the better

 

[barnaclebob]

Did you taste it before adding the honey?

Not sure why they call that a good beginners recipe. A good beginners recipe is to get a jug of preservative free apple cider and then to add dry yeast of your choosing.

 

[ryanapfel]

I'm using a mr beer fermenter. everything that touched anything got sanitized. I fermented for 3 weeks at 70 degrees in a temperature controled refrigerator.
I'm deffinatly no pro brewer but this was my 5th brew (first cider tho) and all my other brews have come out as exspected.

I tasted it before and after adding honey and I don't think adding the honey changed the flavor hardly at all. That's how strong the alcohol flavor was. All that honey didn't change the flavor much.
The only thing I can think is that the yeast was somehow bad? The reason I think this is because in all my other brews, the (white stuff at the bottom after fermentation. Can't think of the name of it) there was a good half inch to 3/4 inch of it. In the cider there was only maybe 1/8th of an inch at the bottom at most. I wasn't sure if that's normal for cider tho since it's my first batch

 

[Randzor]

Did you addany yeast nutrient? Also what yeast? My champange yeast leaves about that much in lees. But I recently tried cider yeast and that leaves alot more. Also if you used a wine yeast, a month in the bottle is a minimum three months is ideal.

 

[ryanapfel]

I did not add nutrient. As far as iv read that is over kill (I'm sure I'm wrong) I used a wine yeast... I couldn't tell you what brand. So why does wine yeast make such a difference?

 

[phug]

What variety of yeast and what is the optimum temp range for it?


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[MikePote]

So im sure it is a total coincidence but I made this cider and it also had a super boozy bitter aftertaste. I used s-04 yeast and fermented a little high which is what I blamed it on.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm not a big fan of using champagne or wine yeast for apple cider. It tends to give a very dry, sometimes harsh, result stripped of apple flavor. No matter what yeast is used, nutrient is helpful since the apple juice lacks some of the elements found in wort.

Want to make a tasty hard caramel apple cider? Read through this thread - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/caramel-apple-hard-cider-292770/

I just made another batch of this ^^^ with 5.5 gallons of Mott's apple juice (bought at Walmart) and two pounds of table sugar, using Nottingham dry ale yeast fermented beginning at 60*F and ending at 66*F.

After a week-long cold crash at 35*F (to drop out excess yeast), racked to a keg, hit it with 2.5 tsp potassium sorbate (which suppresses yeast activity), 3 cans of frozen apple juice concentrate and a brown sugar/cinnamon syrup (made on the stovetop).

I serve this stuff "still" (not carbonated). It tastes like homemade apple pie. The previous batch took first place people's choice in the cider/mead category at a local brewfest last month and got the second highest number of votes cast for all entries (topped only by a really awesome barrel-aged porter).

 

[ryanapfel]

I dont have any info on the yeast. I went to this little brewing place near me but they were closed that day. There happend to be a guy still there and i said i just needed some wine yeast (because thats what the recipe called for) and he threw some out the door for me for free... i used it and threw away the rest. I guess that settles it tho. it was the yeast. I'm deffinatly going to try again with the Nottingham ale yeast. Is it 100% required to keep it at 60 to start? My house stays a pretty constant 72. Too warm?

 

[Randzor]

Wine yeasts are fine, you'll get a dry cider. Alot of people don't like that. Also nutrient is a must for me. Its only 30 cents a batch and helps prevent alit of problems. I wouldnt throw away the cider. Revisit it in 6 months abmnd see what you think.

 

[phug]

What I've read about Nottingham is that you want your fermentation temp in the low to mid 60 range or it can start to do weird things.


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[bernardsmith]

You are not saying that the cider has off flavors as much as the flavor is poor. That strikes me as the cause being the apple juice you used. What was the source of the apple juice? Cider (or wine) is only ever as good as the fruit that is fermented. I make hard cider all the time but I don't think that apple juice bought from the supermarket makes a good drink. I tend to go to my local orchard and use juice from their pressed apples.
The other thing is that for all intents and purposes the sugars in apple juice, the honey and the sugar you added are 100 percent fermentable. If you ferment ALL the sugar out then there is no sweetness left and if the apples were acidic then there is nothing to balance that acidity. You might want to stabilize your cider with K-meta and K-sorbate and then add enough sugar to reach a gravity of about 1.005 or 1.010 or 1015 and see if that makes your drink more acceptable. (I would do bench tests with small batches rather than dump the sugar into the stabilized cider)...

 

[ryanapfel]

Is it also possible that 3 weeks was too long to let ferment? I never took any gravity readings. I just pretty much always let my brews go three weeks. Maybe that's why I lost all my sweetness

 

[Randzor]

It will be that dry not matter what, unless you stop fermentation or backsweeten and prevent further fermentation. Read the drove top sticky to get an idea of what is needed for a sweet cider.

 

[jflongo]

I dont have any info on the yeast. I went to this little brewing place near me but they were closed that day. There happend to be a guy still there and i said i just needed some wine yeast (because thats what the recipe called for) and he threw some out the door for me for free... i used it and threw away the rest. I guess that settles it tho. it was the yeast. I'm deffinatly going to try again with the Nottingham ale yeast. Is it 100% required to keep it at 60 to start? My house stays a pretty constant 72. Too warm?

Remember if it starts at 72, it's going to ramp up due to fermentation, and could shoot up to 80 pretty easy.

 

[jflongo]

Is it also possible that 3 weeks was too long to let ferment? I never took any gravity readings. I just pretty much always let my brews go three weeks. Maybe that's why I lost all my sweetness

No 3 weeks is not too long, I let my cider go for 2 weeks minimum, up to 4 weeks sometimes. I then rack it into a carboy to clear up more, and mellow out.

 

[Apple_Jacker]

If it makes you feel any better, I had to dump 6 gallons of cider about 2 weeks ago because the rubber seal on the lid decided to stop sealing my fermentation bucket and it ended up tasting like a weird alcohol/vinegar mixture. That was very upsetting. On the bright side, I was able learn from it and I freed up my bucket for a new round of skeeter pee!

 

[ryanapfel]

I'm deffinatly going to give it another try.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm deffinatly going to try again with the Nottingham ale yeast. Is it 100% required to keep it at 60 to start? My house stays a pretty constant 72. Too warm?

You most certainly do NOT want to ferment warm with Nottingham. It throws off some pretty funky esters if you allow the temp inside the fermenter to go above 68*F while it's actively fermenting (the first 3-6 days).

You'll want to chill about 1/2 of the apple juice to fridge temp so that when you combine it all together you pitch into about 60*F liquid. Figure out some way to keep it cool (low 60's) the first 4-6 days and use plenty of nutrient.

 

[MindenMan]

I once again agree with BigFloyd, temperature control is paramount to not having acetone, funky, sour, alcohol hot, off flavored cider. The first batch of hard cider I made wasn't kept cool enough during the first three or four days, or, the whole ferment actually. I made some really wonderful, golden colored, nail polish remover scented hard cider. I didn't know about keeping it cool. Some time passed, I got a freezer I didn't need for food, bought a STC-1000, and now temperature control is not an issue.

 

[ryanapfel]

Yea I have a refrigerator for my brews but it's set in the 70 right now for what I'm brewing right now. I'll just wait and turn it down a bit

 

[MikePote]

What big Floyd said. Notty + warm temp = no good. If it is going to be on the warm side try US-05. It is very tolerant to higher temperatures.

Remember that when you set the temp on your ferment fridge that it will ferment warmer than what you set it for. 70 air temp could mean as high as 75-78 in the fermenter. Look up some threads on the sct-1000 temp controller. It will be the best $20 you have spent on home brewing.

 

[ryanapfel]

Thanks I'll look that up

 

[ryanapfel]

+1 on the stc 1000. It's hooked up and working great on my fridge. Now just need to wait for an open fermenter to try the cider again

 

[ryanapfel]

One quick question about that Nottingham yeast. I ordered it online right. And the package clearly says keep from 40-70 degrees. I guarantee that it didn't stay In that temp range during shipping. Is that going to be a problem?

 

[BigFloyd]

One quick question about that Nottingham yeast. I ordered it online right. And the package clearly says keep from 40-70 degrees. I guarantee that it didn't stay In that temp range during shipping. Is that going to be a problem?

No. Dry yeast is pretty tough stuff. It ships in the summer much better than liquid. Just store it in the fridge until needed.

 

[ryanapfel]

No. Dry yeast is pretty tough stuff. It ships in the summer much better than liquid. Just store it in the fridge until needed.

Thanks

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I'm using a mr beer fermenter. everything that touched anything got sanitized. I fermented for 3 weeks at 70 degrees in a temperature controled refrigerator.

Your fermentation temps are a problem. Yeast actually generate heat in the reproduction/fermentation process & the must temp can easily be as much as 10* higher than the ambient air temp. Most yeasts will produce some off flavours at 80*F.

Also, You didn't add any yeast nutrient, this likely stressed the yeast, stressed yeast often produce off flavours.

Your cider is still young, is it even clear yet? Let it age for at least a couple more weeks, though it may take a few months to age out off flavours & mellow a bit. Time is your friend with homebrew, time can fix a lot of things.

If you have a temp controlled fridge, turn it down to 60*-65*F. Try using an ale yeast like Nottingham & add yeast nutrient in the proper amounts.
Healthy, happy yeast, good juice & steady, proper temps make great cider.
Regards, GF.

 

[lolznrofls]

Yep..its the temp..I know alot too well..I do not have a basement so I have to invest in a chest freezer and temp controller myself...but if you have off flavors from temp the only thing that will help is time..and lots of it

 

[ryanapfel]

One more question about this cider. when i rack into the secondary, do i backsweeten right away or leave it a few more days in the secondary? when i bottle, do i cap and pasteurize right away?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

If you're just secondary for a few days, I wouldn't bother with it.
Backsweeten at bottling day.

Prime bottle bucket with your choice of syrup, juice, or concentrate. Fill, cap.
If you want still, you can pasteurize immediately. Otherwise wait a few days, or use a plastic bottle for a gauge.

 

[ryanapfel]

I don't think I want it carbonated. So pasteurize right away right?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Yessir.