I have an idea about selling yeast to local home brewers (and HBT members of course) via craigslist and word of mouth. After seeing what a quick and great fermentation I got from growing a fresh batch. I saw a possible business opportunity. I was wondering what would be your guys thoughts on this. Also if anyone here would be interested. I'm thinking of 40 to 50 mls of fresh yeast slurry for $5.
Growing yeast for homebrewers.
- Thread starter krops13
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
jppostKW
Well-Known Member
The main problems i see with this would be purity of the strains i.e. where are you harvesting from. If your using Wyeast or Whitelabs as starting points i would imagine a royalties infringment of some kind. What processes are you using to ensure that there is no risk of contaminnation. laminar flow hoods, autoclave, and glove boxes etc. how will you keep vitality for long periods of time. what kind of start up equipment will you need.
I slant my own yeast and keep about 10 strains at any given time i jsut recently aquired a pressure cooker to ensure sterilty of my media and equipment. It is a very time consuming ordeal to prepare 25 slants autoclave them and inoculate what ever new strain i aquire.
If you can get it done though with reliable results. i would say go for it it might turn out to be profitable.
I slant my own yeast and keep about 10 strains at any given time i jsut recently aquired a pressure cooker to ensure sterilty of my media and equipment. It is a very time consuming ordeal to prepare 25 slants autoclave them and inoculate what ever new strain i aquire.
If you can get it done though with reliable results. i would say go for it it might turn out to be profitable.
Rushis
Well-Known Member
$5 a strain, why wouldn't I buy a smack from Wyeast or a vial from white labs? And, unless you can quantify viability and guarantee it, a dry yeast packet (11g) will provide more viable cells than your 50 mL slurry. Fermentis US-05 always takes within 12 hours, as does Notty.
It's a hard business you'ld be trying to crack into. Your competition has experience, scientific insight, and bulk purchasing power.
samc
Well-Known Member
"growing a fresh batch" - if it is your own strain and you can promote it as such then keeping in mind what is stated above you can certainly try.
Google leads the internet browsers by a wide margin and they were far from the first to enter the business. Always room for someone new to get in the act.
Google leads the internet browsers by a wide margin and they were far from the first to enter the business. Always room for someone new to get in the act.
Seriously? They got most of their strains from breweries, so I doubt they have any claims on them.
Selling yeast slurry isnt just gonna cut it, slanting is the approach thats needed if your gonna have any marketting opportunity.
I might consider buying yeast from a local homebrewer, but it would definitly not be a simple slurry
I might consider buying yeast from a local homebrewer, but it would definitly not be a simple slurry
The reason people are willing to pay $7 for wyeast and whitelabs is guaranteed strain purity and relative certainty that there no contaminants. I wouldn't bet a 6 hour brew day on a newcomer's yeast. The other avenue you'd be competing against is free slurry from brew pubs.
I will be growing yeast from cultures that I have off of Sabouraud dextrose agar plates. All growing media I.E. simple wort will be steralized in a pressure cooker. I guaranty the same amount of purity that the major producers do 99%. I consider that late percent to be devine intervention. I plan on having a fresh set of yeast every week or 2 weeks depending on how the demand is. This will be as fresh as i will beable to get them i assume, agian with the demand driving production. With yeast that I have grown, I have seen fermentation in 30 mins to and hour after pitching. Still thinking about the amount of yeast leaning toward 70 mls now. This vial will not be a starter it will be packed yeast, like a cake or white labs vial. White lab vials are 25-30 mls of yeast, and I don't know how much is in a pack of Wyeast. The major selling points of my product would be freshness, quality, and quantity. All of which are double white labs. Wyeast I have never used so I am unable to conpair. And this will be better than dry becuase of the amount of differant strains.
Thank you for all your help everyone. If I missed something PLEASE restate it.
P.S. I work in a medical lab and practice aseptic techniques all day.
Thank you for all your help everyone. If I missed something PLEASE restate it.
P.S. I work in a medical lab and practice aseptic techniques all day.
1234
Well-Known Member
I live about 5 minutes www.rebelbrewer.com, so selling me yeast for that price would be difficult. You would have to ship it to me, cost would be about 3 bucks so now I am buying a more expensive strain of yeast.
I guess the point is that you'd be getting a pitchable quantity vs. having to make a starter. That certainly makes it more valuable. People are always saying how easy it is to make a starter but frankly, it's a PITA when everything goes right and it always takes me a half hour.
Yea I guess it would be a bit more for you 1234 up front. Like Bobby M said it would be a pitchable quantity. To get the same amount of yeast you would have to buy DME...Boil...cool...pitch...wait... Your past 8 bucks by now. For those who aren't fortunate enough to live near a brew shop. This will be a way to get quality liquid yeast of many different strains. I can also do more then just one vial. I can make big batches for brew clubs saving on shipping and the final price. Also if you were local I'd be more than happy to ship it in my honda for free
oldschool
Well-Known Member
what strains are you offering? Do you have ways of determining a ballpark cell count? i would support a newbie.
Thank you for your support. I currently have 7 strains available and working on acquiring more waiting to see if this would be of interest before I obtain more. I can give a cell count plus or minus a few billion but much closer then just a ballpark number. Which strains would you be most interested in? I have 6 ales and 1 lager strain. The ales are an American style hefe, hefe, London, English, Belgium Trappist, Irish, and for lagers a California common.
oldschool
Well-Known Member
I would probably be interested in some kind of english similar to WLP007 and/or something like WLP001
oldschool
Well-Known Member
I'm planning on brewing this weekend if all goes well. But, I'm stocked on yeast at the moment.
oldschool
Well-Known Member
What type of container will you package with?
JoeJones
Active Member
Hurdles:
If you ship any kind of distance it will have to be fast and/or refrigerated (if not you really can't give reliable numbers for cell counts upon arrival) because the yeast will die off during transport - especially in hot and freezing weather.
You really should find out if White Labs has some kind of proprietary license on their strains as I'm guessing that this is where yours originated. If they do, the least they could do is shut you down and at worst you might be paying them much more than you make.
The problem of genetic drift over time might become a problem. Each time you expand out and start new slants you have the chance of getting undesirable mutations, which you won't have the equipment to detect. This wouldn't be a problem if you are getting fresh stuff all the time (but again, the potential issue with proprietary strains).
Even with your experience in aseptic technique you are sure to get contamination at some point. I'm a food microbiologist and I'm sure you know it happens in the lab - it will definitely happen if you're running this out of your home. You will have to be able to recognize it immediately, or you will permanently lose the customers who got the one or two bad batches. You might want to invest in a microscope and a Gram stain kit to help spot it when it happens. I can tell you from experience that the colony morphology of some lactobacillus is VERY close to that of yeast, so unaided visual quality checking probably won't be sufficient.
I've seriously considered doing something like this in the future, so I've done some "thought experiments" abut the potential problems that would need to be overcome. You'll probably recognize more as you get into the process. Let us know how it goes.
If you ship any kind of distance it will have to be fast and/or refrigerated (if not you really can't give reliable numbers for cell counts upon arrival) because the yeast will die off during transport - especially in hot and freezing weather.
You really should find out if White Labs has some kind of proprietary license on their strains as I'm guessing that this is where yours originated. If they do, the least they could do is shut you down and at worst you might be paying them much more than you make.
The problem of genetic drift over time might become a problem. Each time you expand out and start new slants you have the chance of getting undesirable mutations, which you won't have the equipment to detect. This wouldn't be a problem if you are getting fresh stuff all the time (but again, the potential issue with proprietary strains).
Even with your experience in aseptic technique you are sure to get contamination at some point. I'm a food microbiologist and I'm sure you know it happens in the lab - it will definitely happen if you're running this out of your home. You will have to be able to recognize it immediately, or you will permanently lose the customers who got the one or two bad batches. You might want to invest in a microscope and a Gram stain kit to help spot it when it happens. I can tell you from experience that the colony morphology of some lactobacillus is VERY close to that of yeast, so unaided visual quality checking probably won't be sufficient.
I've seriously considered doing something like this in the future, so I've done some "thought experiments" abut the potential problems that would need to be overcome. You'll probably recognize more as you get into the process. Let us know how it goes.
I am thinking that this could be a starter service. So I'm not really selling yeast, but my services of preparing a starter. As far as shipping I am a bit reluctant, I would much rather sell locally possibly to brew clubs doing big batches were a couple gallons would be needed. If the event of shipping did arise I would put dry ice/ cold pack in a box with yeast separated by a few lairs of cloth. I think the cost of shipping would make it unrealistic. Transport would be in a 100ml or so cup of concentrated yeast slurry. That has been protected from light.
I have plans on purchasing a microscope and hemocytometer I'll add a gram stain kit to the list. I don't think I will encounter very much mutation as I am using a flask type of media and I pull a 10ul loop through the culture for propagation. When the flask becomes low (or infected) I will pull a colony off and reinoculate a new flask. So I don't foresee much mutation with such low amount of manipulation.(LOL look I rhymed) But the proof will be in the gram stain kit. If I keep a mother culture flask and inoculate a "working" flask I think I would be able to keep the mother for an extended period of time before having to reup my mother. Hmmm
Thank you everyone for you help. Please keep it coming, and please point out any dumb ideas or things that just don't make sense. I'm asking because I want to fix problems that might arise that I can't foresee. Don't worry about offending me I'd rather have brutal honesty and be a success then pleasant conversation and fail. Thank you all again. I'm off to get the propane tank filled. Making a Irish Red ale today.
I have plans on purchasing a microscope and hemocytometer I'll add a gram stain kit to the list. I don't think I will encounter very much mutation as I am using a flask type of media and I pull a 10ul loop through the culture for propagation. When the flask becomes low (or infected) I will pull a colony off and reinoculate a new flask. So I don't foresee much mutation with such low amount of manipulation.(LOL look I rhymed) But the proof will be in the gram stain kit. If I keep a mother culture flask and inoculate a "working" flask I think I would be able to keep the mother for an extended period of time before having to reup my mother. Hmmm
Thank you everyone for you help. Please keep it coming, and please point out any dumb ideas or things that just don't make sense. I'm asking because I want to fix problems that might arise that I can't foresee. Don't worry about offending me I'd rather have brutal honesty and be a success then pleasant conversation and fail. Thank you all again. I'm off to get the propane tank filled. Making a Irish Red ale today.
Rushis
Well-Known Member
There are commercial medias for propagation of fermentation yeast. UBA with cyclohexamide being one choice.
Am. J. Enol. Vitic. 38:4:273-276 (1987)
While the article is obviously aimed at the wine industry based on the journal, I believe the general methods are applicable to any fermentation strain of yeast. It should be stated that I have no first hand experience with these tests and have only given the article a cursory glance.
I concur with the posters that pointed out the possibility that White Labs or Wyeast may hold some proprietary rights to their yeast strains. It would definitely be in your best interests to check out what types of legal holds the company(ies), that you originally obtained the yeast strains from, have on their commercial distribution. If you believe that there is a significant difference in the geno-/phenotypes of your yeast strains, it may be prudent to get your strains sequenced or in some other way characterized (outside of the qualitative observations regarding fermentation characteristics). Although, I bet DNA sequencing would be cost prohibitive without a significant funding source or the available lab space/supplies to do it yourself.
*begin microbiology-beer geek talk*
Depending on how far you want to take this venture, I would be interested in a qualitative assessment of the flocculation characteristics, enough of this high, medium, medium-low, business). I have only worked with adherent cell lines so I don't how this is properly done, but it seems reasonable that this property could be determined by measuring the optical density at various stages of the cell cycle and comparing those values to sugar concentration (as a reporter for fermentation progress) and cell count/viability (via a hemocytometer and colony counting) to normalize the data.
I wonder to what degree temperature effects flocculation characteristics. Will a "high" flocculating yeast settle out of solution faster at 62F than 70F after fermenation is complete?
*end beer-geek talk*
Just some thoughts, good luck.
Am. J. Enol. Vitic. 38:4:273-276 (1987)
While the article is obviously aimed at the wine industry based on the journal, I believe the general methods are applicable to any fermentation strain of yeast. It should be stated that I have no first hand experience with these tests and have only given the article a cursory glance.
I concur with the posters that pointed out the possibility that White Labs or Wyeast may hold some proprietary rights to their yeast strains. It would definitely be in your best interests to check out what types of legal holds the company(ies), that you originally obtained the yeast strains from, have on their commercial distribution. If you believe that there is a significant difference in the geno-/phenotypes of your yeast strains, it may be prudent to get your strains sequenced or in some other way characterized (outside of the qualitative observations regarding fermentation characteristics). Although, I bet DNA sequencing would be cost prohibitive without a significant funding source or the available lab space/supplies to do it yourself.
*begin microbiology-beer geek talk*
Depending on how far you want to take this venture, I would be interested in a qualitative assessment of the flocculation characteristics, enough of this high, medium, medium-low, business). I have only worked with adherent cell lines so I don't how this is properly done, but it seems reasonable that this property could be determined by measuring the optical density at various stages of the cell cycle and comparing those values to sugar concentration (as a reporter for fermentation progress) and cell count/viability (via a hemocytometer and colony counting) to normalize the data.
I wonder to what degree temperature effects flocculation characteristics. Will a "high" flocculating yeast settle out of solution faster at 62F than 70F after fermenation is complete?
*end beer-geek talk*
Just some thoughts, good luck.
JoeJones
Active Member
You might want to consider making a bunch of slants instead of using a flask for your stock culture. You can make a starter just like you would for brew day and then steak out 20 or so slants in screw top vials. This way you will have 20 separate stocks that you only open a few times as opposed to one flask that you open often - every time you open your stock you have a chance of contaminating it. Slants also last for months in the fridge and I'm not sure how long a liquid culture in a flask will last. Finally, if your flask gets contaminated you will have to streak for isolation in order to get uncontaminated yeast back. Also, how will you know when your flask is contaminated? Using slants you will (hopefully) be able to see funky looking colonies that let you know you have a problem.
To make a starter or new stock you simply pull a colony off the slant with your loop and put it in fresh wort. Here is where the Gram stain kit helps. You can pull off a small part of a colony and look at it under the scope to make sure that it is in fact yeast. Then you can pull the remainder of the colony make the starter once you are sure that it is what you think it is - five minutes making the slide will prevent contamination of the starter that you're selling.
I'm not sure if I understood you, but the Gram stain kit will not allow you to detect mutations in the yeast, but only to tell the difference between contaminating bacteria and yeast.
As for media, I'm not sure that the average person can get it with cycloheximide included. Cycloheximide is an antibiotic and I think it is regulated. You can try acidifying the media with tartaric acid though. The acid inhibits most bacteria so that it cuts down on the possibility of contamination.
Finally, ordering a hemocytometer and a microscope along with other laboratory supplies to a private residence might draw some attention - don't mind that black car and guy with the ear piece in front of you house.
To make a starter or new stock you simply pull a colony off the slant with your loop and put it in fresh wort. Here is where the Gram stain kit helps. You can pull off a small part of a colony and look at it under the scope to make sure that it is in fact yeast. Then you can pull the remainder of the colony make the starter once you are sure that it is what you think it is - five minutes making the slide will prevent contamination of the starter that you're selling.
I'm not sure if I understood you, but the Gram stain kit will not allow you to detect mutations in the yeast, but only to tell the difference between contaminating bacteria and yeast.
As for media, I'm not sure that the average person can get it with cycloheximide included. Cycloheximide is an antibiotic and I think it is regulated. You can try acidifying the media with tartaric acid though. The acid inhibits most bacteria so that it cuts down on the possibility of contamination.
Finally, ordering a hemocytometer and a microscope along with other laboratory supplies to a private residence might draw some attention - don't mind that black car and guy with the ear piece in front of you house.
Rushis
Well-Known Member
You are right, it's probably difficult to get your hands on a 100g bottle for private use.
CH-UBA is available here. It has been available as a fungicide to the agricultural industry. Here's the product description.
I'm not sure antibiotic is most accurate classification of cycloheximide. I would generally reserve that term for something that has a therapeutic application instead of a "muck up every eukaryote" sort of activity.
Aren't semantics fun.
EDIT:
And just for kicks, here are the product specs on Universal Beer Agar, a few DIY substitutions and you could come up with a consistent home version that doesn't turn too many heads.
JoeJones
Active Member
Make sure your yeast strains are resistant before using media with a fungicide - yeast = fungus.
Rushis
Well-Known Member
That's kind of the point.
The differential media is used for isolating contaminants that can survive in a standard "beer-like" media. You streak your yeast strain on the CH-treated plates and all of the desirable yeast (Saccharomyces for ales/lagers and Brettanomyces lambics) die off leaving behind the contaminating organisms that can tolerate the wort. As I understand it CH-treated media is used as a quality control step in yeast culturing so you don't end up shipping out a bunch of contaminated yeast.
While making a resistant yeast strains is fun in the lab, I'm not sure it's a desirable trait to propagate in brewing yeast. I could be wrong through, fungicide resistant yeast might be extra tasty.
LOL super strong yeast in a hefe might give someone a yeast infection.:cross:
http://catalog.bd.com/bdCat/viewProduct.doCustomer?productNumber=353107
this is the flask I am talking about. Except for two things one it does not have a vented cap and two it is for growing yeast. Using a fungicide on a plate is a great quality control for contamination. I think a gram stain might be faster though. I think your exactly right about the temp effecting the flocculation. That's why a number can't be set to it.
Thank you all for your responses. :fro: I don't think I've used that one yet.
http://catalog.bd.com/bdCat/viewProduct.doCustomer?productNumber=353107
this is the flask I am talking about. Except for two things one it does not have a vented cap and two it is for growing yeast. Using a fungicide on a plate is a great quality control for contamination. I think a gram stain might be faster though. I think your exactly right about the temp effecting the flocculation. That's why a number can't be set to it.
Thank you all for your responses. :fro: I don't think I've used that one yet.
JoeJones
Active Member
Right. I wasn't understanding before. Just read the product specs and that makes sense.
Rushis
Well-Known Member
I completely agree, as long you culture the strain long enough to insure that an undesireable bacteria has a high enough cell count to be reliably sampled from your culture flask.
But those are experimental conditions you'll just need to work out as you go.
Where can acquire cell culture flasks for private use?
Can you order them from VWR if you have a business license?
Sampapendick
New Member
Can you comment on the conversion of OD to cell #? I'm in a similar situation, access to lab equipment, but only for personal use. I've been wanting to check my starters with optical density but am having a hard time getting a cell number conversion.
You can get 'broad' numbers, but you really need to do this yourself - grow up some yeast, dilute it to several different OD's, and do counts with a hemocytometer. Then you will have proper numbers that correlate with your spec. Because of variation between specs, its the only way to be accurate.
You need to freeze your original cultures in glycerol stocks and store them in the -80C. You will get changes over time in the flask, even without manipulation. According to Verstrepen et al, "Flocculation: What Brewer's Should Know" (Appl Microbiol Biotechnol (2003) 61:197–205): "Storage at lower temperatures (4C or 10C) resulted in a reduced flocculation, independently of yeast agitation and starvation."
The FLO (flocculation) genes are are near the telomeres, and as such are very unstable and show high mutation rates (due to silencing effects and recombination rates). If you freeze, you can always go back to the original - unfrozen, not so much.
There are commercial medias for propagation of fermentation yeast. UBA with cyclohexamide being one choice.
Am. J. Enol. Vitic. 38:4:273-276 (1987)
While the article is obviously aimed at the wine industry based on the journal, I believe the general methods are applicable to any fermentation strain of yeast. It should be stated that I have no first hand experience with these tests and have only given the article a cursory glance.
I concur with the posters that pointed out the possibility that White Labs or Wyeast may hold some proprietary rights to their yeast strains. It would definitely be in your best interests to check out what types of legal holds the company(ies), that you originally obtained the yeast strains from, have on their commercial distribution. If you believe that there is a significant difference in the geno-/phenotypes of your yeast strains, it may be prudent to get your strains sequenced or in some other way characterized (outside of the qualitative observations regarding fermentation characteristics). Although, I bet DNA sequencing would be cost prohibitive without a significant funding source or the available lab space/supplies to do it yourself.
*begin microbiology-beer geek talk*
Depending on how far you want to take this venture, I would be interested in a qualitative assessment of the flocculation characteristics, enough of this high, medium, medium-low, business). I have only worked with adherent cell lines so I don't how this is properly done, but it seems reasonable that this property could be determined by measuring the optical density at various stages of the cell cycle and comparing those values to sugar concentration (as a reporter for fermentation progress) and cell count/viability (via a hemocytometer and colony counting) to normalize the data.
I wonder to what degree temperature effects flocculation characteristics. Will a "high" flocculating yeast settle out of solution faster at 62F than 70F after fermenation is complete?
*end beer-geek talk*
Just some thoughts, good luck.
Flocculation assay: "Cells were harvested and washed twice in deflocculation buffer [20 mM citrate (pH 3.0), 5 mM EDTA]. After washing, cells were suspended in deflocculation buffer to an optical density (absorbance
at 600 nm; A600) of 2. An aliquot of 800 ll of this cell suspension was pipetted into a 1-ml cuvette, and 200 ll of 100 mM calcium chloride was added to initiate flocculation. The cuvette was vigorously shaken and the absorbance (A600) was measured immediately and at 30-s intervals for 5 min using a spectrophotometer." (J.C. Bayly et al. / FEMS Yeast Research 5 (2005) 11511156)
Cyclohexamide: I've worked with this, its very bad ****. It isn't just a fungal poison: its a eukaryotic (ie you and me too) poison. Wikipedia entry: "significant toxic side effects, including DNA damage, teratogenesis, and other reproductive effects (including birth defects and toxicity to sperm)." Make frozen stocks, go back to them regularly, and use sterile technique, and you won't have to poison yourself figuring out what the hell is contaminating your yeast.
Oh come on. Cyclohexamide isn't that bad. That's the same stuff they say about all the other wussy lab chemicals like acrylamide, ethidium bromide, etc.
LD50 is 2mg/kg for a rat. Assuming scale-up (not a great assumption, mind you), and a 70 kg human, that's what, 140 mg? I wouldn't want someone noodling around with that at home. And I don't know about you, but I'm pretty cavalier about gloves, but I use them for EtBr, acyrlamide (unpolymerized), sodium azide, cyclohexamide, and MMS. Everything else is negotiable.
Aaaand, I just realized this is a zombie thread, dammit. Sorry, folks.
Aaaand, I just realized this is a zombie thread, dammit. Sorry, folks.
