Grey NEIPA

[philippehb]

Hi all.

Check this out:

Brewed a NEIPA and poured a side by side trillium "a street." It took a few attempts but this is almost identical in aroma, flavor, and mouthfeel. I'm super happy with it but here is one exception: appearance.

Mine is in the smaller glass with the "A" on it.

Notice held against the light how light it is. The trillium is a bit more orange. It does have a bit of crystal per their website which mine does not.

Then, when setting them down. Mine looks an unnappealing grey.

The first thought is oxidation, but it is not noticeable one bit in aroma or flavor. It tastes so wonderful and so similar I am just confused.

Any ideas? Tips for next batch?

(Apologies for sideways pics I tried rotating them before uploading. Nothing worked)

 

[philippehb]

Narrow vs wide glass only mine. Looks ok today. Maybe a lighting thing. Don't have anymore trillium for side by side. Idk. Still very odd. Looking for tips.

 

[thehaze]

It of course depends on how thick, large, fat the glass you are pouring into and the lightning, but if you want a bit of orangey/reddish tint to the beer, you need something more than simple base malt. You could try adding some Munich Light ( I ), some CaraPils or CaraBelge ( Crystal 10-15L ).

But your beer is by no means unnappealing! I actually started doing my light coloured beers in the 3-5 SRM range, as I developed an obsession for light coloured, hazy, bright yellow beers and I feel they look more beautiful than orange or reddish/pale.

So if not oxidated, I would not worry.

Next time, simply add a bit of crystal to raise the color like 1-2 SRM, if you feel THAT is the way your beer needs to look like. I know the feeling, I also have it when brewing specific beers and have an idea on how it should smell, taste and look in the glass.

Cheers!

 

[philippehb]

Look at it next to "Alpha Bits" now it looks very dark.

I am dumbfounded!

 

[thehaze]

If you want to make a very bright yellow beer, you need only to use Pilsner, Flaked something and that's about it. It will be hazy, at least that's how I like them.

If you use Pale ( ale ) malt and something like Flaked, wheat, Munich whatever, it will be a bit darker, but still straw coloured.

There are discernables differences between pale and pilsner amlt, expecially in lighter beers.

If you want yourt beer to bear that yellow, bright tint to it, you need a crystal malt, such as CaraBelge and Golden Naked Oats, which I used and they do a terrific job. It also helps when your grainbill is a bit smaller, like in the session/pale/low ABV IPAs range.

PS: I used Munich I ( light ) in some IPAs, and it tastes good, but it adds a bit more colour than online calculators show. At least, that is how I have experienced it in the last 10 batches.

I since dropped it and only use Pilsner, Flaked Wheat and oats and a bit of CaraPils. ( sugar or dextrose if I need to bump the ABV ).

 

[h22lude]

If it tastes and smells good then it may not be oxidation. What is your boil off? A high powered boil will cause wort to darken.

 

[philippehb]

Thanks the haze. My grain bill was:

9lbs briess pale 2row
2lbs Maris otter
1.5lbs flaked wheat
1.5lbs flaked oats
0.75lbs carapils

2oz hops at 15mins, 4oz whirlpool, 3oz dry hop 3 days into primary and 3oz dry hop in secondary 5days.
Wyeast 1318.

I just feel it should look much lighter. But in a narrow glass it does...

 

[philippehb]

.

 

[philippehb]

My boil was 7.5 gallons down to 6 gallons after 90mins. Ending was 1.065. I usually boil 7 down to 5.5 but with the hops I wanted to be able to leave more behind going into carboy.

 

[Smellyglove]

I've seen the same thing elsewhere. Some believe that it might be the oats which are more susceptible to oxidation, or at least cause this color. And like someone mentioned. Pilsner malt wouldn't be a bad call to use as base malt and 60 minutes boil low boil.

 

[philippehb]

Thanks smellyglove. Do you have any links I could read about this oat color?

 

[Smellyglove]

Thanks smellyglove. Do you have any links I could read about this oat color?

Sorry, but not really. It's just something I've picked up from another forum. People have experienced the same. I think some "research" has been done, but I can't give any sources unfortunately.

 

[Oldskewl]

May want to consider doing a 60 minute boil. The 90 minute boil may be darkening your wort. No need for a 90 minute boil. You will need to use less water for strike.

 

[philippehb]

I have made pale straw pilsners, blondes, helles, etc with a 90min boil. I feel this is something else, related to the NEIPA style. Perhaps the polyphenols or the flaked oats/wheat the only 2 new variables for me.

 

[PsychoBiter]

I am no expert, but here is what I have found that helps...

I think there a few culprits for the darkening. Ingredients and oxygen are the main ones. You aren't getting enough oxygen to oxygenate the beer to hurt taste, but enough to cause the hops matter to discolor the beer.
We found that reducing any oxygen contact after we pitch yeast seems to improve the color. We only do a single hop addition on day 3 with all the dry hops. Your second hop addition may be too late in fermentation to allow the yeast to clean up all the oxygen introduced during the process. We even suspend the first hop addition in the fermenter on brew day and lower it down on day 3 via dental floss. Probably over kill, but easy to do with our set up.
We purge all transfer lines with CO2 and do a closed transfer to keg as well. No bottling.

I don't think there is 1 culprit, but a few add up to cause the dark color to some degree.
Oxygen, ingredients, boil length/intensity....who knows what else...

Ours are getting better, but still think we can improve on color. Taste is fantastic even on darker batches. Ours aren't that orange color, but a hazy yellow.

 

[philippehb]

Awesome Psychobiter. Do you also have flaked oats and wheat? Can you share a pic? Over the top with the dental floss! Love it. Thank you.

 

[PsychoBiter]

Awesome Psychobiter. Do you also have flaked oats and wheat? Can you share a pic? Over the top with the dental floss! Love it. Thank you.

Yes, I use flaked oats and flaked wheat. No pics though...we drank it all.

 

[suprchunk]

the hops matter to discolor the beer.

I've noticed gray color in a few of my beers that were heavily hopped. I think, in my case, too much trub was carried over as the longer they sat in the cooler, the clearer they became. I've also noticed a majority of homebrewed NEIPAs that people post pictures of also have a gray tint to them. As well as some "chunky" commercial versions I've poured...

 

[philippehb]

Check this out: http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Seems pretty thorough in explaining oats are good not bad. Must just be the polyphenols that brown.

 

[PsychoBiter]

http://brulosophy.com/2017/10/30/flaked-oats-vs-wheat-malt-in-a-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

The beer with wheat looks darker to me initially.

the test with oats in the open glass (oxidation) is pretty dramatic, wish he had done the same with wheat sample, or left the lids off the PET bottles.

 

[day_trippr]

I was surprised that the author felt there wasn't much difference between the first and last pics in the 5 day sequence.

This is just those first and last pics. To me the "oatie" beer is clearly darkening already, and my image editor agrees.



The shots of the open cup of beer darkening would be so much more interesting if both batches had been represented...

Cheers!

 

[h22lude]

The oat beer actually looks like it got lighter to me but I think that's because it doesn't look as hazy. My eyes are just playing tricks on me.
The wheat beer definitely looks darker.

 

[thehaze]

If you look closely, there is also a bit more light behind the bottles in the second pictures. But I do agree the wheat one got a tad darker, but not by much.

 

[h22lude]

If you look closely, there is also a bit more light behind the bottles in the second pictures. But I do agree the wheat one got a tad darker, but not by much.

Yeah that is what is screwing me up. I knew the lighting was odd just couldn't figure out why. Not a very good test with different background lighting.

 

[philippehb]

Wow! ok, after all this I'm thinking:

1.060-1.070 OG
30-50 IBU

70% 2 Row
25% Flaked oats
5% Carapils

2oz @ 15mins for bittering and whatever flavor/aroma possible
4oz @ whirpool 30 mins 170-150F
8oz dry hop day 3 primary (Semi-active fermentation).
Keg Day 10, No secondary, no cold crash, and extensive keg purging at racking.

Brewing this Sunday, so, should have result mid-Nov.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Just my 2 cents, i think you should reconsider on the no cold crash. The cold crash will help get some of the hop debris out that causes a bit of a burn upon swallowing.

I just recently did a NEIPA that came out phenomenal (Brau's recipe, substituted Vic Secret hops for the Galaxy). I did gelatin and cold crash on mine and i think it had a positive effect. Pics below.

I also think you're a tad late on your dry hop but that's just simply from what Ive read on the style, not from experience. The general consensus is do it at high krausen, but nothing wrong with experimenting.

View attachment 1509503981099.jpg

View attachment 1509503990179.jpg

 

[Rob2010SS]

Also if you can rig up a closed transfer from carboy to keg i think would help with preserving this style as well

 

[philippehb]

You crash in primary?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yes, crash in primary. Swap out airlock for one of the "S" airlocks, start to crash for 12 hours, added gelatin, and continued to crash for another 12-24 hours at 38*F

 

[philippehb]

Pretty sure s airlock still sucks back air with vacuum from cold crash. Just doesnt suck star san or whatever u put in the lock like the 3piece. If you are trying to avoid "hop debris" that stuff will crash in keg anyway.

I'll stick to all primary and no cold crash and see what happens. If I get the nice light colored aromatic thing I am looking for I'll tweak from there for whatever adverse things a primary only may have contributed.

 

[thehaze]

Pretty sure s airlock still sucks back air with vacuum from cold crash. Just doesnt suck star san or whatever u put in the lock like the 3piece. If you are trying to avoid "hop debris" that stuff will crash in keg anyway.

I'll stick to all primary and no cold crash and see what happens. If I get the nice light colored aromatic thing I am looking for I'll tweak from there for whatever adverse things a primary only may have contributed.

Does the air still go through the StarSan when using the Speidel airlock: https://www.homebrewing.org/Speidel-Replacement-Airlock_p_5216.html

'cause the StarSan does not get sucked in.

 

[Rob2010SS]

It may suck a SLIGHT amount of air but you can see throughout the cold crash that the fluid in the air lock slowly moves over to one bubble instead of filling both bubbles, so I think it's minimal if at all. Could be wrong, but that beer had an intense aroma coming from it so I feel like my process worked fairly well.

Let us know how yours comes out. Good luck.

 

[philippehb]

I am also basing a good chunk on: https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html

a good read as well.

I won't be keg hopping this time, but I did get some cryo hops just to see (wanted to see if they were pelletized and would sink well like current pellets, and they look about the same, pic attached). I dry hopped my 1/2 full existing NEIPA with 1oz of it in a stainless ball, and it was nice, it sort of refreshed the beer in a way. May use that tactic in the future if a beer needs a little oomph for the second half and/or its been on tap a while.

Might also plan to keg hop as madfermentationist did, but not this time around, enough new variables already.

All in all, between Brulo and MadF, we see some massive hopping in primary and no secondary or cold crash with seemingly pretty great results. Gonna give that a shot.

I have always secondary and cold crashed by the way. But this won't be the first thing this style has gotten me to veer from as far as my usual tendencies.

 

[DarthBrewer1]

Control the boil. slow and easy as to not darken the wort.

 

[philippehb]

Also, I didn't share this one yet but, part of the reason I want to avoid secondary and/or cold crash for now:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/09/11/th...ation-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

unfortunately in the experiment he does 2 things vs the control. brews them the same until 1 cold crashed under c02 pressure and closed transfer.

Perhaps, to your point Rob2010SS, it is the transfer that is the most important, not the cold crashing as it relates to oxygen avoidance.

Then, that takes me to the madF link I posted before, If you go down into the comments, I asked him to explain his kegging method and (after only primary) he just kegs normally,with a lot of purging.

in summary, gonna have to do a little testing of my own.

 

[h22lude]

If you want to cold crash without the worry of air suck back, check out NorCal's co2 harvest kit. The vacuum will suck back co2 from fermentation captured in a mason jar.

 

[PsychoBiter]

I cold crash in our Speidel primary, to avoid air suck back, I take off airlock and pull a sanitized balloon over the threaded outlet, then bubble CO2 up through the bottom spigot to fill up the balloon. I flush the line with CO2 before I hook it up to the spigot.
We close transfer to kegs. This is the only style we take so many precautions with to avoid oxygen.

 

[philippehb]

PsychoBiter, you mentioned dry hopping on day 3. I imagine activity has begun to slow at this point but krausen is still high. Have you tested Day 2 vs day 3? Thanks,

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I brew mostly NEIPAs. I cold crash in the primary with a standard airlock filled with vodka. It never seems like any gets sucked in (based on what's left in the airlock at the end).

I initiate transfer to the keg with CO2 pressure, but then just disconnect the CO2 hose and let it siphon naturally. The keg is pre-purged with CO2 and then I pressurize/dump about 5 times to post transfer purge. I bottled from the keg and sent a bottle to a friend on the east coast. It was over a month old by the time he got it and drank it. He specifically commented on the great color and absence of oxidation.

I don't worry about HSA at all, take the easy precautions post ferm and have had zero issues.

Also, I'm now dry hopping less than 24 hours after pitch. The latest batch (this weekend) I was already getting no perceptible bubbling in my blowoff container at 22 hours, so I tossed the hops in. The last one, I brewed Saturday, cold crashed on Thursday and kegged Saturday (1 week after brew day). I was grain to glass in 10 days and it was outstanding. Easily the juiciest beer I've brewed and the big difference was the shortened schedule.

 

[PsychoBiter]

PsychoBiter, you mentioned dry hopping on day 3. I imagine activity has begun to slow at this point but krausen is still high. Have you tested Day 2 vs day 3? Thanks,

I haven't tried day 2 vs 3, but probably will next time we brew it. My past few (non NEIPA) brews have seemed to ferment rather quickly. I'm not sure it will make a difference. As long as there is still active fermentation I think you are good.