"Green" is Ugly!

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SharonaZamboni

SharonaZamboni

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Windmills. Well, wind turbines. The local news tonight had a story about how residents of a rural area are unhappy about the 19-turbine wind farm being built in their town. They feel the farm spoils their view of the landscape.

Solar roof panels. The HOA I'm with in Phoenix bans them. They are too ugly.

I don't get it. Highways are ugly. Most of the old factories I see here in MA are ugly. Utility poles and lines (all over MA) are ugly. Oil drills and strip mining are ugly.

WTH? Most of what we do to obtain the energy we use, and the ways we use that energy are ugly.

So people use "ugly" as their primary reason to dislike practical, but different ways of harvesting energy.
Well, the anti-turbine people are afraid that bats will confuse turbines for trees or avoid the area completely, since they are looking for the tallest trees. I suppose the bats also avoid the acres of corn and hayfields, too.
Solar roof panels are too ugly in the desert. But a zillion tons of stucco and concrete look great. Must. fight. the. sun!

/end rant/
 
No energy is "green" in my opinion. The sooner we accept that the sooner we can move on to serious energy policy discussions.
 
The only energy solution is population reduction.

Finally a use for our nukes, reduce the human population to 500,000,000.
 
AZ_IPA said:
No energy is "green" in my opinion. The sooner we accept that the sooner we can move on to serious energy policy discussions.
Click to expand...

That's slightly disingenuous. Nobody serious is claiming there are perfect solutions, and anybody that matters knows damn well that there is no such thing as a zero-impact energy source.

"Green" is a relative term. It may be overused, it may sometimes be misapplied or misused in a manner that oversimplifies the issue, and there may even be other terms that seem less retarded, but none of that makes it any less valid or any less useful. Those who pretend otherwise are only trying to obfuscate the issues and sabotage the discourse.

If you don't like the term, just imagine there's an "er" at the end. If you were being honest and not just playing the same destructive word games, "greener" should be more than acceptable. Insisting that that's not what people actually mean is a big fat strawman, as nobody but the least educated, least important, and least influential of hippies actually thinks that a perfect energy solution exists.
 
I don't understand why more people don't see it as a national security issue as well and not just an environmental issue. We get out of Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east, we would be a lot safer.
 
I generally see these attempts at reducing our fossil fuels as a beautiful thing. It's not a complete replacement for every need. I don't think anyone with half a brain would claim it is, but it could help. We also need to find ways to make a household operate on just the power made by these kinds of energy sources.

Oh, hang on. My heater is on too high. I gotta turn up the AC to compensate...

BRB
 
There are greener options out there, ones that actually work. The biggest hurtle in them is not implementing them but getting the public to be willing to use them.
 
I heard an interesting fact: we could power the entire US electrical grid with 93 square miles of solar panels. Think about the sheer number of roofs we have available to us and how easy this would be to achieve. I'd throw panels up on my roof for for a nice little tax break. Heck, if somebody would come to maintain them, I'd have no problem doing it for free.
 
riverfrontbrewer said:
You can already put them on your roof and get a tax break. Why haven't you done it yet?!
Click to expand...

I don't have the cash to get started...
Every now and then I search the web for a module system that I could slowly add panels to as I can afford them.
 
solar_shingles.jpg


Solar panel shingles have come a LONG way since,

solar-energy-panels-home.jpg


Of course, the shingles don't exactly serve as a water heating source.
 
The 19 wind turbines I mentioned are expected to provide enough power for 6,000 homes, which are located within two towns. One town's population is 93, the other is 752. The project created 100 temporary jobs and 3-5 permanent jobs. Rather than paying taxes, the company has pledged annual payments of $257,000.
 
cfonnes said:
The only energy solution is population reduction.

Finally a use for our nukes, reduce the human population to 500,000,000.
Click to expand...

You first. Haha.


Re: Wind turbines
I've seen a few articles saying they may not be as green as we think. Some of the concerns were killing birds in the turbines, changing the airflow/turbulence in the region (i.e., hotter), and heat generated by the turbines. I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but interesting to think through the full implications of alternative energy.

Me, I'm pulling for cold fusion. Looks pretty simple as explained here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120053/
 
SharonaZamboni said:
I don't get it. Highways are ugly. Most of the old factories I see here in MA are ugly. Utility poles and lines (all over MA) are ugly. Oil drills and strip mining are ugly.

WTH? Most of what we do to obtain the energy we use, and the ways we use that energy are ugly.

So people use "ugly" as their primary reason to dislike practical, but different ways of harvesting energy.
Well, the anti-turbine people are afraid that bats will confuse turbines for trees or avoid the area completely, since they are looking for the tallest trees. I suppose the bats also avoid the acres of corn and hayfields, too.
Solar roof panels are too ugly in the desert. But a zillion tons of stucco and concrete look great. Must. fight. the. sun!
Click to expand...
Excellent points on the hypocrisy of "ugly". I've never seen a pretty plume of hydrocarbon exhaust or coal-fired power plant. Hell, I've been in a couple and aesthetics never came to mind as having been considered during their design.
Homercidal said:
I generally see these attempts at reducing our fossil fuels as a beautiful thing. It's not a complete replacement for every need. I don't think anyone with half a brain would claim it is, but it could help. We also need to find ways to make a household operate on just the power made by these kinds of energy sources.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I have pondered, given the past 12-24 months of crazy weather pattern changes against normal/record patterns, how climate change might affect our placement of green energy sources. Will high-wind areas be such in 25 years? Will high solar-energy density areas be the same in 25 years?

Homercidal said:
Oh, hang on. My heater is on too high. I gotta turn up the AC to compensate...

BRB
Click to expand...
LOL!

TyTanium said:
You first. Haha.
Click to expand...
umm, yeah... where is the BACK of that line?

SharonaZamboni said:
They feel the farm spoils their view of the landscape.
Click to expand...
ironically, all the flat-ass farmland landscape around here looks better with something taller than a rock-pile next to a field or a HWY overpass.

They are still evaluating a wind farm on the Southern part of Lake Michigan, although I believe the State of Michigan has already received a permit for their version of the same. Seems a no-brainer given the lack of salinity compared to oceanic off-shore wind farms, the fact that the Southern part of the lake is very shallow and the close proximity to a huge energy demanding metropolitan area.
 
Not to mention that all of the "solutions" to oil dependency require oil to implement. Solar panels are made of polycarbonate (oil) in factories using oil to lubricate machinery and create the molds, paints, housings, etc. Shipped by truck installed using plastic bushings and wires made of metal mined by big turcks running on oil, the wires are coated in plastic by people wearing safety gear made of plastic.

Turbines are made of carbon fiber (oil) lubricated by oil, painted with poly based paint and require miles and miles of wire mined etc. etc. Oil is such a part of our life I'm afraid "green" is only a delay to the inevitable oil crash.
 
mbauer013 said:
Not to mention that all of the "solutions" to oil dependency require oil to implement. Solar panels are made of polycarbonate (oil) in factories using oil to lubricate machinery and create the molds, paints, housings, etc. Shipped by truck installed using plastic bushings and wires made of metal mined by big turcks running on oil, the wires are coated in plastic by people wearing safety gear made of plastic.

Turbines are made of carbon fiber (oil) lubricated by oil, painted with poly based paint and require miles and miles of wire mined etc. etc. Oil is such a part of our life I'm afraid "green" is only a delay to the inevitable oil crash.
Click to expand...

Yes, but isn't the point to buy ourselves time for technology advancement and to continue to develop alternatives? Like you said, making the current hydrocarbon-based fuels last as long as possible by 1) reducing our dependency and 2) getting more energy efficiency out of them is not a final solution on its own.
 
mbauer013 said:
Not to mention that all of the "solutions" to oil dependency require oil to implement. Solar panels are made of polycarbonate (oil) in factories using oil to lubricate machinery and create the molds, paints, housings, etc. Shipped by truck installed using plastic bushings and wires made of metal mined by big turcks running on oil, the wires are coated in plastic by people wearing safety gear made of plastic.

Turbines are made of carbon fiber (oil) lubricated by oil, painted with poly based paint and require miles and miles of wire mined etc. etc. Oil is such a part of our life I'm afraid "green" is only a delay to the inevitable oil crash.
Click to expand...

The concept has never been to eliminate the dependancy (although crude based lubricrants are not the only game in town) but to, as much as humanly possible, relegate it's usefulness to industry alone so that the crash may be somewhat tempered rather than catastrophic.
 
Randar said:
ironically, all the flat-ass farmland landscape around here looks better with something taller than a rock-pile next to a field or a HWY overpass.
Click to expand...

I think the turbines look pretty cool. I find it soothing to watch them slowly turning.

Wind farm is projected to look like this:

Attorney_James_Martin_Hoosac_Wind_Farm.jpg
 
SharonaZamboni said:
I think the turbines look pretty cool. I find it soothing to watch them slowly turning.

Wind farm is projected to look like this:
Click to expand...

Driving I-65 in Indiana and there is an area that is wind farms as far as the eye can see. It's a bit Orwellian to watch the red warning lights atop every one of them blink in unison in every direction.
 
They do look nice from a distance...

I'm not sure about the bird killing problem. We drive LOTS of cars that kill LOTS of birds every day. Nobody is proposing we stop driving cars to save the birds (and MANY Mammals at the same time...)

Just realized I think the wind generators in that picture are trying to spell out YMCA.
 
Homercidal said:
They do look nice from a distance...

I'm not sure about the bird killing problem. We drive LOTS of cars that kill LOTS of birds every day. Nobody is proposing we stop driving cars to save the birds (and MANY Mammals at the same time...)

Just realized I think the wind generators in that picture are trying to spell out YMCA.
Click to expand...

It's the rare birds that are being killed by turbines. Not too many golden eagles being hit by cars, but lots getting whacked by turbines. Rare bats, too. Though there's some promising research that adjusting turbine speed can drastically reduce bat impacts without affecting energy production.

I think everything should be on the table for energy, but with an open, honest discussion on actual impacts, and avoidance on using ambiguous terms like "green" that are extremely misleading.
 
Randar said:
Driving I-65 in Indiana and there is an area that is wind farms as far as the eye can see. It's a bit Orwellian to watch the red warning lights atop every one of them blink in unison in every direction.
Click to expand...

I googled some videos, and most of the comments are "awesome", "relaxing", "beautiful". The night videos give an idea of the sight, but I bet it's much more dramatic in real life.
 
And just think, in 30 years (when the generators have become too obsolete to refurbish) the motor cans can be repurposed into japanese luxury high rise studio apartments. After all, they are connected to the grid.
 
Solar probably wouldn't exist without government subsidies. The energy and resources required to build and install them are not offset by power they produce over their lifespan. The energy grid is a far more efficient in comparison.
 
As much as I don't mind the wind turbines shown, I have seen some homeowners who have been severely impacted by them. At certain times of the day, the shadow of the blades crosses their property and creates a slow strobe effect that is very unsettling to the human body. After seeing it, I don't think I'd want to experience it myself.
 
My biggest issue with wind power is that they need to build additional natural gas electrical generating stations as backups since no Utility can provide consistent electricity to the market solely through the wind farms.

So, in order to be "green" they not only destroy the land and wildlife with wind farms, but then build additional fossil fuel generating stations often requiring new gas wells. :drunk:
 
SharonaZamboni said:
I googled some videos, and most of the comments are "awesome", "relaxing", "beautiful". The night videos give an idea of the sight, but I bet it's much more dramatic in real life.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't use any of those words to describe them. More like distracting and annoying.
 
Wind definitely has some serious issues. The bird/bat issue is real. Both animals while migrating at night follow the light at the top of the wind turbine and circle it till they fall out of the sky dead( this is true of any high object with a light on it). Living where I do a study showed that 1-4% of turbines will be taken out per category of hurricane. Not exactly good odds for something that you want to last for long periods of time.
I think wind works better in small scale. So say a vertical turbine on the roof of every house helping to reduce the amount of energy the house needs.
 
Homercidal said:
Just realized I think the wind generators in that picture are trying to spell out YMCA.
Click to expand...

They would have YMCA perfectly spelled out, but all of the rare birds that the blades are slicing up really noticeably slow down the rotation, throwing them out of sync.

pretty cool!:mug:
 
AZ_IPA said:
My biggest issue with wind power is that they need to build additional natural gas electrical generating stations as backups since no Utility can provide consistent electricity to the market solely through the wind farms.

So, in order to be "green" they not only destroy the land and wildlife with wind farms, but then build additional fossil fuel generating stations often requiring new gas wells. :drunk:
Click to expand...

The windmills are allowing the current generation capacity to maintain without building large new plants in our area. They are still available for backup during peak demand, but they will run at lower capacity when the windfarm is able to generate the demand.
Essentially the existing plants are used for evening out the peak needs rather than the "backbone" of the generation.
There is a 134 tower turbine farm nearby, and there are days when the wind is blowing that they have them shut off since the demand isn't there.
http://www.xcelenergy.com/Environment/Renewable_Energy/Wind/Nobles_Wind_Farm
 
There is also this chart out there. I agree, I don't have any bald eagles flying into my large door going to my deck, but at least once a week I hear a clunk and a bird is getting his bearings lying there.


Man-made structure/technology

Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)

Feral and domestic cats

Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]

Power lines

130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA]

Windows (residential and commercial)

100 million -- 1 billion [source: TreeHugger]

Pesticides

70 million [source: AWEA]

Automobiles

60 million -- 80 million [source: AWEA]

Lighted communication towers

40 million -- 50 million [source: AWEA]

Wind turbines

10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC]
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
The concept has never been to eliminate the dependancy (although crude based lubricrants are not the only game in town) but to, as much as humanly possible, relegate it's usefulness to industry alone so that the crash may be somewhat tempered rather than catastrophic.
Click to expand...

No matter what the crash will be catastrophic, everything we buy or use on a daily basis depends upon oil in some form, chasing the technology genie in this case is almost useless, the only real answer is to start to live and interact locally, local jobs and food to start, build up the local economy to beable to support itself and then you will be able to make a go of it. Transitions.org has some good ideas, and this comes from me who is probably the most anti-hippie you'll ever meet.

At some point the energy glut we have now will decrease, The non oil based world of the 1800's saw steady global populations in the 1 billion range and this is where we will go again when oil is no longer there at a reasonable price. Its a fun ride but some time it will be over.
 
mbauer013 said:
No matter what the crash will be catastrophic, everything we buy or use on a daily basis depends upon oil in some form, chasing the technology genie in this case is almost useless, the only real answer is to start to live and interact locally, local jobs and food to start, build up the local economy to beable to support itself and then you will be able to make a go of it. Transitions.org has some good ideas, and this comes from me who is probably the most anti-hippie you'll ever meet.

At some point the energy glut we have now will decrease, The non oil based world of the 1800's saw steady global populations in the 1 billion range and this is where we will go again when oil is no longer there at a reasonable price. Its a fun ride but some time it will be over.
Click to expand...

To say catastrophic, I think, is a stretch. There are plant based alternatives to crude for lubricants, and fuels so industry will not come to a halt because their machines sieze up. Are these alternatives economically preferred? No, but they exist.

Plastics are about the only thing that would die off without crude. And, frankly, this world will still spin without them.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
To say catastrophic, I think, is a stretch. There are plant based alternatives to crude for lubricants, and fuels so industry will not come to a halt because their machines sieze up. Are these alternatives economically preferred? No, but they exist.
Click to expand...

But you've never dry-hopped, so how would you know? :mug:
 

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