Great HOP pricing going on!

[The Pol]

Riiiight.... thanks DM for answering that. Yah, 20C is pretty darn hot and not vaccuum sealed either? You are right, if you choose the worst storage conditions possible, there is a lot of AA loss. I calculate about 10% loss over 12 months if they are stored properly.

Id like to hear from HD on this, but I presume that they measure when they are packaged, and then sell them at that AA like every other HBS does until the hops are gone, even if it takes a year to do so.

 

[alpha_acid]

I just 4lb of '09 whole hops. Each bag weighed 19-20oz including bag. Shipped via UPS for about $9

 

[the_Roqk]

Update

Still no word yet.

If anyone else would like to email Puterbaugh Farms about the AA's issue please do. If more get involved then maybe someone will atleast get a response. Beware they are still busy. Cheers!

 

[jbambuti]

I just received 1 lb. of Centennial pellets and 1 lb. of Magnum from HD. Both weighed in a shade over 18 oz. I'm looking forward to brewing a nice IPA with them this weekend. Now if my LHBS got us-05 back in stock, I'll be pleased.

 

[FrFtr28]

Just an update with my order. I placed an order back on 9/15 and received it yesterday in Northwest PA. Each pound was a couple ounces over and the bags were perfectly sealed.

 

[Benny Blanco]

I say we all spam them with emails until we get to the bottom of this AA% issue :rockin:

 

[HoppyDaze]

I say we all spam them with emails until we get to the bottom of this AA% issue :rockin:

yeah...its the least we can do for them giving us hops at a great price!!!:rockin:

 

[dontman]

funny, could of sworn we got to the bottom of the "AA Issue" a few pages back. This really is not some great mystery that requires a PI to solve.

Industry practice is well known and documented and explained over and over on this thread among other places.

 

[Benny Blanco]

Well, I'm not dying to know and it's not holding up any brew days. I was just curious as to whether or not they periodically check AA% and adjust their hops for sale accordingly. Even if it's a small change in percentage.

 

[dontman]

They are harvested, dried, then packaged and tested for AA at time of packaging. This figure goes on the package and it is the job of the consumer to adjust based on storage conditions and age.

They are not ever reopened and retested and relabeled as this would make knowledge worse, not better. Confusion would reign as the consumer wondered whether the label was from time of harvest or time of retesting or whether it was retested, did the package come from just after retesting or just before. The retesting and relabeling would be money very poorly spent that would ultimately need to be passed on to the customer. And the retesting is completely unnecessary as it is quite simple to adjust AA for age at use. I know BS has this tool and I assume other software does as well.

As it is now we know that the testing occurred close to packaging and that the packaging occurred close to harvest. We need no other info in this scenario. FYI I use 5% loss every six months for 30 degree pellet vacuum packs. this puts a 6% AA label at 5.89 after 12 months. I use 10% for nitrogen pack leaf at 30 degrees. This puts 6% AA at 5.78 at 12 months.

All bets are off for HBS bought hops since you can't be sure of storage conditions and even age.

 

[elmetal]

that sounds a bit ridiculous to me (only 5% drop in 12 months at 30 degrees)

especially compared to some calculators out there.

I don't know.

 

[The Pol]

that sounds a bit ridiculous to me (only 5% drop in 12 months at 30 degrees)

especially compared to some calculators out there.

I don't know.

ProMash calcualtes about 10% loss in AA if frozen (20F) and vacuum sealed.

I call that reasonable

 

[flyangler18]

To clarify, according to Hops Direct:

They test twice. The first time is done w/in days of harvest by the Washington State Department of Agriculture as mandated by that agency, and then any hops that are pelletized (which usually takes place in October) are tested again just prior to packaging.

As far as degradation goes, 10% in 12 months has been verified by a member of my homebrew club who works with alpha acids in a professional capacity. Remember, though, that IBU calculations are presented by software or even longhand calculations are estimates only and the only way to verify the IBUs in any given recipe that you brew is by expensive scientific testing. It is available to homebrewers, if they are so inclined, however. Practically speaking, the slight degradation would account for (possibly) inconsequential loss in bitterness. I know I can't tell the difference between 45 and 46 IBUs.

Without tinkering with the numbers, I'd venture a guess that a 10% loss in alpha acids would translate to, say, 2 IBUs? Hardly something to freak out about.

 

[elmetal]

anyone know what temperature they store their hops?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I wouldn't be able to detect a 10% loss in taste anyway. If I did, I would have probably put it down to my process anyway.

 

[dontman]

30 degrees. And I believe I said 5% for 6 months not 12, as BS looks for 6 month numbers.

And just to finish that math for you 5% x 2 = 10% per 12 months

(yep:

FYI I use 5% loss every six months for 30 degree pellet vacuum packs. this puts a 6% AA label at 5.89 after 12 months. I use 10% for nitrogen pack leaf at 30 degrees. This puts 6% AA at 5.78 at 12 months.

)

 

[The Pol]

The mystery is solved... whew, I was freaked!

I fully expect all of you to go to your LHBS and grill them on exactly what AA thier hops are and when they last tested them

 

[alpha_acid]

If you are THAT worried wait a few weeks and order '09 pellets for the same price.... or whole hops now

 

[The Pol]

If you are THAT worried wait a few weeks and order '09 pellets for the same price.... or whole hops now

I think most of it was that there is some bad info out there on degradation of AAs. Or confusion at the least. Some people thought that AA degraded 50% per year based on something on the net (didnt read that it was at 20C and no vacuum packaging)...

This gets people worried. Yet they will buy from vendors (not farms) and get what they get and have no idea how they were stored, what year they are etc.

 

[elmetal]

sorry about that dontman I reread your message and I was like no way he said 12 months! I was wrong!

oh well, either way, not too much of a drop anyway.

thanks

 

[Duster72]

FWIW,

I ordered a pound of Admiral whole and they accidentally sent me a pound of Amarillo whole (which really didn't make sense since I had ordered a pound of Amarillo pellet). It took them a few days to get back to me, but they're sending me the Admiral gratis.

Very good customer service.

 

[xumbi]

There is a severe lack of hop pr0n in this thread that I hope to help fix

I ordered my pound of chinook and willamette on 9/14, received the package yesterday.

Before

After!

I ended up with at least 2.5 ounces extra of each (as seems to be the norm from reading other posts in this thread).

I need to get brewing asap!

Oh by the way, I bought the food sealer off craigslist this weekend for $7! :rockin:

 

[Ksosh]

Bless me father... because when my wife finds out I bought four MORE pounds of hops (to go with the 9 I already have in my mini fridge), she's going to f-ing kill me.

But on a happier note, yay for a pound of Hellertau, Hersbrucker, Golding, and Willamette!

Belgian strong ale and stout/porter recipes here I come!

 

[Brutus Brewer]

There is a severe lack of hop pr0n in this thread that I hope to help fix

I ordered my pound of chinook and willamette on 9/14, received the package yesterday.

Before

After!

I ended up with at least 2.5 ounces extra of each (as seems to be the norm from reading other posts in this thread).

I need to get brewing asap!

Oh by the way, I bought the food sealer off craigslist this weekend for $7! :rockin:

What kind of vacuum sealer is that? The one I used didn't do near that good a job.

 

[petep1980]

LHBS still charging $3 (sometimes $4) an ounce.

The problem is I don't have enough time to use a 1# order.

 

[JesseRC]

I ordered some last Friday and havnt recieved any news from them. Is 2 weeks the usual turn around time ?

 

[Ksosh]

I got my email confirmation immediately (auto-email), and then a shipping notification about a week later, but that was before they got killed with orders, so I'm guessing 2-3 weeks is about right given their prices.

 

[The Pol]

I ordered some last Friday and havnt recieved any news from them. Is 2 weeks the usual turn around time ?

During harvest season, and while they are having a huge sale... yep! You also likely wont hear any news, they will just show up.

 

[JesseRC]

Cool, I figured as much. At these prices it's worth it. I'm still kinda new at creating my own recipe and not using kits for All grain. Can someone suggest 3 or 4 must have hops for doing stouts/Pale Ales and wheat beers?

 

[elmetal]

Can someone tell me what types of beers I got covered?

I got 1lb of:

Cascade leaf (2009)
hallertauer pellets (for my neverending hefe thirst)
fuggles
magnum (for bittering)

 

[the_Roqk]

funny, could of sworn we got to the bottom of the "AA Issue" a few pages back. This really is not some great mystery that requires a PI to solve.

Industry practice is well known and documented and explained over and over on this thread among other places.

Thanks dontman for the info. Hopefully you're not preturbed about the AA issue post. For me personally I would prefer Puterbaugh Farms/ Hops Direct to have atleast sent me something that gave some kind of insight on hop degradation. I'm the kinda guy that will go to the source if I want info. I'm not saying your's or anyone else's info is incorrect or should be dismissed. Please don't feel slighted.


Thanks flyangler18 for the info too. I still look forward to what I hear from Puterbaugh Farms/ Hops Direct.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks dontman for the info. Hopefully you're not preturbed about the AA issue post. For me personally I would prefer Puterbaugh Farms/ Hops Direct to have atleast sent me something that gave some kind of insight on hop degradation. I'm the kinda guy that will go to the source if I want info. I'm not saying your's or anyone else's info is incorrect or should be dismissed. Please don't feel slighted.


Thanks flyangler18 for the info too. I still look forward to what I hear from Puterbaugh Farms/ Hops Direct.

Why does no one care when they buy from a HBS, and they dont even tell you the YEAR of the hops you are buying? This whole thing has me thoroughly confused. Are you going to go to AHS, BMW, Midwest, B3 etc... the next time you buy hops and demand to know what the current AA is? Or to include a chart that shows you the hop degradation? A rundown on how they we stored since they recieved them in a nice hot UPS box that sat in a parking lot over the weekend?

For all you know, when you order online... that 7AA Cascade was 7AA in 2007, and the place stores then in a non air conditioned room, in tupperware... But this "issue" never arises, until we are dealing with probably the MOST trustworthy and dedicated hop supplier that is available to us as HBers? You guys crack me up... what, we dont have late orders or out of stocks or something to complain about this week? LOL

I am insterested in what HD sayes, though I think we already know... I am just reading this thread thoroughly perplexed about how we bought hops of unkown year and AA for so very long

 

[the_Roqk]

Why does no one care when they buy from a HBS, and they dont even tell you the YEAR of the hops you are buying? This whole thing has me thoroughly confused...

For all you know, when you order online... that 7AA Cascade was 7AA in 2007, and the place stores then in a non air conditioned room, in tupperware...

I still care.

I understand your concern. By reading your post how does one really know about degradation plus storage issues. Especially when dealing with "older" hops from an HBS. I would assume that if they are vacuumed sealed then atleast some of the degradation would be slowed. Maybe flyangler18 can contact his homebrew club friend and see if that question could be answered.

 

[The Pol]

I still care.

I understand your concern. By reading your post how does one really know about degradation plus storage issues. Especially when dealing with "older" hops from an HBS. I would assume that if they are vacuumed sealed then atleast some of the degradation would be slowed. Maybe flyangler18 can contact his homebrew club friend and see if that question could be answered.

I mean the storage conditions will vary by store...

I have yet to see a HBS that advertises the YEAR of thier hops.

Yet we (not me) but we collectively will search the web for great deals, and when we find "cheap" hops... jump on them, or buy kits that include them. You have no idea what you are buying, lets face it. I feel confident with HD because they are a supplier/farm... I know they care for them properly, and they tell me the YEAR at the very least.

 

[flyangler18]

Maybe flyangler18 can contact his homebrew club friend and see if that question could be answered.

I'd be happy to do that; just so I understand you correctly, what is your question/concern? Rate of degradation relative to temperature?

 

[The Pol]

The difference between vacuum sealed at:

70F is 25% loss over 12 months (approx)
30F is 10% loss over 12 months (approx)

If the temp is constant:

30F is 15% loss over 12 months if AIR TIGHT not VACUUM sealed (approx)
30F is 10% loss over 12 months if VACUUM sealed (approx)

Temp. seems to have a lot to do with the storability of hops, moreso than whether they are air tight vs vacuuum sealed

 

[RichBenn]

The difference between vacuum sealed at:

70F is 25% loss over 12 months (approx)
30F is 10% loss over 12 months (approx)

If the temp is constant:

30F is 15% loss over 12 months if AIR TIGHT not VACUUM sealed (approx)
30F is 10% loss over 12 months if VACUUM sealed (approx)

Temp. seems to have a lot to do with the storability of hops, moreso than whether they are air tight vs vacuuum sealed

And I wonder how much has deteriorated from hops I bought from my local (1 hour away) home brew shop. The "fresh" hops are kept in huge bags, not even sealed, in a glass fronted cooler (not freezer). So no wonder why the IBUs seemed more than a "little" low in the beers I made this summer. Even the pellet ones are just in small, non-O2 barrier bags, in another cooler(also exposed to florescant lighting!)

So no complaints from me about the Puterbaugh Farms hops. Great prices on 2008 and 2009 hops and O2 barrier packed shipped to my doorstep! Kinda beats the LHBS.

Puterbaugh Farms post the IBU at processing like every other hop grower/packer. They all lose potency with age, and I can't imagine any vendor doing alpha testing on year old, already packaged clearance hops.

Personally, I'm fine with what I call the "tad more" system of measurement for the older hops. Heck, as a hophead, I often see a few "tad more" hops additions inexplicably show up in my brews, expecially during the end of the boil....

BTW, thanks for the guidelines for AA deterioration. Time to get them into the freezer!

Also, I have some extra Cascades and Centennial. If anyone in the Northern Nevada/Lake Tahoe area wants to trade, send me a P.M.

 

[Benny Blanco]

No good enough. I demand to know the cohumulone levels!!

 

[RichBenn]

No good enough. I demand to know the cohumulone levels!!

LOL!

From Wiki:
Cohumulone
Traditionally, cohumulone (R=isobutyryl) has been considered to add a harsh, unpleasant bitterness to beer, and so low-cohumulone varieties were considered more desirable for brewing purposes; most noble hops have relatively low cohumulone. For this reason, cohumulone is often the only alpha acid identified specifically by hop producers. Cohumulone is indicated as a percentage (by weight) of the total alpha acid content of a hop.

However, recently the role of cohumulone has been called into question, as new high-alpha hop varieties that are also high in cohumulone have come onto the market which are considered to impart a good bitterness.

 

[lowlife]

Hurray for 19 ounce pounds!
(I divided my hops up tonight)