Grainy astringent stout

[CBBaron]

I brewed up an Oatmeal stout recently that I just bottled last night. I was really disappointed that the grainy astringent flavor from my 1822 porter (see sig) is back. I assumed that the problem with the porter was too much brown and amber malt but this stout has neither and is nearly as bad.
What in my process could be causing this?
Recipe:
1# roasted barley
1# chocolate malt (330 srm)
1# crystal 40
.5# crystal 120
1# flaked oats
8.5# maris otter
columbus hops bittering
EKG flavor
All the grains were purchased this fall and stored in plastic bags in a cool environment.
I crushed the grains right before mashing in.
mashed at between 152 and 154F with about 1.25qt/# in a 5gal cooler with SS braid
batch sparged with 4 gal in 2 equal amounts.

I see two possible problems:
1. My sparge water was about 180F. I thought that would bring the temp of my grain up to ~170F but maybe it was too hot (I didn't take a temp measurement at that time.
2. I forgot to vorlauf before draining each time. I have forgotten this step before, though usually only or the second or third drainings. I'm pretty sure I didn't vorlauf before any of the drainings this time . The beer appeared to be clear (hard to tell with a stout) but I do remember the wort being cloudy at first when draining the MLT.

So could either of these steps cause a grainy flavor that dominates the beer? Or is it some where else?
I had to try real hard to taste the roast/chocolate flavor through the grainyness, my porter I never really could taste much else. My 1822 porter has not really improved with time so I'm not expecting much from this batch but I will let it carbonate and age a few weeks before dumping anything. And ofcourse I will atleast give a couple bottles a year of aging just to see what happens.
Craig

 

[Soulive]

I recently had an astringent Stout also. Mine was due to sparging the roasted barley too hot. Next time I'll steep the roasted by itself...

 

[Beerrific]

I don't think 180 water would raise your mash above the level where you would be extracting tannins.

Could it be the grain bill? That seems like a lot of heavily roasted grains there...2lbs. I just used 1.25 lbs in mine (.75 chocolate, and .5 roasted barley) and that is border line IMO. Also, I used a little more crystal...the sweetness helps balance the harsh roast somewhat.

I think aging it will help.

 

[Evan!]

I did the same thing, only worse. I kept pushing the roasted grains envelope until they were something like 23% of my grain bill. Talk about harsh.

 

[CBBaron]

I don't think 180 water would raise your mash above the level where you would be extracting tannins.

Could it be the grain bill? That seems like a lot of heavily roasted grains there...2lbs. I just used 1.25 lbs in mine (.75 chocolate, and .5 roasted barley) and that is border line IMO. Also, I used a little more crystal...the sweetness helps balance the harsh roast somewhat.

I think aging it will help.

I don't think it was the recipe. I made an Imperial Stout with similar roasted grains that had none of this grainy flavor. Also this recipe is basically the same as the Moonless Tropical Night in BYO. I just added some oatmeal and lowered the base malt to account for better efficiency. Also I love really roasty stouts like Bell's Kalamazoo and Rogues Shakespeare.

Craig

 

[srm775]

I'm about to brew a stout and the recipe called for cold-steeping the roasted barley and chocolate malt and adding that to the last 10 min. of the boil. I've read about this before and it's supposed to reduce the astringent taste you can often get with chocolate malts and roasted barley. If any one has any input on how long to cold steep the grain, I'd be interested to know.

As for your problem ... too hot of sparge water and your ph was probably off. Not to mention, you might just also get a bit more astringent flavors from a fairly larger dark grain bill.

 

[GeoXP]

my understanding was that anything much over 170 for the mash would extract tannins. Additionally without the vorlauf, you may have had some residual husk material in the boil and extracted even more. The grain bill could add some harshness as well. These items would certainly all contribute and enhance the flavors you're finding. Sounded like you had the "perfect storm" to create those flavors...

 

[CBBaron]

Sounded like you had the "perfect storm" to create those flavors...

This sounds pretty reasonable. I will be brewing a stout very soon to replace this one in my rotation. I will make sure to keep my sparge temps in check and vorlauf well. I'll probably also reduce the roasted grains some but mostly because I want this to be ready quicker (also target a 1.050 to 1.060 instead of the 1.067 OG this beer had).
I did not check my PH but it shouldn't have been a problem should it? I mean I used the same water I always use so if anything the PH should have been low not too high which is what causes tannins to be extracted.
I guess I assumed it was one obvious problem because I have brewed several stouts without this problem but I did have one other beer that tasted very similar. The missed vorlauf is one possible connection between the two. My notes are not the best but I do tend to forget the vorlauf on occasion. I don't think my sparge temps would have been a problem with that beer.

I guess I really need to take better notes about the details of my brewing. It would help to find problems so I can avoid them in the future.

Craig

 

[Got Trub?]

I'm suspecting it was your not vorlaufing and boiling alot of husk and grain material. With that amount of dark grains your pH is going to be fine and a "hot" sparge won't extract tannins - if it did no one would decoction mash. As for your grain bill I have similar ones for both a porter and stout and while I taste the roasty it is not harsh.

GT

 

[CBBaron]

I'm suspecting it was your not vorlaufing and boiling alot of husk and grain material. With that amount of dark grains your pH is going to be fine and a "hot" sparge won't extract tannins - if it did no one would decoction mash. As for your grain bill I have similar ones for both a porter and stout and while I taste the roasty it is not harsh.

GT

Thanks,
That makes sense to me. I didn't worry about it at the time as I didn't see and husks in the brew pot only a cloudy wort. I think in the future I will make sure to vorlauf at least 2qt before draining the MLT. I know on some of my beers it can still be a little cloudy after 1 qt.
I know you said the hot sparge was not a problem, and I'm hoping you are correct because I have an IPA in the fermenter where I used similar techniques, however I think I will lower my sparge water temp to 175F or below. And I will use a thermometer in the MLT to see what temps I am getting.
Well, I am going to try to make a slightly smaller stout this weekend, so wish me luck.

Craig

 

[Willie3]

Its got to be the vorlauf. When brewing stouts or any other dark beers with dark kilned grains you have more of a chance of getting a "burnt, grainy, husky" tone to your brew. Stouts are famous for the roasted flavors, not too far down the line from that are the flavors mentioned above. So even if you don't have many husks in your boil, you will still get grainy tones. When you miss this step twice its twice as much.

RDWHAHB and ensure you vorlauf. It is a very important step.

- WW

 

[CBBaron]

Its got to be the vorlauf. When brewing stouts or any other dark beers with dark kilned grains you have more of a chance of getting a "burnt, grainy, husky" tone to your brew. Stouts are famous for the roasted flavors, not too far down the line from that are the flavors mentioned above. So even if you don't have many husks in your boil, you will still get grainy tones. When you miss this step twice its twice as much.

RDWHAHB and ensure you vorlauf. It is a very important step.

- WW

Thanks, I will make sure to vorlauf well when I do my second attempt at the oatmeal stout.

Craig

 

[clayof2day]

What is the your residual alkalinity of the water you are using? This can greatly effect your mash pH and can lend harsh/astringent flavors, especially in darker beers (i.e. stouts and porters) as the darker grains lower mash pH.

Chapter 15 at www.howtobrew.com and his spreadsheet really helped understand RA and water.

 

[CBBaron]

What is the your residual alkalinity of the water you are using? This can greatly effect your mash pH and can lend harsh/astringent flavors, especially in darker beers (i.e. stouts and porters) as the darker grains lower mash pH.

Chapter 15 at www.howtobrew.com and his spreadsheet really helped understand RA and water.

Perhaps I am missing something, but I thought that a ph that was too high would extract tannins. A ph that was too low would result in poor extraction. My efficiency was good (80%), however I am now wondering about sparge ph. In most of my beers I have been adding 1 tsp Gypsum to ensure the ph was low enough. I figured I did not need it for a beer this dark. Perhaps I was wrong. When I brew this weekend I will be sure to check the ph with ph strips.

My water is from lake Erie (Cleveland city water supply) and is moderately hard (not sure the residual alkalinity). I also have an under counter RO system. So I usually brew with a combination of 50/50 RO and dechlorinated water. I then add 1 tsp gypsum to the mash water (15-16qt) and 1 tsp gypsum to the sparge water (~4 gal). For the stout I did not add the Gypsum.

So the question becomes how do I go about ensuring a suitable ph for tomorrows brew? Should I use more city water to increase the hardness? Should I add gypsum to the sparge water, or both sparge and mash water like I do my amber to brown beers (I don't make pale beers)? Something else I can do without going to the HBS? I have all the ingredients necessary for the brew so I would like to brew tomorrow and it is difficult to get to the HBS before next week. I'm thinking I may get some 5.2 for future brews just to be on the safe side.

Craig

 

[uglygoat]

I will let it carbonate and age a few weeks before dumping anything. And ofcourse I will atleast give a couple bottles a year of aging just to see what happens.
Craig

forget about it for a month or so and see how it is then.

 

[CBBaron]

forget about it for a month or so and see how it is then.

I plan on it but I'm not hopeful.
I'm a big fan of stouts and my other stouts have been wonderful right out of the fermenter. Even my imperial stout. This one tastes like my 1822 porter which has been bottled for nearly 6months and still tastes the same. I finally dumped a few bottles of the porter to bottle this stout because I just couldn't drink it.
Craig

 

[clayof2day]

So the question becomes how do I go about ensuring a suitable ph for tomorrows brew? Should I use more city water to increase the hardness? Should I add gypsum to the sparge water, or both sparge and mash water like I do my amber to brown beers (I don't make pale beers)? Something else I can do without going to the HBS? I have all the ingredients necessary for the brew so I would like to brew tomorrow and it is difficult to get to the HBS before next week. I'm thinking I may get some 5.2 for future brews just to be on the safe side.
Craig

No real way to guess. A water report from the city might be available online, then if you get JPs spreadsheet from the howtobrew website it will spit out RA and allow you to mess around with salt additions and tell you how it effects your RA. If your pH is too low in this case, Gypsum won't help as the Ca will aid in lowering your mash pH, carbonates is what you're after (if it is the problem). Without knowing your water it's a crapshoot.

 

[edennis]

I experienced grainy astringent beer for a while it took me awhile but I discovered it was because I wasn't vourlaufing long enough. I always read that you only need to recycle around two quarts but for my equiptment (10 gallon cooler w/false floor) I have to continuously recycle the wort until the flow starts slowing down substantially (much clearer also) letting me know the grain filter is working. Im sure this is different for everyone. That is my guess, try vourlaufing until you notice your wort is flowing slower (you should notice when this happens).

 

[CBBaron]

No real way to guess. A water report from the city might be available online, then if you get JPs spreadsheet from the howtobrew website it will spit out RA and allow you to mess around with salt additions and tell you how it effects your RA. If your pH is too low in this case, Gypsum won't help as the Ca will aid in lowering your mash pH, carbonates is what you're after (if it is the problem). Without knowing your water it's a crapshoot.

So if I end up with too low of a mash pf can I add baking soda to bring it back in range?

Found the water report online
Any Comments?

USA OH Cleveland 44118 1/1/2005 Municipal Source Ca:32.5
Mg:8.8
Bicarb:80.0
Sulfate:20.0
Na:7.7
Cl:18
Hardness:120
Alkalinity:97.6
RA:69.2
PH:7.32
Fe:.012
Chloramine:Unknown
Notes:The measured bicarbonate may seem low compared to the alkalinity, but I am assured that Cleveland water has virtually no carbonate.

 

[clayof2day]

Great brewing water! Nice base you can add any minerals to get where you need to be. I don't remember Palmer's guidlines off the top of my head, but I think for beers in the stout color range you want RAs of ~100+. Don't quote me on that, though, i'd look for yourself

 

[faber]

Vorlaufing becomes more important with a grain bill like that. But still, that grain bill... I've made stouts with 5 oz each of roasted barley and chocolate malt--still black as night (SRMs ≥ 28) with just the right amount of roastiness.

It seems like with 1 lb. each AND skipping the vorlauf, you overshot the margin of error. Still bottle it and leave it for a month or more, as Uglygoat suggests above. 6-8 weeks maybe.

I'd be interested to hear how it turned out.

 

[CBBaron]

Vorlaufing becomes more important with a grain bill like that. But still, that grain bill... I've made stouts with 5 oz each of roasted barley and chocolate malt--still black as night (SRMs ≥ 28) with just the right amount of roastiness.

It seems like with 1 lb. each AND skipping the vorlauf, you overshot the margin of error. Still bottle it and leave it for a month or more, as Uglygoat suggests above. 6-8 weeks maybe.

I'd be interested to hear how it turned out.

I tend to like my beers a little bit on the extreme edge and I got the recipe from the Jamil show so the large amount of dark malts attracted me. I didn't intend to skip the vorlauf but I was trying to do too many tasks at the same time and ended up forgetting it each time until I was near the end of the draining.
Brewing never seems to be relaxing to me because I always seem to have 10 other things I am trying to get do at the same time.
Craig

 

[CBBaron]

Well I'm not dumping my previous stout but I brewed up a replacement for it today. First the recipe was about 10 points lighter.
Second it use .75# chocolate, .5# roasted barley instead of a # each.
I closely monitored the ph and temps. My ph was about 5.2 for the mash (without any adjustments) and the sparge stayed below 5.6. I hit my mash temps and using 175F sparge water I had 162F for the first sparge and 170F for the second. It seems likely that on my previous batch the second sparge climbed much too high.
Also I made sure to vorlauf before each draining. I added back the first 2 qts each time.
The sweet wort had no detectable astringency unlike my memory of the first one which had considerable astringency. I wrote it off the first time as green beer but now I know what to look for. I think this beer could be great but it will take time to tell.

Craig

 

[uglygoat]

do you bulk age your stouts cc?

 

[Nostrildamus]

A solution which you may have already tried:

When you go to drink these babies make sure you don't disturb the sediment on the bottom of the bottle or keg. It is possible that the lack of a vorlauf left grain particulate in the beer and that is contributing to a greater off flavour than need be. I'm not saying that it will fix the problem completely but it may make the stout drinkable.

A friend of mine had this same problem with an Hefeweizen extract recipe using steeped grains. I found the beer undrinakable at first and then mistakenly poured one without swirling the sediment and adding it to the poured beer. It was fine, though light in body and missing the yeasty Weizen taste. The steeping sock he had his grain in was stretched out and allowed small grains and husks through and into the wort which was boiled. The off taste you're describing sounds a lot like the one his beer had.

Give it a shot and maybe you can salvage your beer.

 

[CBBaron]

do you bulk age your stouts cc?

This one was in the primary almost 5 weeks, no secondary.
My imperial stout was 3 weeks primary 3 weeks secondary.

I just bottled the previous stout so maybe it will improve with age. But like I said my porter that had a similar taste has not improved at all after 6months in the bottle.

Craig

 

[CBBaron]

Would this grainy astringency affect carbonation?
I am starting to drink the red ale I made just before the Oatmeal stout. I noticed that this beer has some amount of astringency. Its not nearly as bad as my stout or my porter from this summer but it is still noticeable. However both my porter and this red ale have very low carbonation. I primed with a heaping 3/4cup of corn sugar and it has been in the bottle about a month.
I will be much more careful about vorlaufing, ph and temps on future but I am curious about my car levels. Even with 1cup of corn sugar I seem to be on the low side for many of my beers, the astringent ones most of all.

Thanks

Craig

 

[CBBaron]

Well my astringent stout is lightly carbed after 2 weeks in the bottle so I decided to try one tonight.
Its not a great beer and the astringency is much too strong but the aroma of the beer is nice and roasty and the astringency is not too strong to prevent me from drinking the beer. I could see where a slight amount of astringency would be good for this style of beer but what is there is over the top.
I took a gravity reading and sampled my attempt #2 stout and this one is smooth with roasty flavors and no astringency. Once it is bottled and carbonated I can see this beer is going to be one I can drink several at a sitting. I may try blending a bottle of each of my stouts to see if that will mellow the astringency sufficiently to be enjoyable. I do think I can prevent a repeat of the astringency, which is good since I planned on participating in the 08.08.08 brew swap and I wouldn't feel right sharing a beer that tasted like my astringent stout.

In sumary:
Watch your ph when mashing and sparging.
Keep your grain bed temps below 170F when sparging.
Vorlauf plenty of wort before starting a sparge.
Enjoy astringent free beer

Craig

 

[Nostrildamus]

Thanks for sharing your pain so that the rest of us could learn from it and thanks for summing it up into three easy to remember points.

I hope blending works and if it doesn't, pawn it off on your pals. They'll either drink it and not know the difference or hate it and never ask you to share your other much improved home brew.

 

[CBBaron]

Thanks for sharing your pain so that the rest of us could learn from it and thanks for summing it up into three easy to remember points.

I hope blending works and if it doesn't, pawn it off on your pals. They'll either drink it and not know the difference or hate it and never ask you to share your other much improved home brew.

Thanks for the word of encouragement.
The only thing that bothers me is I am not sure what was the cause of astringency in this beer. It could have been any of the above reasons but I doubt it was all of them.
I'm leaning toward the lack of vorlauf as the cause because I know I did not recirculate before draining but others have done that in similar setups and even steeping in a grain bag will result in a similar amount of husks and flour in the wort.
Sparge temp is possible as I know I was using water above 170F in attempt to improve efficiency but I'm not sure my grain bed got above 170F.
A high ph seems least likely because the dark grains in a stout tend to lower the ph not raise it. However I blended RO water with tap water resulting in a fairly soft water. And I did not add the gypsum to the sparge water like I usually do to help lower the ph.

I guess it doesn't matter as long as I am vigilant about all three items in future beers. I may get some of the 5-star ph stabilizer just to make it easier to control that aspect of the brewing.

Craig

 

[TexLaw]

As severe as you say the astringency is, I agree that there was more than one cause. If you had a high temperature, high pH, and husks in your boil, then I'm not surprised by astringency.


TL

 

[CBBaron]

I am definitely still a newbie!!!!
What was my grainy astringent stout is mellowing into a very tasty Export Stout after just a few weeks in the bottle. I thought I had learned patience but I still jumped to the "is my beer ruined?" question. I think the stout still has some amount of astringency that is undesirable but it blends into the background now leaving a decent beer. Perhaps in another month the astringency will just be a complexity in the beer instead of a fault?

Thanks for every one who helped the newbie. Those that said give the beer time were right again.

I will still pay attention to my vorlaufing, ph and temps but at least I have 5 gal of drinkable beer.
Craig

 

[TexLaw]

Perhaps in another month the astringency will just be a complexity in the beer instead of a fault?

Well, you nailed it right there. That's exactly what happens with tannins. I'm glad to hear that it's mellowing well, already. It will continue to mellow, and I bet you'll be pleased with the results.

Congratulations on the beer, and bravo on your patience!


TL

 

[CBBaron]

Congratulations on the beer, and bravo on your patience!
TL

I'm learning the patience thing over and over again
I thought I had it down with leaving beers in the fermenters for 5 weeks to 2 months and not drinking most of my bottles until at least a month after bottling. But I jumped the gun on this beer.
I guess I just panicked as the flavor I got from the beer at bottling reminded me of my failed attempt at a porter using large amounts of brown and amber malts. I'm still hoping that beer mellows out after 6 months.
The good news is my stout is good beer. Definitely not award winning but good none the less. And next time I know what to do to work towards award winning beer.
Craig