Good substitute for Acid Malt?

[DSorenson]

Trying to follow AJ's primer:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

The LHBS is perpetually out of acid malt.

Any ideas?

I'm brewing one low gravity "English bitter" (5.5 gallons) and one amber wheat (1 gallon). The "English Bitter" is all munich malt. The amber will have 20.3% caramel malt (half 60 L and half 120 L)

I thought maybe I could use a reasonable amount of gypsum for the bitter instead of using the primer.

 

[Rivenin]

there really isn't a substitute for acid malt in the malt area. Lactic acid, phosphoric acid, etc. will work just fine to put acid into the mash... although they may not be in the beer section, they might stock them in the wine area.

as long as your mashPH is fine, you don't need any acid to drop it any lower.

if you have the recipe, we could prolly help you out more. and what is the water profile you'l be using?

 

[mabrungard]

You are actually fortunate that the shop is out of acid malt. Using a liquid acid is much more accurate and reliable. Lactic and phosphoric acids are popular choices for brewing.

 

[MNDan]

I have a 12 ml syringe for measuring lactic acid - works great! Just a friendly tip...

 

[J187]

+1 for the lactic. Works great, pretty high taste threshold, and readily available.

 

[Rivenin]

You are actually fortunate that the shop is out of acid malt. Using a liquid acid is much more accurate and reliable. Lactic and phosphoric acids are popular choices for brewing.

i think he mentioned using the primer above, which would make liquid acid adjustments a bit difficult

OP - look at Martins signature for his bru'n water spreadsheet. it's way more robust then the primer if you're into salt additions and PH and such. Plus it has areas for many different types of acids.

the primer will get you into a great spot, but if you wanna dive in more, look into martins spreadsheet, it'll give you an idea of what you're doing vs just blindly throwing things in.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

+1 for lactic acid. Here is a simple equation that works for me:
http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html

 

[DSorenson]

Well thanks guys for the responses, they didn't have either lactic or phosphoric acid as far as I can see. The LHBS guy said to perform an acid rest.

I wasn't looking to add 2 hours on to my brew day...

Girlfriend's Brother Turns 21 Amber Ale (based on his favorite "mountain ale" blue moon seasonal)
Batch Size: 1 gallon
1.25 lbs american pale
.5 lb wheat
.25 lb Cara 60 L
.25 lb Cara 120 L

.25 oz EKG @ 60
.75 oz EKG @ 0

Das Bitter
Final Volume: 5.5 gallons
10 lbs munich malt

1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 15
1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 5
1 oz Nelson Sauvin dry hop

I will be starting with distilled water for both.


I have to brew tomorrow. HAVE to. I am compelled. I need my fix, mang.

Also, I have a dental appointment at 11 am to get a cavity drilled, and I wanted to be done by 4. Hope to save some time somewhere.

 

[SpeedYellow]

If you're using 100% Munich malt grist, you probably wouldn't even want any acid anyway since the distilled water pH of Munich is pretty low. I forget offhand, but it's low. But surely you're using Brunwater, EZ Water, or whatever, so you should already know that.

 

[DSorenson]

If you're using 100% Munich malt grist, you probably wouldn't even want any acid anyway since the distilled water pH of Munich is pretty low. I forget offhand, but it's low. But surely you're using Brunwater, EZ Water, or whatever, so you should already know that.

Haha... well... haven't gotten around to that yet. This whole water chemistry thing is catching on slow for me...

 

[ajdelange]

Make some! Put some base or light caramel/crystal in a container and add just enough water to cover it. Incubate at 47 °C (117 °F) for a couple of days. If it smells unpleasant, the wrong bugs won out. Toss it and try again with another malt. If you have a pH meter then monitor pH until it stops dropping (3-4 days). Dump it out on a cookie sheet and place in a warm oven until dry. Obviously, you will be adding flavors to the malt during this last 'roasting'. That's why it's preferable to lactic acid. Be sure to taste it.

We should, of course, point out that those sauermalz/sauergut flavors are traditional in continental lagers - not English beers.

But looking at your grists we also have to note that an all Munich beer violates one of the conditions upon which the Primer rests: that the beer will be mostly base malts. Munich malts have DI pH's in the 5.4 - 5.5 range and thus would not require any acid. A beer made with Munich instead of base malt that contains 10% each 60L and 120L caramel malts is going to have a mash pH that is too low unless some alkali is added. Again, you are without the bounds of the Primer here.

Another thing to think about with these grists is whether they have the necessary diastatic potentials to fully convert. I think you will probably be OK with Munich but I'd check on that.

 

[DSorenson]

Make some! Put some base or light caramel/crystal in a container and add just enough water to cover it. Incubate at 47 °C (117 °F) for a couple of days. If it smells unpleasant, the wrong bugs won out. Toss it and try again with another malt. If you have a pH meter then monitor pH until it stops dropping (3-4 days). Dump it out on a cookie sheet and place in a warm oven until dry. Obviously, you will be adding flavors to the malt during this last 'roasting'. That's why its preferrable to lactic acid. Be sure to taste it.

We should, of course, point out that those sauermalz/sauergut flavors are traditional in continental lagers - not English beers.

But looking at your grists we also have to note that an all Munich beer violates one of the conditions upon which the Primer rests: that the beer will be mostly base malts. Munich malts have DI pH's in the 5.4 - 5.5 range and thus would not require any acid. A beer made with Munich instead of base malt that contains 10% each 60L and 120L caramel malts is going to have a mash pH that is too low unless some alkali is added. Again, you are without the bounds of the Primer here.

Another thing to think about with these grists is whether they have the necessary diastatic potentials to fully convert. I think you will probably be OK with Munich but I'd check on that.

I think you may have missed that they are two different beers, though I thank you for pointing out things I missed in the primer

 

[ajdelange]

I read it as one beer made with 100% Munich and a second with 80% Munich and 10% each 60L and 120L caramel. N'est-ce pas?

 

[DSorenson]

Ah, that was the confusion! I'll post the recipes with a little nicer formatting, but one is 100% munich and the other is approximately 55.7% American pale (two row).

The one gallon batch uses a 20.7% cara malts of various lovibonds- I'm kind of hoping that might do something to help get me into the pH range I am looking for, but perhaps it doesn't contribute much.

Thanks so much for the help, as always AJ. You're very dedicated to helping others.

Girlfriend's Brother Turns 21 Amber Ale (based on his favorite "mountain ale" blue moon seasonal)

Batch Size: 1 gallon

1.25 lbs american pale
.5 lb wheat
.25 lb Cara 60 L
.25 lb Cara 120 L

.25 oz EKG @ 60
.75 oz EKG @ 0

Das Bitter

Final Volume: 5.5 gallons

10 lbs munich malt

1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 15
1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 5
1 oz Nelson Sauvin dry hop

I will be starting with distilled water for both.

 

[mabrungard]

Make some! Put some base or light caramel/crystal in a container and add just enough water to cover it. Incubate at 47 °C (117 °F) for a couple of days. If it smells unpleasant, the wrong bugs won out. Toss it and try again with another malt. If you have a pH meter then monitor pH until it stops dropping (3-4 days). Dump it out on a cookie sheet and place in a warm oven until dry. Obviously, you will be adding flavors to the malt during this last 'roasting'. That's why its preferrable to lactic acid. Be sure to taste it.

My experience is that even though an acid rested grain mass can smell kind of rank at times, they often mature into a cleaner, lactic aroma when given enough time. This is due to the competition between the various microbes and the lactic bacteria eventually win out and simultaneously acidify the mass.

Don't throw it out, let it mature more.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, those two malts in those amounts should provide enough protons that you wouldn't need additional acid.

 

[DSorenson]

Thanks gents. I will also look into making my own acid malt. I'm not sure how I'm going to keep 117*F for 3-4 days, but I will think of something.

Also- calcium chlorate turned my water milky-ish white. I assume that means it didn't dissolve properly?

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks gents. I will also look into making my own acid malt. I'm not sure how I'm going to keep 117*F for 3-4 days, but I will think of something.

It doesn't have to be spot on but should definitely be warm. In No. Va. you could probably just put it outside (covered) in the summer. That is an element I forgot to mention. It should be covered closely.

Also- calcium chlorate turned my water milky-ish white. I assume that means it didn't dissolve properly?

I really, really hope that's a typo. Calcium chlorate is an oxidizing agent which would ruin your beer and has the potential to ruin your day, lost beer aside.

We assume you mean calcium chloride. That is very soluble in water and should not result in the formation of a precipitate unless the water contains a lot of phosphate.

If you mean calcium carbonate - that is not at all soluble in water and will stay in milky suspension which will, eventually, settle.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Why not simply buy Lactic or Phosphoric acid from Northern Brewer? It costs a whopping $4 for like a 2 year supply.

 

[DSorenson]

I really, really hope that's a typo. Calcium chlorate is an oxidizing agent which would ruin your beer and has the potential to ruin your day, lost beer aside.

We assume you mean calcium chloride. That is very soluble in water and should not result in the formation of a precipitate unless the water contains a lot of phosphate.

If you mean calcium carbonate - that is not at all soluble in water and will stay in milky suspension which will, eventually, settle.

Well son of a gun...

I accidentally ended up with calcium carbonate.

Any idea of what this does to beer?

I just brewed two beers with this today.

The expletives that are coming to mind are unimaginable.

 

[ajdelange]

Calcium carbonate is an alkali. It increases mash and beer pH but it does so gradually. As you have seen very little of it dissolves unless acid is present and when acid is present it dissolves slowly. It is chemically the same as limestone. Limestone caves are formed when carbonic acid in water dissolves this limestone but it takes thousands and thousands of years for this to take place. That reaction ( CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 ---> Ca++ + 2HCO3-) is responsible for most of the bicarbonate and thus most of the alkalinity of our brewing water. It seems reasonable, therefore, when alkalinity us needed for brewing, to try to get it from CaCO3 and for years brewers were advised to use it in amazing quantities based on no more than the color of the beer they were brewing. Problem was it didn't dissolve which was sort of a good thing because the people that wrote the original spreadsheets didn't understand the chemistry and were advising addition of twice as much as was necessary in many cases.

The reason it doesn't appear to dissolve when added to beer/mash/wort is because the reaction with acid is slow at higher pH and when dilute. Add it to sulfuric acid or even vinegar and it fizzes right up but with beer or mash it can take hours. The problem is that it doesn't add the required alkalinity to the mash in the usual time taken for mashing but any which makes it through into the beer continues to absorb acid as long as there is any of it left. I call it the gift that keeps giving.

In a nutshell the part of the chalk that did dissolve in the mash would have raised its pH higher than desired as there was no requirement for alkalinity here. Then the remainder will have raised kettle pH and fermenter pH. The prospects for these beers aren't bright but you never know, they might not be too bad so let them ferment out and taste before doing anything drastic.

 

[DSorenson]

In a nutshell the part of the chalk that did dissolve in the mash would have raised its pH higher than desired as there was no requirement for alkalinity here. Then the remainder will have raised kettle pH and fermenter pH. The prospects for these beers aren't bright but you never know, they might not be too bad so let them ferment out and taste before doing anything drastic.

Thanks so much, AJ. I especially like ^this^ part, because I feel pretty awful I had a whole brew day go so wrong just because I wasn't paying attention to what I bought at the LHBS.

According to your chemistry there, am I correct in thinking the Calcium Carbonate does release calcium into the water? I assume its an aqueous solution. I would feel better knowing that my distilled water did actually get some calcium in there, at the very least.

EDIT: and, of course, I conducted the mash for 2 hours while I was getting a tooth drilled- giving the calcium carbonate plenty of time to do damage if it could. Interestingly enough, I hit an efficiency of 78%, which is unheard of for me. (I'm usually in the 65% range). That might just be a fluke.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, calcium is added but each unit of chalk introduces only 1/3.5 units of pH reducing effect while also adding 2 units of pH increasing effect.

 

[DSorenson]

Yes, calcium is added but each unit of chalk introduces only 1/3.5 units of pH reducing effect while also adding 2 units of pH increasing effect.

Ah, the reason I was interested about the calcium was for the yeast and enzymes. I understood exactly what you meant about it increasing pH. What an unfortunate mishap...

Thanks again, AJ. I think I'm starting to understand some of this brewing chemistry just from your explanations here.

 

[DSorenson]

AJ- saw your work during a Northern Brewer "water" class with Palmer. Found it on you tube. Needless to say I was impressed and glad you're involved on this forum!

I'm afraid that the CaCO3 had it's way with the beer. At one week (low gravity) and a few days (force carbonating) the beer smells funny (metalic, maybe? definite husky/grainy quality) and tastes just about the same. It's not awful, but it's really not pleasurable to drink.

I'm on the verge of dumping the batch because it's so disappointing and not very good.

I would love to dry 100% munich again (the wort was heavenly) but now I am gun shy, fearing that some of the grainy quality is due to the munich, but not sure how much. I know that's just paranoia...