Going all grain. Suspected EXTRACT TWANG

[derekcw83]

After 2 years of brewing and many failed batches, I'm going to all grain. My question is whether I'm going in the right direction or not to eliminate the TWANG I've had in nearly ALL my brews


Condensed timeline:
Began purchasing equipment, hops, and LME online
Improved every aspect of my brewing trying to figure out the taste issue, temp control, fresh hops, fresh yeast, sanitation, hop schedule improvements, etc.
Basically I've perfected every process and ingredient

Only thing I never changed until recently was my extract. And I'm talking 4 or 5 30lb tubs of the stuff (i am a little obsessive). LME that I stored at room temperature, after opening many times, and some I still have from purchasing 2 years ago, some along the way.

Is extract twang real? Most people don't stockpile LME like I did. And now the first 2 batches I brewed with DME and 1 with all grain, had ZERO hint of the twang I've had to endure the last 2 years when I tasted them prior to bottling.

Also, anyone have experience with how "extract twang" affects hoppy beers?

 

[mongoose33]

What brand of LME did you use? What was the best-by date?

Is there anyone local you can consult about the twang, see if they agree that's what it is?

 

[casualbrewer]

I have gotten a bit of twang from LME before but not with DME. The key to extract is late addition. Add them at the very end to match color and flavor. But since I switched to all grain I haven't gotten that "twang" either... IMO using DME with very late additions results in a similar end product as all grain. But I am yet just a grasshoppa!

 

[derekcw83]

What brand of LME did you use? What was the best-by date?

Is there anyone local you can consult about the twang, see if they agree that's what it is?

It has always been briess. My newest 33lb bottle had aug 14 stamped on the bottom, no other dates on it

Yes I consulted my LHBS, They couldn't quite figure it out, but like I said in my post, the last few I've done have been without LME and that distinct taste is absent at time of bottling.

 

[derekcw83]

I have gotten a bit of twang from LME before but not with DME. The key to extract is late addition. Add them at the very end to match color and flavor. But since I switched to all grain I haven't gotten that "twang" either... IMO using DME with very late additions results in a similar end product as all grain. But I am yet just a grasshoppa!

How old was your LME when you got that bit of twang?

 

[Jaybird]

I personally find I taste that twang with LME also. With DME I have never gotten that twang you are talking about. I have found that the Briess LME has a little less twang than others I have tried but it is still there for me. As far as hoppy beers go and LME (again for my taste) I have never really seen much of an improvement. Old LME will be much more prevalent on the twang side. You said 2 years old. Seems old to me. There are options and things you can do with OLD LME but thats for another forum.

Cheers
Jay

 

[dmtaylor]

LME might be the single biggest cause of the twang. Yes the twang is very real. Wish I could have gotten this to you sooner:

If you do switch to all-grain, your problem will certainly disappear. However, it might not have been a necessity based on the above.

 

[derekcw83]

LME might be the single biggest cause of the twang. Yes the twang is very real. Wish I could have gotten this to you sooner:

If you do switch to all-grain, your problem will certainly disappear. However, it might not have been a necessity based on the above.

Excellent chart, thank you.

 

[Calder]

It has always been briess. My newest 33lb bottle had aug 14 stamped on the bottom, no other dates on it

There is a batch code on the label. It contains the date it was packaged

 

[derekcw83]

There is a batch code on the label. It contains the date it was packaged

Okay how do I decipher the code?

 

[shetc]

For me, no more twang when I switched from LME to all-grain.

 

[Calder]

Okay how do I decipher the code?

I've not bought one for a while, but it seemed pretty obvious to me. What is the code on your pack.

I googled some picks and this is what I found on a few:

150110A = 1/10/2015

100407A = 4/7/2010

111106A = 11/06/2011

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

I've never really known what people mean when they say "twang". Never encountered that word relative to a flavor. Pedantry aside, we can all agree that many beers brewed with extract have an oddness to the malt character. It's definitely the LME, and old, stale, oxidized extract really compounds the problem. Using DME in place of some or all of the LME seems to remedy this problem, but I can see how it might feel a bit strange using it exclusively. Almost like "powdered beer, just add water!", but I do find it to have a better flavor.

Not saying you have this problem, but another source of the "that's definitely extract beer" flavor is a poor fermentation. Underpitching, underoxygenation, old or unhealthy yeast, and fermentation temperature swings will all cause strange off flavors, premature flocculation, and incomplete fermentation. Perhaps a less complete fermentation leaves more wort in the finished beer. Wort has extract, extract has its distinct flavor. Just spitballing here.

Going all-grain eliminated the weird flavor I had in my first 3 extract batches.

 

[radwizard]

I was getting a fair bit of the twang when doing extract as well. I read posts on here saying the twang was a myth and tried everything (late additions, temp control). I reduced the twang, but it never was totally gone until I went all grain.
I'm not sure how to discribe those flavors I was getting. It wasn't horrible, but I know that I cannot make top notch beer using LME. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I could never figure it out. My second batch of BIAB was everything I wanted from a home brew.

 

[shetc]

My extract beer tasted good but had something on the finish, which to me was twang. I believe I bought fresh kits from Northern Brewer, used good sanitation and fermentation controls, but still there was something on the finish. Switched to BIAB, but other brewing techniques remained as before. No more twang on the finish.

 

[schematix]

Same experience here. Not sure i'd say it was a 'twang', but it was an odd flavor only present in extract brews. Didn't matter if it was a late addition or whatever. All grain fixed it.

 

[moors]

I recently switched to DME altogether and swore off LME. I've been tweaking my process, yeast, and equipment, but my last Hefewiezen was still twangy. I used very fresh wheat LME that just arrived at my LHS. The date code was fresh by a matter of weeks. Nevertheless, the resulting beer was twangy. Kindof sour-lemon off-flavors. My experience thus far with DME:

1. Better color. LME boils at the bottom of the kettle and darkens. DME clumps at the top of the kettle and doesn't darken.

2. Less stirring. Since the LME settles on the bottom of the kettle, I stirred the wort for several minutes to make sure the LME didn't scald.

3. Easier to add. I hated DME early in my brewing experience because it clumped and the bag gets sticky in the kettle's steam. Nowadays, I simply dump the bag in the kettle and let the clumps break up by themselves. Sometimes I stir it around some. When I used LME, I would setup a separate kettle with warm water and soak the canisters to soften it. No more! Now all I need is a pair of scissors.

4. Cheaper and more responsible. LME is heavier to transport, which results in higher shipping costs and higher fuel consumption by the shipping fleets.

 

[derekcw83]

Thank you everyone for your input. It appears its clearly not a myth. And I can definitely say I've noticed FAR fresher, and better taste in the couple of all grain batches I've bottled since switching. And even the one DME batch I did as an experiment, was a pilsen dme that turned out an amber color and the taste was really lacking, almost worst than my lme batches.

I used to seek out clearances on lme, big mistake in hindsight. But in a few weeks I'll know for sure when I've carbed up some all grain IPAs.

But still one question nobody can seem to answer...

What is the effect of this twang on HOPS?????

The few ipas ive made with lme are always far off from the aroma I'm looking for anf the taste is overly bitter in an almost sour way. I suppose at this point I can attribute to my lme, but only time will truly tell.

 

[dmtaylor]

the taste is overly bitter in an almost sour way

That is a great description of the "twang", which comes from the extract, and has absolutely nothing to do with the hops.

 

[Kate00]

Do some research on fermentation temperature control and yeast health!!! These forums have some good information, and there's even more on the Brewing Networks Brew Strong series that is available on Podcast.

The culprit for off flavors when using extract, or all-grain, are usually fermentation temp control and sanitation issues. I switched to all grain a long time ago, but have still done a few extract batches in the meantime and have not had an issue. I started using starters at the same time I switched to all grain, and added temperature control to my setup shortly thereafter. The yeast starters made a big jump in my quality and temp control made an even bigger one.

In a nutshell: Each strain of yeast has an ideal temperature range. Drop under the temp, and the yeast quit working and under-attenuate. Go over the range by much and the yeast produce esters and off flavors that you don't want in the beer. Temperature swings (5 degrees or so) up and down while the beer is fermenting, such as fermenting in a space that is hot during the day and cold at night, do more of the same.

Pitch rates are important too. Use too little yeast and you get bad esters, Too much and you don't get the flavors that the yeast provides. mrmalty.com has a yeast calculator that is spot on.

I know a lot of guys that switched to all-grain and discovered temperature control and yeast health at the same time. I think getting a feel for yeast has more of an impact than all-grain overall. Switching to all grain brings in other issues such as fermentability of the wort (mash temp) and the importance of a boil that is hard enough to boil off proteins (a burner strong enough or a 90 min boil).

Sorry for the longish post, but extract isn't likely the problem. The companies that are producing the commercial extract are very good at what they do, and quality control issues are extremely rare. I've done extract batches using temp control, starters, and good sanitation and the beer has been fantastic.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've done extract batches using temp control, starters, and good sanitation and the beer has been fantastic.

I have as well, but the beers generally don't turn out as fantastic as all-grain or partial mash. I have tasted some excellent extract beers in my lifetime, but it's hard to control and predict, especially with LME. DME gives a better chance but even that takes practice. Specialty grains or a small mash can really work wonders. If you just make a batch with 100% extract, you're likely to be kind of disappointed, even with perfect sanitation, pitch, and temp controls.

 

[mongoose33]

Pitch rates are important too. Use too little yeast and you get bad esters, Too much and you don't get the flavors that the yeast provides. mrmalty.com has a yeast calculator that is spot on.

Parts of that site are down--the calculator can't be accessed, but there are other pages which work. Search mrmalty.com in Google and you'll see what works and doesn't.

Don't know why it doesn't work for some and not other pages.

 

[Kate00]

Parts of that site are down--the calculator can't be accessed, but there are other pages which work. Search mrmalty.com in Google and you'll see what works and doesn't.

Don't know why it doesn't work for some and not other pages.

Edit: double posted.. sorry!

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

Parts of that site are down--the calculator can't be accessed, but there are other pages which work. Search mrmalty.com in Google and you'll see what works and doesn't.

Don't know why it doesn't work for some and not other pages.

Wow, that sucks about Mrmalty being down. I wonder what happened.

The Brewer's Friend Yeast Calculator has been my go-to for a while now. Good amount of customization, and a couple of different growth models to choose from if you're doing a starter. A good substitute for Mrmalty.

There's also YeastCalchttp://www.yeastcalculator.com/ and Homebrew Dad's calculators. Any of those are great choices, and are all great orders of magnitude better than nothing. A proper pitching rate is critical to good fermentation health.


And yeah, everything that Kate00 said is spot on. Though I still contend that LME has a distinct flavor, I'll also admit that since discovering temp control and proper pitching rates, I haven't revisited extract. I think it's time for a little experiment of my own.