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Everyone is beyond awesome. My apologies for resurrecting a tired old debate, but I had to get an opinion from a higher authority, which are you guys!

Comical, pragmatic, insightful...thanks for the responses!

I will hang my head high.
 
Revvy said:
Ask Forrest if their extract at Austin homebrew is fresh, or Northern Brewer or many many lhbs with high turnover.....that's kinda a moot point. Unless you're buying directly from the maltser your grain, you have just as much of a chance of not getting fresh grain from a store, as you are not getting fresh extract. There's no gaurantee how long that bag of two row or specialty grains has been sitting in the corner. In fact since more folks really do brew with extract than all grain, your chances are probably higher that the extract is fresher than the grain.

I frequented one store where I used to live, where maybe only a half dozen of us customers, and the owner were ag brewers, most everyone else who he sold to came in for extracts.

I kinda pushed him into starting to carry bulk grains, most of what he carried were pre measured packages of grain from Ld Carlson.

You can't really generalize these days that Extract isn't going to be fresh, or it's going to be in cans. That's really changed over the last decade.
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fair enough, but I'm sure there's a degree of freshness that comes from cracking/grinding the malt the day of, or day before you brew. again, like with coffee...it may have been roasted and packaged months ago, but grinding it up just before you brew it seems to release all the fresh aroma's that coffee doesn't have that's already ground and ready to brew when you buy it.

then again...maybe it's all in my head.


regardless, I still agree, good and bad brews can be made equally from extract and all grain.
 
Tell the arrogant A-HOLE to take a leap! I just brewed an extract (partial mash) that is very good. Otherwise everything I brew is all grain. The upside to all grain is that you are getting the malt from the source! Also more room to tweak recipes, and cheaper. The money you would save going all grain would pay for the cheap cooler MLT you can make in 1-2 brews. All grain is more work, but worth it. Another option is BIAB. Kind of the best of both worlds.

As in most things, it's the technique and person.

Example: A poor cook with the best ingredients doesn't equal a good meal. On the converse, a good cook with mediocre ingredients can make a fabulous meal.

What I have learned with brewing is temp control and sanitation are paramount. Attention to detail doesn't hurt either.
 
annasdadhockey said:
Not that I don't believe you, i've just never heard that. Do you have any examples?
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Why do you think Malt extract exists to begin with????You think there's enough of a homebrewing market to justify so many different extract manufactures? Maybe a little history of extract from BYO will give you an idea...

There's one thing for sure about malt extract - it's great stuff! History doesn't record the name of the 19th century brewmaster who first had the idea of concentrating and storing unfermented beer wort so the beer could be brewed at a later time, but he had a good idea. By changing malted barley into malt extract, a brewery could avoid problems with insects and mold and still store grain long past the harvest season. Also, concentrated malt extract was easier to ship to breweries located far from barley-growing areas.
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You might find this article from Brewing techniques inciteful...Great Commercial Beer from Malt Extract

Also this article from a Maltser who evidenlty sells to commercial breweries (as does LD Carlson and Premier Malt Company, so obviously if extract makers have commercial divisions SOME BREWERIES most be buying it, eh?

MALT EXTRACT: PRIDE and PREJUDICE

In a MR Wizard article in BYO he mentions that several GABF winners have been extract brewhouses.

Here's a small list of some commercial breweries who use extract that I gleaned from Probrewer.com and other forums where this got asked, including here.

Pacific Coast Brewing out of Oakland, CA.
The Granite City chain of brewpubs
Buffalo Brewpub in Williamsville is an Extract System.
Heinzelmannchen in Sylva, NC,
GG Brewers in suburban Philly
Put-In-Bay Brewing Company
Buffalo Brewpub
Mohegan Cafe and Brewery

Strangford Lough Brewing Company export extract and finishing hops to contract breweries to turn into beer.

A small Co Down brewery is targeting the US market and creating jobs despite the recession.

Killyleagh-based Strangford Lough Brewing Company plans to start malting northern barley and exporting a concentrated malt extract to licensees in the US to produce the finished beer for the American market.

The company is seeking to establish a chain of around 40 licensees across the US and said it was well on the way to doing so.
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There's a discussion in Rate beer that implies that Lagunitus might use BOTH hop and malt extract in their brews....I don't know for sure but they seem to have discussed it.

EDME, evidently sells extract to both commercial and microbrew trade/

Extracts

Edme's line of malt extract were designed with three scales of brewing in mind: commercial brewing, microbrewing, and home brewing. All are derived from UK-grown two-row barley or wheat processed at Edme's facilities in Mistley, England.

Commercial Brewery At the large-scale commercial level, Edme offers a series of products that can be used to adjust the color and character of a beer. Clarimalt range, malt syrup and dry malt extract: A very dark malt extract used to add roast malt flavors and color to any beer style pre- or post-fermentation. Available in 25-kg bags (dry weight) and in a syrup form in 13.5-kg and 25-kg bags.

Diastatic and nondiastatic malt syrups: These products range from very light to very dark and can be used for a variety of beer styles. The diastatic syrups range in diastatic power from 40 to 300 (degrees IOB). Specific details are supplied upon application. Available in 25-kg pails and 295-kg drums. The diastatic syrup is also available in 1-tonne (2200 U.S. lb) containers.

Tradimalt range, malt syrup: Used to enhance red notes in dark ales, ambers, etc. Available in 25-kg pails and 295-kg drums.

Microbrewery For the microbrewery sector, Edme supplies a separate series of products. The following extracts can be used as the complete wort or as individual adjuncts. All are available in 25-kg pails, 295-kg drums, or 1-tonne containers.

Ale: For ales and bitters. Unhopped.

Dark Ale: This extract has a high crystal malt content. Unhopped.

Light Ale: Used specifically for light beers and lagers. Unhopped.

Light Lager: Contains a glucose blend. Unhopped.

Pilsner: For lagers and Pilseners. Unhopped.

Stout: For stouts and porters. Unhopped.

Wheat: For wheat beers. Contains 40% barley and 60% wheat. Unhopped.

Home Brewery Edme's range of malt syrup beer kits for home brewers, Microbrewery Series, are derived from UK-grown two-row barley and/or wheat.

Amber: Used for bitters and ales. Unhopped. Available in 3.3-lb cans.

Classic Pilsner: Used for Pilsener or lager beers. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Dark: Used for ale, porter, stout, and Bock beer styles. Unhopped. Available in 3.3-lb cans.

English IPA: Used for India pale ale. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Extra Stout: Used for Irish extra stout. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Light: Used primarily for light beers. Unhopped. Available in 3.3-lb cans.

Maris Otter Light: An unhopped light malt syrup extracted exclusively from floor-malted Maris Otter premium two-row barley. Available in 3.3-lb cans and larger sizes.

Original Draught: Used for draught lagers. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Red Ale: Used for red ales. Contains a glucose blend and hops. Available in 4-lb cans.

Wheat Beer: Used for Weizen beer and Hefeweizen. Comprises 60% barley and 40% wheat. Available in 4-lb cans.
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If there were no commercial breweries using extract, why would all these companies have commercial divisions.

Another thing folks don't seem to consider- they quote economics, how expensive extract is...It's expensive for homebrewers, but just how expensive is it for a commercial microbrewry or brewpub, paying wholesale and getting it delivered in tanker trucks or drums? It may be more costo effective for some smaller breweries, they don't need extra space to handle the mashing of grains, all they need are kettles and fermenters.

Oh and several sources including this one state that Chimay used (or uses) some malt extract.

These are the same as those listed on the label of one of the Brewery's three main beers, Chimay Triple (former White). The other two main beers, Chimay Red (Rouge) and Chimay Blue (Bleue), additionally have malt extract declared as an ingredient. For further information on Chimay Dorée, see below. Well, this was the ingredients disclosure for 2004 and earlier bottlings, but, amazingly, for the 2005 ones, the following are declared for Chimay Red and Blue: water, malted barley, wheat, sugar, hops and yeast....
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And this one...

Malt extract, a material generally only used by beginners to home brewing, was introduced in 1994, according to Chimay, but only at a level of 0.1%. It is used in Chimay Red and Blue, but not the Triple (White), to compensate for variations in colour between each brew. Note that once a feed hopper is installed which will allow the segregation of Caramalt, the malt responsible for the colour of Chimay Red and Blue, malt extract will no longer be used in the brews and will thus not appear on the labels. On the visit, I asked Chimay why they do not correct the wheat starch error on the labels. They stated that they were afraid that people would assume that they had changed the recipe again, so they were reluctant to do this.
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(It is interesting to see how many folks will say "back in the day" chimay tasted better than it does now, and are really talking about the '90's, when it contained malt extract?)

Oh and so does Guinness...;)

The second and most surprising point is the following

“Today at St. James’s Gate, Roast Malt Extract (RMX) and Mature High Gravity extract (MHG) are used in the brewing of Foreign Export Stout, draught Guinness, and Guinness Export Stout … What is common to all Guinness stout brewed in any location is the inclusion of dark RMX … and MHG”

–stated plainly by a retired Guinness employee

Translated that means that they no longer mash grain at the St. James Gate Brewery in Dublin. They take the extract that is created for use worldwide and use that to brew.
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Someone on an Irish homebrewing thread mentioned Guinness and malt extract as well.
Postby Guyzer » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:33 pm
Excellent that's me sorted to brew my first stout then. Also i'll be adding my secret stolen ingredient: Roast Malt Extract from St.james Gate (I am a technician in the brewery)hehehe.
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Doing all grain just mean you dont have a job to keep you busy...
Ekstract just means that you actually value your free time

PS I do all grain
 
There are some tings that can't be done as well using extracts, but they are few. For example, some styles require a VERY light color, and that is difficult to do, even with the tricks of the trade. OF course, unless you're planning to enter the beer into a BJCP style competition, color really doesn't matter much, either.

Also, if you want to make a VERY dry beer, that is hard to do with extract, since most extract is not mashed low enough to make it very highly fermentable.

But all in all, you can can do almost everything, and usually quicker and easier than with AG. And if you have enough experience, you can make extract beer that rivals some of the best AG beer. AG is not a silver bullet that makes you a better brewer and makes your beer suddenly taste wonderful. There are at least as many pitfalls awaiting the AG brewer that they have to be aware of.

That said, I REALLY enjoy brewing AG more. I'd do extract if I were short on time, and I could make myself pay the extra cost...
 
i enjoy the longer brewdays of AG, but when i don't have time for that i still brew extract. honestly once i'm drinking them i don't think about weather they're extract or not.
 
Despite my opinion that every brewer should do as they please, my personal opinion is go all grain or go buy beer. Everyone has their own opinion of what "from scratch" means and for me it's making Maltose from starch. Reconstituing wort from concentrate is too far onto the Betty Crocker side of things for me. No one should get their boxers in a bunch over this though because brewing methods and equipment are a very personal thing so don't worry about what other people say.
 
Im all for using extract. I prefer partial myself but theres nothing wrong with extract. for one u have to buy extra equipment which takes up space. And if your like me it takes more time which I dont have alot of because school and work. If these arent a factor for you then go all grain but id rather save time with partial.
 
I have been brewing for a little over a year now. I started with all grain because I have a friend who is a professional brewer and that is how I learned. I do not feel that extract brewing is inferior, I just have never done it. Anyone who wants to give someone a hard time for doing what they do is a ******. Period.
 
I have brewed over 70 batches but yet to do all grain. Most are PM. Even done a turbid mash with some extract for a sour batch. The only reason I haven't gone AG is that for 3 yrs I've been designing, acquiring parts and building my single tier system. Underemployement and a baby have slowed progress but the end is in sight!
 
These elitist attitudes always piss me off and unfortunately are sometimes perpetuated by some of the higher ups. Case in point, I just started reading Gordon Strong's new book and early on he talks about how he won't be discussing extract brewing because it's the same as making cool aide. That really set me off. The other thing I don't get is why he'd want to alienate such a large faction of the brewing community. I can't remember the exact number but I thought it was somewhere north of 80% of home brewers are extract. That's also where most people start out and may decide not to move on in the hobby due to time or money issues.

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk
 
Ultimately as a talented beer CONSUMER (not brewed beer yet, but hope to), I have to say if you sat two bottles in front of me and asked which I liked better, I would drink both beers, and tell you. The one I liked better I would ask what was in it, just for my information. At the end of the day, a "weak" beer is one I dont care for, not one brewed using extract, metalurgy or necromancy.

Same goes for when I was really interested in cigars. I had a guy tell me "Jimmy, at the end of the day, its all about smoking the damn cigar. Being a snob is just going to get you broke, not get you better cigars."

And finally, my mother-in-law to be made one of the top 10 meals I have ever tasted in my life. When I asked for the recipe I saw that instead of pure butter or my beloved olive oil she had browned her onions in margerine. Yes, margerine. My snobbery got me schooled that day.
 
Gordon's book has been discussed quite a bit regarding that bit but he just chose to focus on the type of brewing he does. I don't see it as alienating but rather as clearly explaining where his focus is. In a way, I have the opposite criticism of Brewing Classic Styles in the way that it lists all grain versions of the recipes as afterthoughts or modifications.

I think homebrewing is the only hobby where people feel like the shortcut methods need to be protected from criticism. If you write a cook book, you don't talk about how to integrate Ragu sauce into your ravioli recipe. On a book about award winning BBQ, they don't talk about which commercial BBQ sauce or liquid smoke is best.

I don't think it's necessarily an insulting thing to say that extract brewing is taking a short cut to what is otherwise a very traditional process taken by the commercial guys.

Extract brewing is how almost everyone gets into the hobby and usually those who stick to it are in some restrictive situations that prevent them from going all grain. However, no matter how you slice it, all grain is how beer is made. If you want to experience the hobby to its fullest, including all the pain in the ass science that comes along with it, soak some frickin grain in water for an hour and stop whining.
 
Bobby_M said:
Gordon's book has been discussed quite a bit regarding that bit but he just chose to focus on the type of brewing he does. I don't see it as alienating but rather as clearly explaining where his focus is. In a way, I have the opposite criticism of Brewing Classic Styles in the way that it lists all grain versions of the recipes as afterthoughts or modifications.

I think homebrewing is the only hobby where people feel like the shortcut methods need to be protected from criticism. If you write a cook book, you don't talk about how to integrate Ragu sauce into your ravioli recipe. On a book about award winning BBQ, they don't talk about which commercial BBQ sauce or liquid smoke is best.

I don't think it's necessarily an insulting thing to say that extract brewing is taking a short cut to what is otherwise a very traditional process taken by the commercial guys.

Extract brewing is how almost everyone gets into the hobby and usually those who stick to it are in some restrictive situations that prevent them from going all grain. However, no matter how you slice it, all grain is how beer is made. If you want to experience the hobby to its fullest, including all the pain in the ass science that comes along with it, soak some frickin grain in water for an hour and stop whining.
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+1.....I do have a cookbook called the 3 Ingredient cookbook where you use 3 "prepared" ingredients such as Ragu. Nice for quick meals but......am I really cooking or just opening cans? I guess we could even take it a step further. How about extract vs. no boil canned kits with pre hopped extract? They both make "beer".
 
Like I said though, everyone's got their cutoff somewhere. I personally don't think you have to grow your own barley to be a brewer. That would be growing. If you malt barley yourself, you're a maltster. If you mash malted barley to create wort, you're a brewer (and perhaps a distiller). If you use extract, technically the maltster and you form a brewing team. I don't know, where does extract production end and brewing begin? It really doesn't matter. If you enjoy what you're doing, whatever its called, cool, enjoy.
 
I have no problem with Gordon defining the scope of his book as advanced all grain and no extract. I just feel that statement was elitist and insulting. As for BCS, I like the fact it lists both recipes and don't care if extract comes first. Generally as an AG brewer, I'll design my recipes anyway and not just cookbook it but use them and the style books as a starting point.

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk
 
I think the other thing to consider is look at competition results. I just got the Zymurgy that has all the NHC winners in each category. It lists the recipe for each winner and they are all all grain. If there is no difference in quality of beer between extract and all grain why bother? Well......because there is a difference.
 
Avery talks about using extract in the Maharaja because they can't fit all the necessary grain into their mash tun. I heard it on some CYBI show interviewing the brew master...
 
I remember reading that at some of these big competitions,extract beers have won the top prize. So it can be done when one gets some experience. Not to mention hitting on that one great idea. Good beers can be made either way,& combining different extracts (besides merely LME/DME),could make all the difference.
It just comes down to what level is fun & rewarding for you? How much $,time,research do you wanna put into it? Or maybe you just wanna brew clones of craft brews you like. It's all good,why we're all here,it's why we brew beer & get buzzed. More of us than there is of them......!!? No heart or soul,but at least we're machines...stop the machine...machinemachinemachine...
 
Phunhog said:
I think the other thing to consider is look at competition results. I just got the Zymurgy that has all the NHC winners in each category. It lists the recipe for each winner and they are all all grain. If there is no difference in quality of beer between extract and all grain why bother? Well......because there is a difference.
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There very well could be a difference when a person's experience level reaches a certain point, and they can control their process to a certain degree. And I'm not picking on extract brewer when I say that.

But I think that by the time many extract brewers are experienced enough to make very good extract beer, they have already moved on to AG brewing.

And in addition, I think that people who stick with extract brewing because it's easier, probably aren't ambitious enough to work toward that extra step and submit beer into major competitions. They may prefer to brew their beer at home and drink it, nothing more.

I'd be curious to see how many of the NHC winners modify their water. As a comparison, that is.
 
Homercidal said:
But I think that by the time many extract brewers are experienced enough to make very good extract beer, they have already moved on to AG brewing.
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Exactly. Are the best brewers, on balance, all grain brewers? Yes. Does all grain make them good? I doubt it because there is plenty of crap all grain beer being made.
 
HoosierDaddyBrew said:
Whats up with the WOW jab? Low blow bro...low blow :(
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Much as I'd love to come to the defense of WoW nerds, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason ;) I'm a fairly harcore WoW junkie, as is my wife. We're not living in a basement and we're not socially retarded...but we're in the minority. Need proof? Catch some Blizzcon video or stand in line for the next expansion. That being said, I have been pondering some "Beers of Azeroth" brews :mug:

As far as the extract vs AG debate - I honestly believe that the reason that AG is winning the awards is because the guys brewing it have "outgrown" extract and taken it to the next level. We do Extract, we're beginners and we have a lot to learn. When I can reliably crank out beers that taste the same way every single time, I'll think about graduating up. Until then, I'm all about the process, rather than the gear.
 
Aaah,here we go...South paw= dancin,banjo playin inbred freaks. Bambo said that in Deer Avenger,lolz. Some of us South paws do have artistic tendencies. It's even been mused upon in medical journal sort of reports.
I can't remember if it was last year,or the year before that I saw some pics somewhere of extract brews winning some big competitions.
Anyway,I think extracts are a good way to experiment,while learning processes & what works well together. When I come up with something unique & really good,I may enter it just to see what others think of it. Who knows?....
 
To be honest,I was hoping this Burton ale comes out good & enter it in a competition. It's my biggest beer to date. Certainly the most ambitious. I have revvy to thank for turning me on to another historical brew he'd never heard of. We'd been PM'ing about such things,And he just had to give me the link.
So,to honor such kindness,I did some research,& came up with the White Cougar Brewery example of the Burton Ale that was said to be dying as a style in 1890. That's some 3 years before my Grandmother was born,just for some perspective.
Revs,I may just send you a couple bottles for Christmas. If it's anything like my Whiskely ale,it'll take that long to be ready. We'll see.
It's a lot of fun trying to bring back an extinct brew. Odd though,that the lowest listed OG was some 1.080 to 1.085,but the ABV% was listed as 7-8%?...a #3 to Victorian standards.
By the way,it seems to me to fit into BJCP's "specialty/experimental/historical" category.?...
 
Taypo said:
Much as I'd love to come to the defense of WoW nerds, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason ;) I'm a fairly harcore WoW junkie, as is my wife. We're not living in a basement and we're not socially retarded...but we're in the minority. Need proof? Catch some Blizzcon video or stand in line for the next expansion. That being said, I have been pondering some "Beers of Azeroth" brews :mug:
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lol...me too...not saying how many 85's I have...lol. Beers of Azeroth sounds cool...I've thought of replicating the brews from the "brew of the month" club...lol.
 
I jumped to AG right away, but of the 1/2 dozen batches I've done, the one extract kit was probably the best - an Altbier. Who cares? Do what you want.
 
easier to brew good beer with extract? sure. but having control over "little things" like grain bill and mash temp? things that control your entire beer? priceless. sure, you can outsource it and make good beer. but i sorta agree with gordon strong. it's a lot closer to tv dinner.
 
Some of the upscale TV dinners are rather pricey. It's all in freshness of ingredients,& how well you use them that counts. Whether AG,extract,PM,etc.
 
JonM said:
You can make darn good beers with extract and it seems to me that lots of the top-notch brewers here sometimes brew with extract. Ignore that twitter twit who says otherwise.
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Don't have time to read through the entire thread but I have to agree with above post.
I have three kids 6 and underand subsequently don't have time to brew all grain So far extract tastes very very very tastey! I'd like to eventually get into brewing with AG but won't be switching anytime soon.
 
well...kinda. my point with the "tv dinner" thing wasn't that the ingredients are less fresh, you're just not able to take advantage of them in the same way. with extract, you're locked into what someone else has decided for you. if i walked into the kitchen and someone handed me a bowl of bread dough, told me to slap it into a pan and bake it, did i make bread? sort of. i'm not saying it doesn't take skill to extract brew or that you can't make good beer, just that you're "making it" a lot less than with other kinds of brewing.
 

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