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BrewIt

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I am new to electric brewing and have been doing a bunch of research and browsing the threads. I have a couple of questions.
Is it necessary to do a spa panel or can I just do a GFCI breaker in my main panel of my house? I know for most people it is more cost effective to do a Spa panel and have their control panel piggy back it. I don't have a 220v line running in my house yet anyhow. So my thought was just to do a GFCI breaker in my main house panel, run the line to an outlet, then have my control panel plug into that. Good or bad idea? I'm going to have more threads. Threads due to me being a newbie to electric. Thanks in advance for any help.

Forgot to ask also. What is the difference between 3 and 4 wire outlets for 220v. Is there any benefit to either? I'm just trying to do all of this stuff right.
 
I had room in my main panel in my garage for a GFCI breaker. I had an electrician run the line from my garage up through the attic and out to my lanai, where I brew. He installed a dryer outlet and I plug my electric control box for my brewery into that. Works great. You can see it in my build thread under my sig.

John
 
It should be fine as long as there's a gfci, but I'm curious about what other people think of this. This is pretty much what I'm going to do. I've got a dryer outlet with a 30amp breaker. I'm just going to swap a gfci breaker in there and use the outlet.
 
Thanks for responses guys. I figure the less clutter the better. I have to put in a breaker and run a line anyway. Why not just do it at the source.
 
From what I've read I'm going to need a 50a breaker. I'm going to be running 2 elements and pumps.
 
jddevinn said:
A spa panel + a regular 30a 240v breaker are generally cheaper than a 30a 240v GFCI breaker
Click to expand...

True. A 30a 240v gfci breaker runs about $80. But how do you get gfci protection to your 240v elements without one?
 
Generally believed the spa panel is cheaper. I found ge gfci breaker cheap at local electric supply store. Make no mistake this stuff will have some expense to it. My plan was initially to brew in laundry room with a big run. But ultimately decided to just put a plug outside figuring with a long enough cord I could brew anywhere. That remains true but have yet to buy/make long cord.
 
jddevinn said:
Bass, you 100% need GFCI.

I couldn't find a 30a 240 GFCI breaker locally and had to order for about $100.

A Spa Panel can be had for <$70 and placed inline with a breaker $10 30amp breaker for cheaper than buying a in panel GFCI. Not much cheaper but that's why it's popular.
Click to expand...

Oh. Thanks for that clarification. That could be a better option for me as well since I could use the panel on any 240 outlet. I could bring my kettle to a friend's house for a brew session of I wanted and not worry about whether he has a gfci outlet.
 
BrewIt said:
I am new to electric brewing and have been doing a bunch of research and browsing the threads. I have a couple of questions.
Is it necessary to do a spa panel or can I just do a GFCI breaker in my main panel of my house? I know for most people it is more cost effective to do a Spa panel and have their control panel piggy back it. I don't have a 220v line running in my house yet anyhow. So my thought was just to do a GFCI breaker in my main house panel, run the line to an outlet, then have my control panel plug into that. Good or bad idea? I'm going to have more threads. Threads due to me being a newbie to electric. Thanks in advance for any help.

Forgot to ask also. What is the difference between 3 and 4 wire outlets for 220v. Is there any benefit to either? I'm just trying to do all of this stuff right.
Click to expand...

Regarding 3 vs 4 wire, the 4 wire configuration will bring a neutral into your panel. That'll allow you to run 120v devices such as lights and pumps. You can easily source 240v led panel lights but pumps are different story. If you are only going to run a controller for an element you don't need 4 wire. But since you are planning on adding a new circuit and wire I would do 4 wire to allow for future expansion.
 
I agree with the 4-wire connector.

I like a GFCI in the breaker box. Even if it costs a few extra dollars, I think it's the cleanest way to do it. It's what I did (swapped a normal breaker with a GFCI one). Consider adding a cutoff switch at the connector so you can shut off all power easily.
 
WI_Wino said:
Regarding 3 vs 4 wire, the 4 wire configuration will bring a neutral into your panel. That'll allow you to run 120v devices such as lights and pumps. You can easily source 240v led panel lights but pumps are different story. If you are only going to run a controller for an element you don't need 4 wire. But since you are planning on adding a new circuit and wire I would do 4 wire to allow for future expansion.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the input. Much appreciated! I will need to do a 4 wire set up then because I definitely want to run pumps.
 
passedpawn said:
I agree with the 4-wire connector.

I like a GFCI in the breaker box. Even if it costs a few extra dollars, I think it's the cleanest way to do it. It's what I did (swapped a normal breaker with a GFCI one). Consider adding a cutoff switch at the connector so you can shut off all power easily.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more! I'll spend the extra $10 to make it look cleaner. Also I do plan on putting a cutoff switch on the panel. I think it is a good idea.
 
seabass07 said:
It should be fine as long as there's a gfci, but I'm curious about what other people think of this. This is pretty much what I'm going to do. I've got a dryer outlet with a 30amp breaker. I'm just going to swap a gfci breaker in there and use the outlet.
Click to expand...

I did this - a 30A GFCI breaker for my panel was the same price as a spa panel, and this saves a power cord and connector pair, as I can plug the control panel straight into the 4 wire dryer socket, rather than having an extra cable from the spa panel to control panel.
 
The advantages to the spa panel that I can think of:
1) Usually less expensive than a GFCI breaker alone
2) If you make it pluggable, it is portable
3) If you make it pluggable, you are not modifying your house wiring (not applicable if you need to run a new circuit anyway)
4) If you already have a H-H-N circuit, you can employ the 3 in, 4 out trick (but make it pluggable because that does not conform to code)
5) It can give you a shutoff closer to the brew panel if far away from the main breaker panel

If none of those apply or are important to you, there is no compelling reason to use the spa panel. :)
 
I'm in the process of building my panel. I'm going to have 2 5500 watt elements also a 2 outlet 110v for 2 chugger pumps. I don't believe I will have both elements firing at 1 time. Probably just an element and a pump. Long story short. What size GFCI breaker should I get? Also I'd like to put a circuit breaker for each element within the panel and 1 for the 110v outlet. Will 2 25 amp breakers be adequate for the elements? I would also think a 10 amp breaker would be adequate for the 110v outlet for the pumps.
 
jeffmeh said:
4) If you already have a H-H-N circuit, you can employ the 3 in, 4 out trick (but make it pluggable because that does not conform to code)
Click to expand...

Im not sure what this "trick" is, but if you are suggesting that you can convert two hots and a neutral to two hots a neutral and a ground you are grossly mistaken and that is very dangerous.
 
CU_tony said:
Im not sure what this "trick" is, but if you are suggesting that you can convert two hots and a neutral to two hots a neutral and a ground you are grossly mistaken and that is very dangerous.
Click to expand...

Please explain why you believe this to be very dangerous. Thanks.
 
jeffmeh said:
Please explain why you believe this to be very dangerous. Thanks.
Click to expand...

While neutral and ground are bonded at some point they should only be bonded at one point. Grounded appliances are typically have their chassis bonded to ground and in your scenario that is also neutral. If there is any issue with the neutral leg you have a hot leg with no where to go but neutral/ground/chassis.

While electrical code may be confusing and a PITA, it is in place for a very good reason, your safety and anyone else who may be in close proximity to your appliance.

I would love to hear a rationalization for why this is an acceptable practice though.
 
The earth/safety ground does two things.

First, it ensures all exposed metal in a device (panel case, pot, etc) is grounded, so that if a live wire inside (black or white) detaches and touches metal, the breaker or GFCI will trip. A wire detaching is considered, in risk parlance, a "probable" thing. It's gonna happen.

You might think "hey, the white wire goes back to earth ground at the fuse box / grounding stake outside, it's just as good, right?" But in the case that you just ground everything with the white neutral wire, what happens when the return wire inside the box, the one that was ground and attached to the white, detaches and contacts metal? Remember, regardless what you think, it's probable that it will happen. If you don't have a safety ground, NOTHING HAPPENS UNTIL YOU TOUCH METAL. ZAP. So, the SECOND thing a safety ground does is a redundant safety device. If you have the safety ground attached to metal, then it would require TWO FAULTS to cause a hazard: a loose live wire, AND a loose safety ground. That is considered improbably (in risk parlance).

Finally, if you use a neutral as the safety ground, and there is current running on it (which is likely if there's any 120V devices in your box), then you will have some voltage on your "grounded" metal. The voltage will be equal to the current times the resistance back to ground, and this can result in an AC voltage that you can feel, believe me. I had a toaster oven once...
 
passedpawn said:
The earth/safety ground does two things.

First, it ensures all exposed metal in a device (panel case, pot, etc) is grounded, so that if a live wire inside (black or white) detaches and touches metal, the breaker or GFCI will trip. A wire detaching is considered, in risk parlance, a "probable" thing. It's gonna happen.

You might think "hey, the white wire goes back to earth ground at the fuse box / grounding stake outside, it's just as good, right?" But in the case that you just ground everything with the white neutral wire, what happens when the return wire inside the box, the one that was ground and attached to the white, detaches and contacts metal? Remember, regardless what you think, it's probable that it will happen. If you don't have a safety ground, NOTHING HAPPENS UNTIL YOU TOUCH METAL. ZAP. So, the SECOND thing a safety ground does is a redundant safety device. If you have the safety ground attached to metal, then it would require TWO FAULTS to cause a hazard: a loose live wire, AND a loose safety ground. That is considered improbably (in risk parlance).

Finally, if you use a neutral as the safety ground, and there is current running on it (which is likely if there's any 120V devices in your box), then you will have some voltage on your "grounded" metal. The voltage will be equal to the current times the resistance back to ground, and this can result in an AC voltage that you can feel, believe me. I had a toaster oven once...
Click to expand...


The GFCI breaker kind of solves some of the problems of only having three wires. It monitors neutral current on the feeder. Losing that neutral should trip the breaker it the current goes anywhere but the 240V circuit. A leak to ground/neutral downstream should also trip the GFCI. If the GFCI breaker is functioning, it seems fundamentally safe but also somehow wrong.

AJ has written some good posts on the subject. He tends to go over my head but if he is against it....
 
I'm not going to do a spa panel. I need to run a 220 line anyhow. So I'm just going to do a 50a GFCI breaker in my main house panel. Thanks for looking out though craigmw.
 
I'm not seeing any 30a spa panels. Is there an issue running a 50a spa panel after a 30a breaker? I can't think of an issue with it, but maybe there's something I haven't thought of. It's going to be two separate 5500 elements that won't be running simultaneously.
 
seabass07 said:
I'm not seeing any 30a spa panels. Is there an issue running a 50a spa panel after a 30a breaker? I can't think of an issue with it, but maybe there's something I haven't thought of. It's going to be two separate 5500 elements that won't be running simultaneously.
Click to expand...

You should be fine. That's exactly what I'm doing.
 
I put a 60A 240V GFCI in my main breaker panel. It cost about $100, which was more than the spa panel by about $20. The spa panel breaker wouldn't have been compatible with my breaker box if i had just gutted it, and i would have had to run another circuit on a regular 60A breaker, which isn't free either.
 
I'm going to do a 50a 220v GFCI breaker in my main house panel. Run a 220v line to a 4 wire receptacle. Then have my control panel plug into that. Inside of my control panel I'll have 2 separate 30a breakers for each of my elements. This seems to make the most sense to me and be the cleanest way of doing it. I don't really care about saving $20 on a spa panel.
 
If you found a 50a GFCI breaker that fits your main panel for $80, that's a fine idea. My panel is a square D QO loadcenter and the GFCI to fit that runs about $150 unless you find a used one on ebay for $120.
 

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