Getting my Chloride and Sulfate levels where I want them then adding Baking Soda for pH?

[Gameface]

I've been reading water chemistry stuff all morning, so I'm sorry if I could have found the answer, I just haven't so far.

So basically, I'm fairly new to using RO water and adding back minerals. I have so far only used three different things, CaCl2, Gypsum and Baking Soda. Oh and Lactic Acid. So four things.

I start by entering CaCl2 and Gypsum amounts in Bru'nWater to get my Chloride and Sulfate ppms in the ballpark according to style. Then see where that gets me as far as Ph, then adding Lactic Acid if I need to bring pH down more. But in a Porter I found that after adding CaCl2 and Gypsum my pH was too low, so I added Baking Soda to bring it back up a little.

Question is this...

I understand you generally don't want to add things to acidify water just to then add something to reduce acidity, or vice versa. But in this example, where I do want to get certain levels of chloride and sulfate, it's fine to do that and then control pH by adding baking soda?

Is this the simplest approach? Is there anything "wrong" with what I'm doing?

Is there something else I should be doing?

 

[McKnuckle]

I pretty much do exactly as you do, and it does indeed work - no need to worry! I use gypsum and CaCl to adjust Ca, SO4, and Cl. If the pH needs to go down after that, I add lactic acid. If it needs to go up, I add baking soda. It's a great, simple approach that I rarely see others mention.

I never use epsom or table salts, lime, chalk, or any of that other stuff.

I think the criticism you're referring to is that some of the water tools seem to over-complicate mineral additions in order to match some arbitrary historical profile, which would be otherwise impossible to match with the simple approach we are employing. When doing that, it seems that quite a bit of add some, take away some math is required - but it's truly not necessary.

K.I.S.S. ftw

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Porters and Stouts often require a baking soda addition to bring the mash pH up and into the desired range.

 

[Gameface]

Thanks!

 

[bitteritdown]

You might be able to substitute some sodium chloride for calcium chloride thus not driving down your pH as much. Some sodium in darker beers is good.

 

[ajdelange]

So basically, I'm fairly new to using RO water and adding back minerals. I have so far only used three different things, CaCl2, Gypsum and Baking Soda. Oh and Lactic Acid. So four things.

I start by entering CaCl2 and Gypsum amounts in Bru'nWater to get my Chloride and Sulfate ppms in the ballpark according to style. Then see where that gets me as far as Ph, then adding Lactic Acid if I need to bring pH down more. But in a Porter I found that after adding CaCl2 and Gypsum my pH was too low, so I added Baking Soda to bring it back up a little.

Question is this...

I understand you generally don't want to add things to acidify water just to then add something to reduce acidity, or vice versa.

I don't see that you have added anything to acidfy your water. Calcium has a very small pH lowering effect but is usually hardly the major pH driver unless insane amounts are used (which they sometimes are).

But in this example, where I do want to get certain levels of chloride and sulfate, it's fine to do that and then control pH by adding baking soda?

You don't know that yet. To find out you have to brew the beer and experiment with the amounts of these that give you the result you like best. In particular there is the question of sulfate levels. Some people like tons of it in their beers. Others like as little as possible. You have to find out where you (or your 'customers' fall with respect to these extremes. You can get a rough idea by adding gyosum in small quantities to a finished beer. If you find adding some improves you enjoyment of the beer then you are doubtless a fan.

Is this the simplest approach? Is there anything "wrong" with what I'm doing?

It isn't likely that the calcium put the pH too low. Note here that most calculators use the old Kolbach formula that indicates that 3.5 mEq of calcium releases 1 mEq of hydrogen ions. A careful reading of his paper (I translated it from the German and missed this point!) reveals that this is at knockout. We can expect that the amount released is less that that in the mash. So if using a calculator (other than Kai Troester's - he's the one that pointed this out to me) be aware that the pH reduction from Calcium is probably too high.

Anyway, use the calcium salts to set the sulfate and chloride where you want them. If pH is too low raise it by adding a little alkali (baking soda), using less roast malt or using a more alkaline base malt.

Is there something else I should be doing?

You might want to look at the Primer for guidance on where to start. Note that the recommended additions are now half what the Primer suggests.

 

[Gameface]

So I'm using bru'n water and as I increase the CaCl the pH goes down. Are you telling me that is not a useful guide?

For this recipe, based on the use of chocolate malt and brown malt my pH was already (according to the spreadsheet) in a decent range, but as I added the CaCl and gypsum it went slightly low, 5.19.

I read the primer this morning.

where can I find Kai Troester's calculator? **unless it's not easily findable via a google search no need to answer, I'll find it.**

Thank you very much for your response!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A.J. keeps forgetting that my calculator also allows for the tuning (via buffering adjustment) of the impact of mineralization upon downward pH shift, and that even if set at its maximum it does not allow for the full Kolbach impact. Kai's calculator is not the only game in town. It is however hampered greatly by basing its pH shift output upon the SRM of the final beer, rather than the Lovibond of the individual grist components.

If individual Lovibond is a relatively poor choice (such as it is) for determining pH shift, then overall SRM is a seriously poor choice.

 

[ajdelange]

Indeed I did but folks with my extensive TOE consider themselves lucky if they can remember what day of the week it is.

That aside, it occurred to me that you should be able to 'fool' any of the spreadsheets that don't allow adjustment or have the 3.5 factor built in into giving you the right answer by telling them that you have half the calcium you actually do. This throws other calculations off, of course, but put in half, record the pH shift and then put the correct value back in for everything else.