Gelatin and IPAs

[Ilan34]

You didn't boil the hops to sanitize? Infected & ruined. Kidding.

One possible explanation for "restarting fermentation" is simply the release of CO2. The fine particles of pellet hops act as nucleation sites and can cause fizzing & release of residual CO2. So if you didn't degas your first hydrometer sample, it's possible it was propped up a few points by the bubbles; so now, this new sample with reduced CO2 content reads lower.

Interesting theory. I could accept that. That does make it tough to determine if I'm at FG after dry hopping, though. Maybe I'll take another reading as soon as I get home and then crash it and try to get in a bottle session tomorrow night. Is a 27 hour cold crash worth it?

Definitely do not want to risk bottle bombs. We have a unique living situation, as well as an 18 month old. Aside from the physical risk, I have a feeling that SWMBO might try to put an end to this hobby if that happens. No room to keg unfortunately.

 

[billl]

"Going to take another reading tonight because I'd love to crash it tomorrow and bottle on thursday. Otherwise I won't have another chance to bottle until next Tuesday. Hesitant to leave it with the dry hops that long, it's already been 7 days today."

Do NOT bottle until the gravity stops dropping. If you didn't bag the hops, you can just rack to another fermenter and let it sit until you can confirm it has reached FG.

 

[Ilan34]

Do NOT bottle until the gravity stops dropping. If you didn't bag the hops, you can just rack to another fermenter and let it sit until you can confirm it has reached FG.

Strongly considering that. I've never racked to secondary. Is it advisable to cold crash first? Or is that a bad idea seeing as it may keep fermenting in secondary (if that is in fact what's happening, rather than it being a CO2 issue)?

 

[TyTanium]

What yeast, what temp, and how long has it been in there?


FWIW, I wouldn't worry about going long with the dry hops. And if you're cold crashing, it'll be totally fine to go longer.

 

[Ilan34]

What yeast, what temp, and how long has it been in there?

FWIW, I wouldn't worry about going long with the dry hops. And if you're cold crashing, it'll be totally fine to go longer.

WLP001. Fermented at 66 for 3 days, 68-70 the rest. Been in primary for 22 days.

 

[thisisbeer]

I wouldn't cold crash you would stop a fermentation that could start back up later in the bottle. Just rack and let it finish out if it is fermenting again. It could be the CO2 like stated earlier but you wont know until the gravity stops changing. I would say leave it and see if it stops then cold crash or rack and then cold crash after it stops.

 

[TyTanium]

22 days? No way it's not done unless it's infected. My concern with racking to secondary is oxygen - oxidized hops taste terrible. If it were me, I would cold crash tonight with gelatin, and bottle when I had a chance. But you have plenty of options to choose from.

 

[PseudoChef]

i feel like both the worst and the very best IPAs are cloudy. and that crystal clear IPAs are generally pretty good.

Pretty much. I like that everyone wants to cite Heady as being cloudy but doesn't give mention to PtE, which is fined with gelatin at the brewpub.

Yes, it all comes down to personal preference. However, I do agree with what Ty said earlier on cutting down on some of the harsh hop profile (and likewise, the bitter yeast bite). I don't think clarity and taste should be separated, because the former should most certainly affect the latter. If you're pouring me a glass of yeast or one filled with murky-protein solution, chances are it's not going to be tasty. On the same page, however, it doesn't need to be crystal clear.

 

[Yooper]

Pretty much. I like that everyone wants to cite Heady as being cloudy but doesn't give mention to PtE, which is fined with gelatin at the brewpub.

Yes, it all comes down to personal preference. However, I do agree with what Ty said earlier on cutting down on some of the harsh hop profile (and likewise, the bitter yeast bite). I don't think clarity and taste should be separated, because the former should most certainly affect the latter. If you're pouring me a glass of yeast or one filled with murky-protein solution, chances are it's not going to be tasty. On the same page, however, it doesn't need to be crystal clear.

I agree!

There is a difference between a slight hops haze, or a bit of yeast sediment in the bottle, and a murky beer. I"ve been served some positively murky homebrews, and while they might taste ok to the brewer, I prefer them clear or with a slight hops haze!

 

[Ilan34]

Oh my god, too many options, haha. Ok, here's the plan.

Gravity tonight. If it hasn't dropped again, I'll cold crash, do gelatin tomorrow night, and bottle on thursday. That's the preferred plan!

If it's still dropping, I'll transfer to secondary and take another reading on thursday night. If it's stable, I'll cold crash until Sunday (going to be away from Friday to Sunday afternoon), do gelatin, and bottle on Tuesday.

Argh. Is this a common problem with dry hopping? From now on I'll be sure to degas all my samples. Is there a standard best way to do so?

Thanks again guys!

 

[TyTanium]

Just spin your hydrometer when testing to knock off the bubbles. Not sure if that's what was going on here, just a guess.

 

[Ilan34]

I always spin the hydrometer, doesn't seem to make a difference in the reading.

 

[TyTanium]

I always spin the hydrometer, doesn't seem to make a difference in the reading.

Huh. Well then maybe it is still dropping. That's odd.

 

[Ilan34]

Huh. Well then maybe it is still dropping. That's odd.

Faaaaaaack me, lol

 

[Ilan34]

I don't think clarity and taste should be separated, because the former should most certainly affect the latter. If you're pouring me a glass of yeast or one filled with murky-protein solution, chances are it's not going to be tasty. On the same page, however, it doesn't need to be crystal clear.

So does chill haze affect flavor or not? I've read conflicting views.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

So does chill haze affect flavor or not? I've read conflicting views.

By most accounts no, but what it may affect is mouthfeel. And you always taste with all your senses, so if something doesn't look good you're going to be prejudiced to it's flavor.

But some of the best beers I've had haven't looked good

This is Carton's 07747 a special beer dry hopped with Galaxy Hops

Not clear, extremely tasty.

 

[Ilan34]

Ok. Took a gravity. It's down to 1.012. All right. Transfer to secondary. Attach hop sack to siphon and pump it... where the hell are all these bubbles coming from?!

Yeah. Took me until the end to realize that the sack was probably pulled too tight against the siphon. I oxidized that baby like nobody's bidness.

So, how screwed is this? How long does it take oxidized flavors to show up? If it all gets drunk four or five weeks from now, will it be alright? (this is assuming it's not infected. Still have to get a stable reading.)

Oy.

 

[thisisbeer]

It is really easy to oxidize IPA's. Vinnie with Russian River goes as far to say to flush carboys and kegs with CO2 and anything else you move your IPA to. I don't know how big a difference it makes to do that. But I do know that when I started using a stainless steel dry hopper in the keg it made a noticeable difference in aroma. After I put the hops in I can flush with CO2 and I believe it made a difference. So I would think you oxidized it pretty good.

 

[PseudoChef]

So does chill haze affect flavor or not? I've read conflicting views.

It all depends on how bad it is.

 

[m3n00b]

Ok. Took a gravity. It's down to 1.012. All right. Transfer to secondary. Attach hop sack to siphon and pump it... where the hell are all these bubbles coming from?!

Yeah. Took me until the end to realize that the sack was probably pulled too tight against the siphon. I oxidized that baby like nobody's bidness.

So, how screwed is this? How long does it take oxidized flavors to show up? If it all gets drunk four or five weeks from now, will it be alright? (this is assuming it's not infected. Still have to get a stable reading.)

Oy.

Drink it fast. Drink it fresh. Bottled my last IIPA 2 weeks ago and almost done with a case.

 

[Cider123]

I once started a thread about liking cloudy beer. That the appearance of cloudiness gave me an impression of richness or substance. Perhaps due to my love for wheats and hefe's. I just used gelatin for the first time on a bitter and it came out crystal clear and tasted very nice. I was so proud of the crystal clarity, I started showing it off to anyone that came by for a beer. I thought it wouldn't matter to me, but it did. I will be using gelatin on top of whirlfloc and cold crashing for now on, at least with beers that are not meant to be cloudy like hefe's. I like clear beer!

The discussion on flavor stripping by gelatin just seems like the starts of another unsubstantiated rumor or old wives tale that clutters up the hobby. Maybe if some real experimentation is done, it may begin to convince me.

 

[TyTanium]

What was your rationale for racking it? Why not just leave it? I've noticed oxidized hops within a week or two.

It all depends on how bad it is.

Agreed. A slight chill haze or hop haze doesn't seem to taste any different than a bright beer to me. But I've had some murky hoppy beers that have been harsh and awful. That never aged out.

 

[progmac]

The discussion on flavor stripping by gelatin just seems like the starts of another unsubstantiated rumor or old wives tale that clutters up the hobby. Maybe if some real experimentation is done, it may begin to convince me.

Split a batch with a friend, one gelatin, one not. There is a difference.

 

[freisste]

Split a batch with a friend, one gelatin, one not. There is a difference.

Between two beers of equal clarity, one which used gelatin and one that was just cold crashed?

Because if the difference is just more suspended yeast, that can be cold crashed out. I'm not saying there is no difference, but it is hard for me to believe and I have not seen it.

 

[TyTanium]

Between two beers of equal clarity, one which used gelatin and one that was just cold crashed?

Because if the difference is just more suspended yeast, that can be cold crashed out. I'm not saying there is no difference, but it is hard for me to believe and I have not seen it.

In my experience, yes. Gel strips some of the harsher hop flavors and leaves a more pleasant hop character to me. I feel like a dead horse here.

This is one of those things you just have to try and decide what you like. If you bottle you can do a split comparison super easy - add half of the gel halfway through bottling; so half you batch gets it, half doesn't. See what you like. I'm sold on gel for hoppy beers, doesn't mean you will be.

 

[progmac]

Between two beers of equal clarity

well, no. the gelatin beer is more clear. isn't that the point of using it?

ty is right though, you have to set up experiments for yourself where you are comfortable with the experiment design. a gelatin experiment is fairly trivial, just decant a gallon, use some gel, and compare it to the control

i meant to provide more detail in my post above, but HBT was wigging out on me. there were some confounding issues and it wasn't a great experiment, but it has me at least preliminarily open to the idea that gelatin strips aroma to some degree.

 

[Ilan34]

What was your rationale for racking it? Why not just leave it? I've noticed oxidized hops within a week or two.

Well, to be honest, I received some very upsetting news recently and may not have thought this through to the best of my ability. My rationale was to get it off the dry hops. I thought I could do it without oxidizing, but I made a dumb mistake with the hop bag. It wasn't my first time siphoning with a hop bag, but I guess I was just rushing and had a brain fart.

If I'd happened to be racking to the bottling bucket instead of secondary, it would have still oxidized, so I can take solace in that I suppose.

 

[TyTanium]

Well, to be honest, I received some very upsetting news recently and may not have thought this through to the best of my ability. My rationale was to get it off the dry hops. I thought I could do it without oxidizing, but I made a dumb mistake with the hop bag. It wasn't my first time siphoning with a hop bag, but I guess I was just rushing and had a brain fart.

If I'd happened to be racking to the bottling bucket instead of secondary, it would have still oxidized, so I can take solace in that I suppose.

Sorry to hear that. Brewing is continual learning. So don't beat yourself up. RDWHAHB. The points we've been discussing are for navigating between good beer and great beer, so you'll likely still have good beer. It's pretty hard to ruin a beer. And you learned some stuff for next time to make it a little better.

 

[Ilan34]

Sorry to hear that. Brewing is continual learning. So don't beat yourself up. RDWHAHB. The points we've been discussing are for navigating between good beer and great beer, so you'll likely still have good beer. It's pretty hard to ruin a beer. And you learned some stuff for next time to make it a little better.

Thank you, that's truly a nice response. This forum is the best. Thanks for all the advice, I'll keep the thread updated with how it turns out. Life can definitely put things in perspective - it's just beer.

 

[Ilan34]

Quick update: Gravity reading finally stable last night at 1.012. Cold crashing tonight, gelatin on Sunday, bottling on Tuesday. Might keep them in a box to protect against potential bottle bombs. Going to try it young, maybe only after two weeks in the bottle. Hope to avoid the oxidized flavors from taking hold.

I'm a little worried about it being carbed up that early, especially after adding gelatin. Would you guys suggest adding yeast to the bottling bucket?

 

[TyTanium]

I'm a little worried about it being carbed up that early, especially after adding gelatin. Would you guys suggest adding yeast to the bottling bucket?

Nope. Mine are usually carbed after a few days even with gelatin.

 

[Ilan34]

Nope. Mine are usually carbed after a few days even with gelatin.

Even for a 7% + abv? This one wound up at 7.2%.

 

[TyTanium]

I've never experienced it taking much longer with bigger beers.

 

[Ilan34]

Bottled tonight. Carbed to 2.5 volumes. Still had a massive fresh hop aroma in the bottling bucket, even after the gelatin. Beer is extremely clear, we'll see how it deals with the chill haze. Gonna put a couple in the fridge in two weeks. I didn't add any extra yeast, I hope this baby carbs up quickly!

 

[Ilan34]

Opened up a bottle of the IPA last night. It'd been conditioning for 15 days and then 3 days in the fridge. There was a small pfft when I opened it but it's got very little carbonation so far. On the other hand, it tasted amazing and I'm pretty sure that it will be my best beer yet when it carbs up!

However, I'm worried about the coming oxidation taste. How long until oxidized flavors show up, assuming the bottles are stored at about 68 degrees? I'm hoping that it carbs up before it goes to ****!

 

[MindenMan]

In my first year and a half of brewing, I made some incredible technical mistakes. Some of them obvious like gushers, some over flavored at bottling. In the following year and a half, (3 years total)
I have never had the oxidized "cardboard" flavor that I have tasted, but it could have been there. I guess my point is, try not to worry about something that may not happen. I still do stupid shi*, like swap the aroma hops for the bittering hops, not have enough ice on hand for cooling... I do hope you have no off flavors in your beer.

 

[Ilan34]

Another update. At four weeks in the bottle, it was mostly carbed up and tasted incredible. Definitely got exactly what I was looking for when I brewed it. Very possibly my favorite batch yet.

I was able to share it with three people. Went through 11 bottles. I had one last night and it was a totally different beer. All the good hop aroma and flavor had disappeared. The taste was very medicinal, bitter in a bad way and stale. I could only drink half. This had been in the bottle for five weeks and a day, and it'd been just over six weeks since I accidentally oxidized the hell out of it.

So I guess I have my answer as to how long it takes. Disappointed that I didn't drink it more quickly, but not surprised. Lesson learned!

 

[Ilan34]

Oh yeah, and the gelatin didn't clear it up all that much. Maybe my process is faulty?

I cold crash for a day at 36 degrees. Then I sanitize a glass container, add pre-boiled and cooled water (half a cup), stir in half a packet of Knox, and microwave it until it's between 150-160. Stir again, add to beer, and keep at 36 degrees for another 48 hours before bottling.

 

[TyTanium]

Oh yeah, and the gelatin didn't clear it up all that much. Maybe my process is faulty?

I cold crash for a day at 36 degrees. Then I sanitize a glass container, add pre-boiled and cooled water (half a cup), stir in half a packet of Knox, and microwave it until it's between 150-160. Stir again, add to beer, and keep at 36 degrees for another 48 hours before bottling.

Process sounds fine. Gelatin doesn't clear everything.

 

[RmikeVT]

Oh yeah, and the gelatin didn't clear it up all that much. Maybe my process is faulty?

I cold crash for a day at 36 degrees. Then I sanitize a glass container, add pre-boiled and cooled water (half a cup), stir in half a packet of Knox, and microwave it until it's between 150-160. Stir again, add to beer, and keep at 36 degrees for another 48 hours before bottling.

Dry hopping adds a lot of haze, known as hop haze. Whenever I make dipa and ipa that are heavily dry hopped, or even apa's that are dry hopped I always get a bit of haze, even with I use gelatin which I use on almost all my beers.