FYI, fermentors use butterfly gate valves not ball valves...

[brewman !]

I did a tour of a new brewery yesterday and observed that ALL the valves on their fermentation vessels (yeast and sampling) were of the butterfly (gate) valve variety, not the ball valve variety. This is for sanitation reasons.

The moving part on a ball valve looks like a ball with a hole drilled through it. The ball itself is larger than the diameter of the valve ports and is sealed into the valve body with seals on either side.

The moving part on a butterfly valve looks like a coin. It is very slightly larger than the valve port. It seals into the port by closing very tightly against it and the port itself is usually a seal type material.

Why does this matter ?

When you run liquid through a ball valve and then close it, some of the liquid is trapped in the hole in the ball, between the seals on either side. This provides an excellent space to harbor bacteria and nasties.

When you run liquid through a butterfly valve and then close it, there is no trapped liquid. On one side of the disk you have the wort or beer and on the other side you have air.

There is no way to clean the trapped ball valve cavity, short of disassembling the valve entirely. A gate valve can be sanitized on the fermentor by immersing or spraying the open end in a sanitizer.

I can think of 3 scenarios where valves are used on fermentors.

1) Filling with wort.

In this case wort is pumped through the valve into the fermentor. Yeast is then pitched and it ferments. The thing to remember here is that the cavity in the ball valve has wort trapped in it. It will NOT be exposed to the yeast, ie yeast will NOT provide competition to any organisms that it comes in contact with. If the trapped space is not 100% sterile, the trapped wort will become infected. If/when you open the ball valve, the fermenting wort is going to come into contact with the trapped wort.

2) Yeast harvesting.

When you dump yeast using a ball valve, yeast gets trapped in the cavity. If you dump yeast a second time, the wort is going to come into contact with trapped yeast, as will the he new yeast dump as well. If the yeast trapped in the ball valve cavity became infected or unhealthy between drops, it will contaminate the second yeast drop.

3) Sampling and then emptying.

By now this should be self explanitory.

I hope this illustrates why butterfly valves are superior to ball valves on fermentors.

 

[sudbuster]

I did a tour of a new brewery yesterday and observed that ALL the valves on their fermentation vessels (yeast and sampling) were of the butterfly (gate) valve variety, not the ball valve variety. This is for sanitation reasons.

The moving part on a ball valve looks like a ball with a hole drilled through it. The ball itself is larger than the diameter of the valve ports and is sealed into the valve body with seals on either side.

The moving part on a butterfly valve looks like a coin. It is very slightly larger than the valve port. It seals into the port by closing very tightly against it and the port itself is usually a seal type material.

Why does this matter ?

When you run liquid through a ball valve and then close it, some of the liquid is trapped in the hole in the ball, between the seals on either side. This provides an excellent space to harbor bacteria and nasties.

When you run liquid through a butterfly valve and then close it, there is no trapped liquid. On one side of the disk you have the wort or beer and on the other side you have air.

There is no way to clean the trapped ball valve cavity, short of disassembling the valve entirely. A gate valve can be sanitized on the fermentor by immersing or spraying the open end in a sanitizer.

I can think of 3 scenarios where valves are used on fermentors.

1) Filling with wort.

In this case wort is pumped through the valve into the fermentor. Yeast is then pitched and it ferments. The thing to remember here is that the cavity in the ball valve has wort trapped in it. It will NOT be exposed to the yeast, ie yeast will NOT provide competition to any organisms that it comes in contact with. If the trapped space is not 100% sterile, the trapped wort will become infected. If/when you open the ball valve, the fermenting wort is going to come into contact with the trapped wort.

2) Yeast harvesting.

When you dump yeast using a ball valve, yeast gets trapped in the cavity. If you dump yeast a second time, the wort is going to come into contact with trapped yeast, as will the he new yeast dump as well. If the yeast trapped in the ball valve cavity became infected or unhealthy between drops, it will contaminate the second yeast drop.

3) Sampling and then emptying.

By now this should be self explanitory.

I hope this illustrates why butterfly valves are superior to ball valves on fermentors.

Thanks for the great info. Cheers..

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Nice writeup! Butterfly valves aren't just nice bling.

 

[brewman !]

Thanks. I'm glad you found it useful.

What prompted me to write this up is that many home brewers are turning to conicals fermentors and equipping them with ball valves. They should really be equipped with butterfly valves.

 

[logdrum]

Not to be a nudge, but butterfly & gate are two separate types of valves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_valve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_valve

 

[LandoLincoln]

Thanks. I'm glad you found it useful.

What prompted me to write this up is that many home brewers are turning to conicals fermentors and equipping them with ball valves. They should really be equipped with butterfly valves.

Should be, sure. But on a homebrew practical level, how many batches have been ruined or changed by nasties stuck in ball valves? Is it worth the cost to go with a valve that's 8x the price of a ball valve?

 

[Bobby_M]

If the entire ball valve is cleaned and sanitized, the beer or yeast making it behind the ball wouldn't be tragic. The reason production breweries spend the money on butterflies, aside from the obvious financial risk of contamination, is that butterfly valves can be cleaned in place. In any case, if someone is willing to spend $500+ on a conical, what's another hundred?

 

[LordUlrich]

Yes breweries use butterfly valves. Butterfly valves can be cleaned in place, but are hard to find in small sizes. A 1 1/2 in valve is way too big for a 5 gallon fermenter.

 

[Weezy]

True on all points.... just not especially practical on the scale that 95% of use brew on.

 

[Roadliner]

I['ve seen as small as 3/4 in butterfly valves.. which sound great and all, but I wonder if their flow rate would just be too much for small batches, say 5-10 gallons. But I imagine you coulf put the 3/4 on there with a reduction down to 1/2" afterwards which would slow it down a little bit right?

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Yes you could. I use a 1.5" on the dump and a 1" on the racking port for my Brewhemoth. Works great for my 10+ gallon batches.

 

[Roadliner]

excelent. I might have to look into switching to that option from my ball valves.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I use a low pressure co2 push into a co2 purged keg. I throttle the flow just fine with the 1" butterfly.

 

[JKoravos]

When thousands of gallons of beer is dependent on the cleanliness of your process a few thousand bucks on a 4" sanitary butterfly isn't a big deal. For homebrewers it isn't really worth it.

I think plenty here realize that's what is used in commercial breweries but most never would have thought to bring it up because it's just not a meaningful factor in making great homebrew.

 

[StMarcos]

All my butterfly valves were cheaper than ball valves of the equivalent size.

 

[Roadliner]

All my butterfly valves were cheaper than ball valves of the equivalent size.

What kind do you have? / size?

 

[sandyeggoxj]

When thousands of gallons of beer is dependent on the cleanliness of your process a few thousand bucks on a 4" sanitary butterfly isn't a big deal. For homebrewers it isn't really worth it.

I think plenty here realize that's what is used in commercial breweries but most never would have thought to bring it up because it's just not a meaningful factor in making great homebrew.

I don't see many 4" butterfly valves around the breweries that I frequent...

 

[JKoravos]

I don't see many 4" butterfly valves around the breweries that I frequent...

What do you see?


Regardless, the point is that valve type is way down the list of important factors for homebrewers.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Mostly 1.5" and 2".

I use them in my brewery and they only cost around $50 each. Which isn't too bad. I have about 6.

 

[TennBrewer]

I'm missing something here. If wort is drained into the fermenter, wouldn't the entire tank be drained? Even if only partially drained, as in splitting the batch among multiple fermenters, why would there be wort left behind long enough to possibly infect the small amount trapped in the ball? The #1 rule in brewing is sanitation isn't it? After draining the tank, you clean it and sanitize it for the next batch. There shouldn't be anything trapped in the ball. I would think the main reason bigger breweries use butterfly valves, like stated earlier, they can be cleaned in place thus faster turnaround.

 

[Roadliner]

It's talking about why the fermentation is occurring IN the fermenters. If you take a sample out of it using the ball valve there will be wort left in the ball after shutting the flow off. Potentially leading to bacteria growth between samples taken.

 

[TennBrewer]

It's talking about why the fermentation is occurring IN the fermenters. If you take a sample out of it using the ball valve there will be wort left in the ball after shutting the flow off. Potentially leading to bacteria growth between samples taken.

Don't be silly. I don't believe they EVER take a sample through the valve, unless you want all the trub. There are openings at the top of the fermenters for that. Just go through a big brewery and see.

 

[Roadliner]

Did you read the OP?.. it says they have the butterfly valves for the sampling valves as well.. not just the trub dump. And the majority of the thread is speaking about the much smaller sizes home brewers use. Most home brewers use ball valves. Which DURING fermentation, if they take a sample through the ball valve will leave a small amount of liquid in the valve once it is closed off. This is the liquid in which it siggests there is a potential for bacteria growth. Thus bacteria being reintroduced to other liquid when the valve is again opened for another sample or to empty the fermenter.

 

[TennBrewer]

Did you read the OP?.. it says they have the butterfly valves for the sampling valves as well.. not just the trub dump. And the majority of the thread is speaking about the much smaller sizes home brewers use. Most home brewers use ball valves. Which DURING fermentation, if they take a sample through the ball valve will leave a small amount of liquid in the valve once it is closed off. This is the liquid in which it siggests there is a potential for bacteria growth. Thus bacteria being reintroduced to other liquid when the valve is again opened for another sample or to empty the fermenter.

Reread the OP, must've missed that, sorry.

 

[Roadliner]

no worries. In all honesty I don't think it's enough of an issue to really be concerned with considering the size batches most of us make. The incredibly small amount of liquid that could potentially be in that valve shouldn't do much. I would also think that if the valve was properly cleaned and sanitized before being filled.. and the outside port was also sanitized before opening it to take a sample or empty the unit.. the interior of the valve should be just as sanitary as the fermenter itself right?

And if it IS a concern.. wouldn't just dumping the first tbl spoon or so rid you of that worry? The pressure of the fermenting liquid exiting the valve should keep any nasties from making their way into the rest of the wart.

Still sounds cool to throw some Buttefly valves on there if you are looking to upgrade the your ferm setup though, lol.

 

[soonerpike1748]

The first time I cleaned and sanitized a three piece ball valve, I immediately jumped online and ordered butterfly valves for my conical. If I ever need ball valves for sanitary applications, I'd probably buy these: http://www.brewershardware.com/1.5-Tri-Clover-Tri-Clamp-Ball-Valve-Quick-Clean-TC15VBALLTAP.html

Looks like a great design for easy cleaning.

 

[StMarcos]

What kind do you have? / size?

1 and 1.5''. I've got them from both gvc.net and stpats.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

The first time I cleaned and sanitized a three piece ball valve, I immediately jumped online and ordered butterfly valves for my conical. If I ever need ball valves for sanitary applications, I'd probably buy these: http://www.brewershardware.com/1.5-Tri-Clover-Tri-Clamp-Ball-Valve-Quick-Clean-TC15VBALLTAP.html

Looks like a great design for easy cleaning.

But for $1 more you can get this: http://www.brewershardware.com/1-Tri-Clover-Butterfly-Valve-Squeeze-Trigger.html

That is the valve that I personally use on my racking/sample port of my conical. I throttle flow with it just fine.

And if you are spending $500 or more on a SS fermentation tank you might as well build it right. The cost to "upgrade" to a butterfly is usually 20% or less than a comparable ball valve.

 

[estricklin]

Not to be a nudge, but butterfly & gate are two separate types of valves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_valve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_valve

Thank you, the oilfield in me noticed that immediately!

Yes breweries use butterfly valves. Butterfly valves can be cleaned in place, but are hard to find in small sizes. A 1 1/2 in valve is way too big for a 5 gallon fermenter.

Your exactly right that butterfly valves aren't as common in smaller sizes. Also, as valves get bigger, the ball version actually tends to cost more, that's because they are rated for more pressure usually. I can't say on small butterfly valves, but for at least 3 inch and above there really is only a couple of manufacturers worth noting, and one of them in particular has the best product and almost a monopoly on the butterfly valve business. They are super handy in commercial applications because you can get generic flanges to mount them with too.

The butterfly valve will almost always fail before it's ball valve cousin. The rubber seat will wear out, or the stem will break, they also have the tendency to be misadjusted accidentally.

Butterfly valves are easier to operate, (physically I mean).

Thanks to the OP for pointing the issue out with the ball valves, as in certain situations I think it is worth considering.

Edit:

Oh and since we're talking valves, I would say for the homebrewer a brass needle valve seems like a pretty good solution for cost and cleanliness.

 

[barnaclebob]

I make sure to cycle my ball valves open and closed several times while water or sanitizer is flowoing through them for cleaning. I then leave them half cocked open to hopefully let the cavity dry. We'll see what effect this has whenever I get around to cleaning them.

 

[schematix]

I make sure to cycle my ball valves open and closed several times while water or sanitizer is flowoing through them for cleaning. I then leave them half cocked open to hopefully let the cavity dry. We'll see what effect this has whenever I get around to cleaning them.

I did the exact same thing as you, and the result was that the liquid remaining dried, and the ball valves became very difficult to actuate because there was crust right in the middle of the ball. I flush each valve both directions, opening and closing several times, but i leave the valve in the open position when done. Seems to work better.

 

[LandoLincoln]

The first time I cleaned and sanitized a three piece ball valve, I immediately jumped online and ordered butterfly valves for my conical. If I ever need ball valves for sanitary applications, I'd probably buy these: http://www.brewershardware.com/1.5-Tri-Clover-Tri-Clamp-Ball-Valve-Quick-Clean-TC15VBALLTAP.html

Looks like a great design for easy cleaning.

That is a good option and the price is pretty reasonable. Good find.

 

[soonerpike1748]

Brewers Hardware makes some great stuff. I've bought a lot of tri clamp parts from them.