Future Upgradability

[dipole]

I have wired up a spa panel running 240v 30amp from the dryer outlet. I am ready to start work on a control panel. I am seriously leaning toward getting a kit, or even having them (whoever them ends up being) building it for me.

I am 30 amp right now, but will be 50 amp in ~3 years which is when I plan on moving to a newer house (with a garage!).

Should I look at getting a 30amp capable control panel and upgrading when the time comes, or should I get a 50amp capable cp and knowing it's limitations and just run 1 element at a time, which is all I really need. Heat the HLT, and when that is done, switch to boil kettle.

 

[rgauthier20420]

If you can avoid buying things twice I'd go that route. It will effect parts and sizes of wiring right, but it seems more practical to go that route now. When you move into a new place with a 50amp circuit, your pretty much plug and play at that point and you won't need to rebuild/rebuy for a new panel.

 

[sennister]

Kind of depends on what you want. I just ordered my control panel kit. I, like you was going back and forth between if I wanted 30A or 50A.

For me I went with a BCS panel rather than PID. Because I will be largely controlling it from the computer, I didn't want to have to manually select the element. Of course this depends on what wiring schematic you go with if this is a problem. The other side was that I was looking at upgrading the contactors in the kit to the same ones that the 50A uses. In the end there wasn't a huge difference in cost so I went with the 50A.

The biggest advantage of a 50 is that you can do back to back brews. I don't plan on doing that much if at all. That said it would be nice to be able to use the HLT to heat some water for cleanup. I am brewing in the pole barn where I don't have a hot water source.

On top of buying new equipment which in the long run will just end up costing you more overall, but you may find that because of layout changes in going from 30-50 you may be rearranging your panel where you would possibly be looking at a new panel.

So in the end it just made sense to go 50 from the get go.

 

[dipole]

Kind of depends on what you want. I just ordered my control panel kit. I, like you was going back and forth between if I wanted 30A or 50A.

For me I went with a BCS panel rather than PID. Because I will be largely controlling it from the computer, I didn't want to have to manually select the element. Of course this depends on what wiring schematic you go with if this is a problem. The other side was that I was looking at upgrading the contactors in the kit to the same ones that the 50A uses. In the end there wasn't a huge difference in cost so I went with the 50A.

The biggest advantage of a 50 is that you can do back to back brews. I don't plan on doing that much if at all. That said it would be nice to be able to use the HLT to heat some water for cleanup. I am brewing in the pole barn where I don't have a hot water source.

On top of buying new equipment which in the long run will just end up costing you more overall, but you may find that because of layout changes in going from 30-50 you may be rearranging your panel where you would possibly be looking at a new panel.

So in the end it just made sense to go 50 from the get go.

I don't ever see myself doing back to back brews, kids and a wife pretty much rule that out. As far as running 2 elements, the only time I would see me doing that is right after vorlaufing and getting the boil going, though I batch sparge so it's not that big of a deal to wait until after I have the sparge water at correct temp. I could also do a mash out if need be.

I love the idea of a bcs, I think that's the route I'll go since I always have my laptop with me when I brew.

Hmmmm., decisions decisions.....

 

[sennister]

I don't ever see myself doing back to back brews, kids and a wife pretty much rule that out. As far as running 2 elements, the only time I would see me doing that is right after vorlaufing and getting the boil going, though I batch sparge so it's not that big of a deal to wait until after I have the sparge water at correct temp. I could also do a mash out if need be.

I love the idea of a bcs, I think that's the route I'll go since I always have my laptop with me when I brew.

Hmmmm., decisions decisions.....

This is the kit I went with.

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/complete50bcs.html

I am doing a HERMS configuration and I will have to see how much of a problem it is. Ideally I would want to hold the BK wort at 180 or so as I am sparging. Not sure how big of a deal it would be to hold the HLT at the proper temp and the BK at the same time with 30A. It won't work if you do an element select.

Another option is to go with a 50A panel. For now go with slightly smaller elements. While it will add a bit of time to your temp changes, I was shocked at what the difference was. I want to say to bring 6 gallons from 180 to boil with a 4500W element it is 7 minutes where a 5500W is 5 minutes. 2 minutes isn't that big of a deal. You could always give the BK a shot of heat every now and then while sparging.

I work in IT so I always have a computer as well. I am adding some manual push button inputs to step through the process. This way I can use the laptop or connect it to a larger display (TV) and use that.

My main reason for doing 50 is like I said the manual element select. Once things are all tuned I can see where I would fill the pots before leaving for work. I log into the system from work and fire up the HLT and pump remotely while I drive home. By the time I get home the MT and HLT would likely up to temp and ready to dough in. If I had an element select switch, I wouldn't have an easy way to see if the BK or HLT is selected. Not 100% sure I would do this but it is an option.

In my case, while I would be pushing the power limits out in my pole barn (60A circuit) I could do 50A if needed. I will wire and install breakers for 50A operation.

 

[dipole]

This is the kit I went with.

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/complete50bcs.html

I am doing a HERMS configuration and I will have to see how much of a problem it is. Ideally I would want to hold the BK wort at 180 or so as I am sparging. Not sure how big of a deal it would be to hold the HLT at the proper temp and the BK at the same time with 30A. It won't work if you do an element select.

Another option is to go with a 50A panel. For now go with slightly smaller elements. While it will add a bit of time to your temp changes, I was shocked at what the difference was. I want to say to bring 6 gallons from 180 to boil with a 4500W element it is 7 minutes where a 5500W is 5 minutes. 2 minutes isn't that big of a deal. You could always give the BK a shot of heat every now and then while sparging.

I work in IT so I always have a computer as well. I am adding some manual push button inputs to step through the process. This way I can use the laptop or connect it to a larger display (TV) and use that.

My main reason for doing 50 is like I said the manual element select. Once things are all tuned I can see where I would fill the pots before leaving for work. I log into the system from work and fire up the HLT and pump remotely while I drive home. By the time I get home the MT and HLT would likely up to temp and ready to dough in. If I had an element select switch, I wouldn't have an easy way to see if the BK or HLT is selected. Not 100% sure I would do this but it is an option.

In my case, while I would be pushing the power limits out in my pole barn (60A circuit) I could do 50A if needed. I will wire and install breakers for 50A operation.

Thanks, that's the exact kit I was looking at and this helped.I also like the idea of smaller elements, for some reason I didn't think of that and losing a couple minutes due to smaller elements is not a problem at all. I also like the idea of adding some push button functionality though I'm not sure how to go about it.

Thank, I think my mind is made up for the 50. Now I just have to figure out if I want them to assemble it or do it myself. How long do you think it would take a novice to wire the kit up?

 

[sennister]

Thanks, that's the exact kit I was looking at and this helped.I also like the idea of smaller elements, for some reason I didn't think of that and losing a couple minutes due to smaller elements is not a problem at all. I also like the idea of adding some push button functionality though I'm not sure how to go about it.

Thank, I think my mind is made up for the 50. Now I just have to figure out if I want them to assemble it or do it myself. How long do you think it would take a novice to wire the kit up?

The other day someone else here pointed to the spreadsheet which you can find here for calculating times. Bottom link at this page. Like you I thought it was a bigger impact on times. 99% of the time I will be doing 5 gallon batches in my keggles. If I were you I would wire it with plans for the 50A and 5500W elements. Go with the smaller ones for now then if you want you can swap out for the elements later if you want. They are about $28 from Amazon.

http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/beer-software.html

For me, I am not in a huge rush on the build so the time isn't a big deal. Plus I will enjoy doing it and understand everything going on inside better than if I had him build it. The other side of it is I already have all the tools needed to do this so that makes it easier. For the build I have knock out punches, hole saws, die grinder, dremel, power file and such. Depends on your capabilities and tools though. He does offer to punch the holes in the panel if you want and that might help some of the harder parts.

For the physical input buttons the BCS has inputs for this and you can have up to 4 manual buttons. One will be to cancel the alarm I added the others can be used as feed back to the system to step to the next phase. For instance I did a hop addition or to manually control a pump. I am going to max out my panel with all 4 inputs. I figure I would rather have them and not need them rather than go back and have to do it again. They are pretty cheap at $3.50. That is also why I ordered them. Cheap price and to go back and do it later I would have to pay for shipping.

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/indicators-switches/push-buttons/pushbut-no-switch.html

To wire them you pick up 5v power off the BCS and route it through the button and back to the input on the BCS. This way when you press the button it completes the circuit and sends 5v to the input and the BCS processes whatever you just triggered.

Ryan is pretty helpful with questions there and while he didn't offer it as an option, I upgraded that kit to the next size larger panel. The kit came with a 400x400x200 but I had him swap it with the 600x500x200 panel. It costs $50 more so I checked with him and he said it was fine to order the optional $50 wifi module for $50 and he made a note that the $50 was for the difference to upgrade the panel size.

Another comment about time frame. I told Ryan I am not in a rush which is true. He has had issues getting one of the plugs. I think he said it was the 120V twist locks for the pumps that are part of the kit. I ordered mine back on Black Friday when he had them on sale but it still hasn't shipped. Again, not a big deal for me but not sure if it is in your case.

Originally I was going to go the PID route. I always thought he automation stuff would be cool. With this is didn't change the price much to go with BCS from the start rather than go with PIDs and later upgrade. Actually probably a little cheaper as the temp probes needed are different between the BCS and PID.

Let me know if you have anything else I might be able to help out with.

 

[stevehaun]

Be sure to get a big control panel. This is a major cost and you don't want to buy it twice. I would recommend 20"X16"X8" as a minimum size.

 

[sennister]

Be sure to get a big control panel. This is a major cost and you don't want to buy it twice. I would recommend 20"X16"X8" as a minimum size.

Yeah, this is why I upgraded the enclosure from the 400x400x200 16"x16"x8" to the larger 600x500x200 24"x20"x8". To bump up to the larger panel it only ran me an extra $50.

Worst case if you want to later change the front layout you can cut the main part of the panel off and rivet in a new bit of sheet metal with the new holes punched in it. I have also seen where there are panel design companies which can punch out all the holes and label (etch) everything which looked pretty cool. Then just zip out the main part of the door and attach the new one.

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/


Hey I see we are neighbors. I live in Grant, MN just outside Stillwater...