Full-boil benefits with BIAB?

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Not sure what "every commercial kitchen" has to do with brewing, but every commercial brewery uses SS. Aluminum works and will be less expensive and a little lighter than SS - It just isn't better. I bought a 10 gallon heavy aluminum pot after reading posts like yours and regret the decision. I bought a 60L SS kettle for less than $100.00 and haven't looked back.

I just do not want other new brewers to make the same mistake I made based on the opinions of those trying to rationalize their choice of a (slightly) less expensive and inferior material.

You are wrong on all counts. Aluminum is the superior metal it retains heat better, is thicker, and is less expensive. The only rationale behind stainless steel is that it could potentially be seen as cleaner and has no fear of the myths around aluminum. The every commercial kitchen dispels the myths of mad hatter disease. Glad you enjoy your pot try to make it little more about that in the future and you will have more friends. I see you're new and you're coming on a little strong this debate is old and trust me you're not going to end it. Take it from somebody who came on a little strong and regrets it
 
How do you figure aluminum holds heat better? Based on thermal conductivity it will not! Aluminum is used for heat sinks in electronics for a reason, it sheds heat faster than steel!
 
How do you figure aluminum holds heat better? Based on thermal conductivity it will not! Aluminum is used for heat sinks in electronics for a reason, it sheds heat faster than steel!

You basically just made your own argument. Your correct. It's all about thermal conductivity and heat transfer. Based on those factors, aluminum performs both much better than stainless steel.

Aluminum does pretty decent as a heat sink. It's light weight and cheap. Copper does even better, but it's much heavier and costs more....guess the same could be said for cookware.
It's all about thermal conductivity and heat transfer.
I will say;
Stainless is pretty.
Stainless is fairly easy to clean.
Stainless is resistant to rust.
Stainless doesn't stain easily.
Stainless looks good hanging on my pot rack in the kitchen.
 
How do you figure aluminum holds heat better? Based on thermal conductivity it will not! Aluminum is used for heat sinks in electronics for a reason, it sheds heat faster than steel!

No. aluminum conducts heat better but it doesn't shed it better than any other material when the shedding is done to the ambient air. When at the interface between metal and air there should be negligible difference in losing heat.
 
Natural convection will keep air moving, if aluminum moves more heat to the outside it will also increase the convection. As I mentioned, there is a reason it used for heatsinks in electrics to get rid of heat! If stainless shed heat faster it would be used as a heatsink instead of aluminum!


No. aluminum conducts heat better but it doesn't shed it better than any other material when the shedding is done to the ambient air. When at the interface between metal and air there should be negligible difference in losing heat.
 
Natural convection will keep air moving, if aluminum moves more heat to the outside it will also increase the convection. As I mentioned, there is a reason it used for heatsinks in electrics to get rid of heat! If stainless shed heat faster it would be used as a heatsink instead of aluminum!

Think of this grilling apology : have you ever noticed when touching aluminum foil that has been on the grill or oven that it cools down relatively quickly compared something that is stainless steal? I think it's even true taking into account (and probably partly due) differences in density/weight. Intuitively, aluminum heats and cools more quickly.

I went with stainless as I got a great deal. Also, stainless should hold heat longer which would be beneficial for full volume biab mash, although it probably does take longer to get up to temperature.
 
Just wanted to add in that you guys should be arguing based on specific heat capacity, not thermal conductivity.

/carry on
 
I can't even remember what my original question was. Haha!

Just for ****s, what about copper? I don't think I have an extra grand laying around, but is copper any better by any measure?
 
No. aluminum conducts heat better but it doesn't shed it better than any other material when the shedding is done to the ambient air. When at the interface between metal and air there should be negligible difference in losing heat.

How can something conduct heat better if it doesn't shed it? Do you have any understanding of thermodynamics or are you just parroting stuff you read somewhere? If the material does not shed the heat it does not conduct it, it merely absorbs it.
 
In English . Bottom line is aluminum holds and conducts heat significantly better as is measurable, provable, and identifiable.

Again, if it "conducts heat" significantly better that means it cannot possibly "hold heat" significantly better since it will be conducting heat equally well in either direction, again due to the laws of thermodynamics.

Logic is not your best suit, is it?

And that is in English as well.
 
This thread took a detour down bullshat boulevard.

That's half the fun of these forums. The take away is that stainless is more expensive because it's prettier and it takes it longer to cool down and heat up, which is exactly what you want for biab- stable mash temps. However, it's not that big of deal: aluminum will get the job done with probably indistinguishable results for a cheaper price.
 
Folks, I know I am new here. Please forgive me in advance for the following rant. I hope I don't get booted from this forum but, I cannot let full bravado bull hockey go uncontested. I know I have already posted a couple responses to this guy but, I reread the thread and found a dismissive post that drove me over the wall.

Just so you know, I am not against aluminum cookware. I own several pieces. I also have replaced many pieces over the years. My ex-wife could ruin a piece of aluminum cookware faster that I could replace it. However, with care a good quality piece will last a lifetime if it is properly cared for. You will absolutely be able to make great beer with aluminum!

The choice of which material you desire is yours and yours alone. Both materials will work.

That said, statements that start with, "You are wrong on all counts." and then devolve into absurdity have to be addressed in my anal retentive mind.

You are wrong on all counts. Aluminum is the superior metal it retains heat better, is thicker, and is less expensive.

Is thicker? You can get either material in any gauge you want. Stainless is usually thinner in a given application because of its higher tensile strength. In other words, it takes thicker aluminum to be as strong as stainless steel because aluminum is a weaker material.

The only rationale behind stainless steel is that it could potentially be seen as cleaner and has no fear of the myths around aluminum.

I work in an industry that manufactures using metals. There really aren't any myths about aluminum that I know of. (Well, there is that myth that aluminum doesn't "rust." Let some moist salt sit on that aluminum for a while and you will see white rust, aluminum oxide.) We judge what material to use by it's mechanical and chemical properties. Your rationale is not rational.

The every commercial kitchen dispels the myths of mad hatter disease. Glad you enjoy your pot try to make it little more about that in the future and you will have more friends. I see you're new and you're coming on a little strong this debate is old and trust me you're not going to end it. Take it from somebody who came on a little strong and regrets it

Yeah. You came on here a little too strong too. Perhaps even snotty or snide. Tell us what particular type of aluminum your kettles are made of and I will give you a detailed assessment of that material versus the 304 stainless steel that is fairly universal in high end cookware, breweries, chemical process plants and other operations where liquids and heat are involved.

The downside of stainless steel in such uses is not only its cost but also the workability of the material. It is harder to drill, form, weld, and just about everything else. That said, it is in wide demand because of those properties that make it so hard to work with.

The upside is, when used in the manner we are using it, it will last a lifetime and overcome abuse and misuse.

You can blow smoke up some people's butts, but not mine.

Aluminum is a great material and is absolutely the best material at many things. My company uses it extensively, much more than stainless steel. But, only in the right applications.

For instance, aluminum ages (looses strength) collectively when exposed to temperatures above 300 degrees. For that reason, all aluminum ladders used by fire departments must have a temperature label to indicate that they have been exposed to 300 degrees and must be removed from service if so indicated.

/END RANT

Again, I am sorry if I stepped on any toes here, except for ten in particular.

Definitive statements like those I have addressed tend to make me hit the homebrew.

If you want to use aluminum, go right ahead. I don't have a problem with that. It will do the job just fine. and you will still brew great beer. Just don't go making unsubstantiated statements in public about it.
 
Folks, I know I am new here. Please forgive me in advance for the following rant. I hope I don't get booted from this forum but, I cannot let full bravado bull hockey go uncontested. I know I have already posted a couple responses to this guy but, I reread the thread and found a dismissive post that drove me over the wall.

Just so you know, I am not against aluminum cookware. I own several pieces. I also have replaced many pieces over the years. My ex-wife could ruin a piece of aluminum cookware faster that I could replace it. However, with care a good quality piece will last a lifetime if it is properly cared for. You will absolutely be able to make great beer with aluminum!

The choice of which material you desire is yours and yours alone. Both materials will work.

That said, statements that start with, "You are wrong on all counts." and then devolve into absurdity have to be addressed in my anal retentive mind.



Is thicker? You can get either material in any gauge you want. Stainless is usually thinner in a given application because of its higher tensile strength. In other words, it takes thicker aluminum to be as strong as stainless steel because aluminum is a weaker material.



I work in an industry that manufactures using metals. There really aren't any myths about aluminum that I know of. (Well, there is that myth that aluminum doesn't "rust." Let some moist salt sit on that aluminum for a while and you will see white rust, aluminum oxide.) We judge what material to use by it's mechanical and chemical properties. Your rationale is not rational.



Yeah. You came on here a little too strong too. Perhaps even snotty or snide. Tell us what particular type of aluminum your kettles are made of and I will give you a detailed assessment of that material versus the 304 stainless steel that is fairly universal in high end cookware, breweries, chemical process plants and other operations where liquids and heat are involved.

The downside of stainless steel in such uses is not only its cost but also the workability of the material. It is harder to drill, form, weld, and just about everything else. That said, it is in wide demand because of those properties that make it so hard to work with.

The upside is, when used in the manner we are using it, it will last a lifetime and overcome abuse and misuse.

You can blow smoke up some people's butts, but not mine.

Aluminum is a great material and is absolutely the best material at many things. My company uses it extensively, much more than stainless steel. But, only in the right applications.

For instance, aluminum ages (looses strength) collectively when exposed to temperatures above 300 degrees. For that reason, all aluminum ladders used by fire departments must have a temperature label to indicate that they have been exposed to 300 degrees and must be removed from service if so indicated.

/END RANT

Again, I am sorry if I stepped on any toes here, except for ten in particular.

Definitive statements like those I have addressed tend to make me hit the homebrew.

If you want to use aluminum, go right ahead. I don't have a problem with that. It will do the job just fine. and you will still brew great beer. Just don't go making unsubstantiated statements in public about it.

Im sorry, i didnt mean any offense.

I dont understand though why i only can find conductivity information and charts not dissipation charts. It makes sense thermodynamicly quick in quick out, but i wonder if i took these two pans in my hand outside here in clorado snow storm and put on porch which would cool first. I figure it wouldn't matter much compared to the thermo retainment property of a really thick 1070 wort in them. I was hoping someone could produce a figure comparing wort retention vs. metal, my reading says water has 10x heat retention of ss/aluminum thus the wort mass maintains biab mash not the metal, i wrap mine in feathers and a plastic bag.
 
Again, why does the electronics industry use aluminum to remove heat from solid state devices? Because it is the best heat conductor for the price/machining. Once heat is to the material air interface you have the exact same thermal conductivity. But since stainless moves that heat slower to the outside than aluminum will it will retain heat longer. And cook whatever I am trying to cool on the other side. Real life example that has been used for YEARS on consumer grade electronics. Are there better materials that conduct heat? Yup, copper being one of them but it is more expensive, harder to machine and work, tends to be softer and reacts more with acids/bases...


Im sorry, i didnt mean any offense.

I dont understand though why i only can find conductivity information and charts not dissipation. It makes sense thermodynamicly quick in quick out, but i wonder if i took these two pans in my hand outside here in clorado snow storm and put on porch which would cool first. I figure it wouldn't matter much compared to the thermo retainment property of a really thick 1070 wort in them. I was hoping someone could produce a figure comparing wort retention vs. metal, my reading says 10x thus the wort mass maintains biab mash not the metal, i wrap mine in feathers and a plastic bag.
 
How can something conduct heat better if it doesn't shed it? Do you have any understanding of thermodynamics or are you just parroting stuff you read somewhere? If the material does not shed the heat it does not conduct it, it merely absorbs it.

Exactly, the difference in conductivity between the aluminum and stainless steel is almost nil since the sides of the kettle are thin. When you start thinking of wall thickness in inches instead of thousandths of an inch it makes a difference. With the same shape the two kettles will shed heat at about the same rate with the stainless being slightly smaller because of the polished surface. Paint both of them black and the radiation of both of them will be essentially the same.

Aluminum makes great heat sinks because it is cheap and can be easily molded or machined to any shape. Copper would make a better heat sink because it conducts heat slightly faster and silver would be better yet but you don't see either of those used because of the cost/benefit ratio. Stainless steel isn't as good of a conductor but if it could be molded/machined cheaper it would be used for heat sinks because the distance the heat needs to travel is small.
 
Actually that thin metal DOES make a difference! Even the thermal transfer compound that is spread in layer that is less than .01 thick can totally change the thermal transfer properties. Silver bearing compounds move heat FASTER and that is what counts! The speed at which the material can move heat from one side to the other makes a huge difference and aluminum does it far better than stainless.

Exactly, the difference in conductivity between the aluminum and stainless steel is almost nil since the sides of the kettle are thin. When you start thinking of wall thickness in inches instead of thousandths of an inch it makes a difference. With the same shape the two kettles will shed heat at about the same rate with the stainless being slightly smaller because of the polished surface. Paint both of them black and the radiation of both of them will be essentially the same.

Aluminum makes great heat sinks because it is cheap and can be easily molded or machined to any shape. Copper would make a better heat sink because it conducts heat slightly faster and silver would be better yet but you don't see either of those used because of the cost/benefit ratio. Stainless steel isn't as good of a conductor but if it could be molded/machined cheaper it would be used for heat sinks because the distance the heat needs to travel is small.
 
Actually that thin metal DOES make a difference! Even the thermal transfer compound that is spread in layer that is less than .01 thick can totally change the thermal transfer properties. Silver bearing compounds move heat FASTER and that is what counts! The speed at which the material can move heat from one side to the other makes a huge difference and aluminum does it far better than stainless.

I don't know about you but, I certainly don't own a silver boil kettle.:mad:

Yes, aluminum does transfer heat better than stainless steel (SS). That is why I commented that it, consequently, cannot hold heat better. You must, however, take into account that the thickness of the average aluminum pot is much higher than the thickness of a SS pot. Consequently, it is not apples to apples. However, aluminum will still transfer heat faster in such applications in BOTH directions even though the aluminum kettle will have much more mass. (Aluminum thermal conductivity 200-250 W/moC vs 304 stainless steel 16 W/moC)

Thermal properties are not the reason stainless steel is often chosen for industrial grade applications like large cooking vessels or fermentation vats. It is normally chosen because of its tensile strength, hardness (resistance to scratches from rough use and cleaning), and resistance to chemicals, both acidic and alkaline, used in cleaning. Additionally, stainless steel can withstand much higher temperatures without adverse affects.

Simply concentrating on heat conductivity is not productive as I seriously doubt that anyone here made that their sole criteria for a purchase.

One poster said they chose aluminum because of the price. He has other hobbies he also would like to spend money on. I can respect that. I would imagine that a lot of people who choose aluminum do so for the same reason and that is a very valid point. Aluminum will definitely save them money and make excellent beer. It will last for years if it is properly cared for.

I, personally, chose SS because I am lazy. I use copper and steel mesh scrubbers as well as scotchbrite pads to clean my kettle very fast and do not have to worry about scratching the polished surface. I can scrub that thing hard and furious without marring the finish. I sell fire trucks and like bright shiny objects.:D Were I to scrub aluminum in the same way I would be removing material and dulling the finish. But, that was my choice.

As I have said, either material will make great beer. The kettle is just a tool in the brewer's toolbox. I like nice tools. They give me peace of mind and one less thing to worry about. But, that is just me.

Now, can we drop the AL vs SS subject and get back to the original topic: Full Boil Benefits of BIAB?

:mug:
 
Oh I prefer stainless for longevity and ease of cleaning too. Just finished a 5 gallon batch 3 hours ago, filled with my 145 degree tap water, added PBW, soaked for 2 hours, hit it with a scotchbrite pad to get a few stains off and done. No worries about cleaner discoloration or the scotchbrite taking off the oxide layer. Tossed the cooler coil into the pot as it soaked and after a rinse it came out looking like I polished it! I too like things shiny clean!
 
Triclad exists for a reason right?

Correct me if I am wrong but I have never seen an aluminum pot with SS added to the bottom, but rather aluminum added to SS.

I don't know what that means, just wanted to see if I could stir it up again.
 
Triclad exists for a reason right?

Correct me if I am wrong but I have never seen an aluminum pot with SS added to the bottom, but rather aluminum added to SS.

I don't know what that means, just wanted to see if I could stir it up again.

The reason Triclad exists is to entice us tool snobs to spend more regardless of actual, provable benefits.

Just a thought.
 
Triclad adds an aluminum disc in between 2 layers of stainless. It helps spread the heat more evenly across the bottom of the pot. Is it worth the expense? I haven't scorched a boil yet(yet!!) in my cheap thin stainless Bayou deep fry pot.
 
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