Full-boil benefits with BIAB?

[mrphillips]

Like many homebrewers stuck in the world of partial mashes, I am yearning to expand to brew-in-a-bag (and of course, eventually AG).

Is it necessary to invest in an 8 gallon brewpot, or is it possible for me to make the transition to BIAB with my 5 gallon pot?

Also, would it be worth investing in an 8 gallon pot if I continue partial mashes? I have made many good beers, a few great bears, but I have never done a full boil. I'm not sure if a full boil would yield more "great" than "good" beers.

 

[Kerrbrewer]

I started out doing biab. I was able to do 2.5 gal batches in my 5 gal kettle. Ive heard some guys do not mash the full boil volume and do a sparge to get 4.5 volume to start the boil. Give it a try with what youve got and see how you like it

 

[fun4stuff]

Like many homebrewers stuck in the world of partial mashes, I am yearning to expand to brew-in-a-bag (and of course, eventually AG).

Is it necessary to invest in an 8 gallon brewpot, or is it possible for me to make the transition to BIAB with my 5 gallon pot?

Also, would it be worth investing in an 8 gallon pot if I continue partial mashes? I have made many good beers, a few great bears, but I have never done a full boil. I'm not sure if a full boil would yield more "great" than "good" beers.

BIab is all grain. There is no need to do traditional all grain unless your the type of guy who likes using typewriters and driving model T's.

Get a 10-15 gallon pot and be done with it.

 

[Craigmn]

I can't tell if that guy ^ is a troll or just doesn't know what he's talking about

 

[fun4stuff]

I can't tell if that guy ^ is a troll or just doesn't know what he's talking about

Everything I said is true. BIAB is not a stepping stone- it is all grain and a newer, better method of doing all grain at that.

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=191

There is no reason to do traditional all grain unless you like a more complicated process.

 

[brew_darrymore]

Is it necessary to invest in an 8 gallon brewpot, or is it possible for me to make the transition to BIAB with my 5 gallon pot?

A 5-gallon pot will allow you to do 3-3.5 gallon full boil batches.

BIAB is not complicated, it is all-grain as fun4stuff mentioned above, and you can easily transition to it, but you will still be limited to 3-3.5 gallon full-boil batches because of the size of your pot.

When I moved to BIAB, I had to also get into water chemistry and mash pH control, something I didn't bother with when doing partial mashes.

 

[FatDragon]

BIAB is a method of all-grain brewing. Whether or not you want to move from BIAB to a multiple-vessel method in the future is your own decision to make - there are pros and cons to both BIAB and traditional 2-3-vessel all grain setups - but once you're making BIAB brews, you're already brewing all grain.

An 8 gallon kettle is a bit of a stretch for 5 gallon BIAB. I do 6 gallon BIAB (for 5-5.5 gallons finished product) in a 9 gallon kettle with a sparge and I still feel like it's a bit too small for some of my batches. If you can go directly to a 10 gallon kettle, you'll be glad you did. If 10 gallon batches are in your future, going directly to a 15 gallon kettle will be a worthwhile investment: you can do 5 gallon BIAB easily in a 15 gallon kettle (heck, you could no-sparge a 5 gallon, 1.150 OG, 5 hour boil barleywine in a 15 gallon kettle) and it'll have room to do moderate OG 10 gallon batches BIAB (especially with a sparge) or to function as a HLT, MLT, or boil kettle in a multiple-vessel 10 gallon system.

As for the pros and cons of partial versus full-boil with BIAB, they're pretty much the same as if you were doing PM or extract brewing. The big ones I can recall are hop utilization and potential maillardization or excessive boiloff of your wort. The former's not much of an issue if you're not making hoppy beers but will always be a limitation for partial-boil IPAs. The latter can be controlled by using a lower flame for the boil. Feel free anyone to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

the rule of thumb is your pot needs to be twice th size of the batch of finished beer for safe brewing meaning you don't have to watch it like a hawk, so for a 5 gallons of finished beer you need at least a 10 gallon pot, an 8 will work but 10 is better

 

[MaryB]

Dude! Have you done all grain brews? LME and DME are shortcuts that can limit your final product flavor. If extract brewing was so good of an end product the microbreweries around here would do it and NONE of them use it!

Everything I said was true.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...ocess to achieve an inferior product.[/quote]

 

[FatDragon]

Dude! Have you done all grain brews? LME and DME are shortcuts that can limit your final product flavor. If extract brewing was so good of an end product the microbreweries around here would do it and NONE of them use it!

Although I don't entirely agree with his premise and can't make heads or tails of the URL he shared, the post you're quoting wasn't meant to state that extract brewing is superior to all-grain brewing, but that BIAB is all-grain brewing and you don't have to use the traditional HLT-MLT-Boil Kettle system to do all-grain brewing. He also seemed to imply that traditional all-grain necessarily produces inferior beer to the BIAB process, which would be a very silly thing to say as both methods of all-grain brewing can produce equally excellent beers.

As for extract, in the hands of an experienced brewer extract brewing (allowing for steeping grains and partial mash) can be almost as versatile as all-grain and can often shave a couple hours off of the brewday. If decent brewing extract starts to make its way into the Chinese market at reasonable prices, I'll almost certainly add some extract recipes to my arsenal. We're planning on having a kid soon and it's already hard enough to find the time for a brewday without having transitioned to fatherhood; once the baby's here, the occasional extract-based brew may be the only way I can keep the pipeline primed.

 

[Chris_Primavera]

the rule of thumb is your pot needs to be twice th size of the batch of finished beer for safe brewing meaning you don't have to watch it like a hawk, so for a 5 gallons of finished beer you need at least a 10 gallon pot, an 8 will work but 10 is better

10 will work but 15 is better.

Plenty of room for high gravity batches with (almost) no risk of boil-over.

 

[eadavis80]

I can get 5 gallons of BIAB with my 8-gallon kettle, but I have to sparge a gallon or so and be very careful with hot break and hop additions. Looking back on it, I do wish I had spent the extra $ on a 10-gallon kettle, but you can do a full 5-gallons BIAB with an 8-gallon kettle. Just have to be careful and sparge a little.

 

[RM-MN]

Dude! Have you done all grain brews? LME and DME are shortcuts that can limit your final product flavor. If extract brewing was so good of an end product the microbreweries around here would do it and NONE of them use it!

I really suspect that the reason none of the microbreweries around you use extract instead of all grain is more economics than flavor quality. All grain is cheaper once you have amortized the equipment.:rockin:

 

[fun4stuff]

Dude! Have you done all grain brews? LME and DME are shortcuts that can limit your final product flavor. If extract brewing was so good of an end product the microbreweries around here would do it and NONE of them use it!

Dude! Did you read either of my posts? Definitely in favor of biab. Obviously, I had a few homebrew last night. Maybe you too?

With that said, it's definitely possible to make very good beers with extract as well. I think the real benefit of all grain (aside from the potential of being cheaper in the long run), is the customization /increased variety of recipes one can do with all grain.

My point is that biab should not be seen as a stepping stone. Biab is all grain and a newer, superior method (at the homebrew level).

 

[McKnuckle]

My point is that biab should not be seen as a stepping stone. Biab is all grain and a newer, superior method for all grain (at the homebrew level).

I sense that until John Palmer puts a chapter into the next edition How To Brew, it's destined to be our word against the masses.

And I've always had a suspicion that the big homebrew shops aren't keen on BIAB because it means selling fewer stainless vessels and fewer gadgets all around. Maybe they haven't gotten clued in to electric BIAB yet...

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[thunderwagn]

Guess I won't beat a dead horse and say that "BIAB is all grain" brewing.
If you look on Amazon, you can get a 10 gallon aluminum pot for $50 which is about perfect for doing 5-6 gallon batches.
This pot is built like a tank and holds heat like a mutha:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CHKL68/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I purchased a lid for another $15 or so

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

when I was doing brew in a bag I went with a 15 gallon pot, 60 quarts. not the best on the market but worked fine for me, I still have it in the attic
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PZBEKE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[dstockwell]

Is it necessary to invest in an 8 gallon brewpot, or is it possible for me to make the transition to BIAB with my 5 gallon pot?

I do 3.25 gallon batches full volume, no sparge, in a 7.5 gallon pot. I start with 5 gallons of water, and boil a little over 4.5 gallons. So you may be able to do 2.5 - 3, but probably have to sparge, and be careful on the boil.

 

[nDub]

I do 5 or 6 gallon BIAB batches in a 42qt pot and I really wish I had gone for the 60qt. So I second all the recommendations for a 60 qt pot

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000BXHL3/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This one comes with basket.

 

[Homercidal]

Like many homebrewers stuck in the world of partial mashes, I am yearning to expand to brew-in-a-bag (and of course, eventually AG).

Is it necessary to invest in an 8 gallon brewpot, or is it possible for me to make the transition to BIAB with my 5 gallon pot?

Also, would it be worth investing in an 8 gallon pot if I continue partial mashes? I have made many good beers, a few great bears, but I have never done a full boil. I'm not sure if a full boil would yield more "great" than "good" beers.

If you want to do 5 gallon batches, then the 8 gallon kettle is minimal size. I recommend a 10, though.

You will want to perform a sparge to use the 8 gallon, since you can't fit all the grain AND the water necessary for full volume mash. But it's no big deal. Just buy a cheap 5 gallon kettle and dunk sparge in that.

Any way you slice it I think you will be doing yourself a favor by upgrading your kettle. Even if you use it for extract/PM it can enhance your experience.

Of course you will probably also want to get a chiller then if you don't already have one.

 

[Chris_Primavera]

you can get a 10 gallon aluminum pot for $50 which is about perfect for doing 5-6 gallon batches.

Been there, done that

Made a nice machined lid to boot.

I'll sell it to you for cheap because

IT'S TOO DAMN SMALL

My "house" IPA uses over 14# of grain and 10 gallons of water. It will not fit in a 10 gallon kettle unless I resort to work arounds that make things exponentially more difficult.

60 Qt. / 15 gallon is roomy enough and almost eliminates the chance of boil-over.

And if you are buying new, buy stainless - cleaning is a breeze. I bought this and it works perfectly.

Just make sure you put a cake rack on the bottom to avoid scorching your bag.

 

[thunderwagn]

Been there, done that

Made a nice machined lid to boot.

I'll sell it to you for cheap because

IT'S TOO DAMN SMALL

My "house" IPA uses over 14# of grain and 10 gallons of water. It will not fit in a 10 gallon kettle unless I resort to work arounds that make things exponentially more difficult.

60 Qt. / 15 gallon is roomy enough and almost eliminates the chance of boil-over.

And if you are buying new, buy stainless - cleaning is a breeze. I bought this and it works perfectly.

Just make sure you put a cake rack on the bottom to avoid scorching your bag.

It's hard to clean aluminum?

 

[fun4stuff]

It's hard to clean aluminum?

I use a 19 gallon ss kettle. It's at the upper limits of what you want for a 5 agglomeration batch, but works well enough and can do 10 gallon batches if needed.
If you plan on doing mostly 5 gallom batches, 15 gallon pot would probably be the sweet spot.

 

[enkamania]

It's hard to clean aluminum?

Soap and water

 

[Gavin C]

11 Gallon Pot (Nominal 10 gallon Megapot)

5.5 gallon batch OG 1.062

Full Volume Mash, ~12.6 lbs of grain ~8 gallons of water

This size pot suits my needs perfectly.


I have made bigger beers in it. 1.065 my largest to date.

I could do 1.075 without difficulty as a full volume mash.

Anything over 1.08 would likely require a slight adjustment to my process, i.e. incorporation of a sparge.

 

[RM-MN]

Been there, done that

Made a nice machined lid to boot.

I'll sell it to you for cheap because

IT'S TOO DAMN SMALL

My "house" IPA uses over 14# of grain and 10 gallons of water. It will not fit in a 10 gallon kettle unless I resort to work arounds that make things exponentially more difficult.

60 Qt. / 15 gallon is roomy enough and almost eliminates the chance of boil-over.

And if you are buying new, buy stainless - cleaning is a breeze. I bought this and it works perfectly.

Just make sure you put a cake rack on the bottom to avoid scorching your bag.

Why? Why does it take 14 pounds of grain and 10 gallons of water? How big is your batch, what is the OG of the wort, how much do you boil off or lose to the grain?

Why does he need to go to stainless steel? Many of us do just fine with aluminum at a much lower cost.

Why does he need a cake rack to avoid scorching? I bring the water to strike temp before I put the bag in and never add any heat until the bag is out again. No possibility of scorching that way.

 

[thunderwagn]

Why? Why does it take 14 pounds of grain and 10 gallons of water? How big is your batch, what is the OG of the wort, how much do you boil off or lose to the grain?

Why does he need to go to stainless steel? Many of us do just fine with aluminum at a much lower cost.

Why does he need a cake rack to avoid scorching? I bring the water to strike temp before I put the bag in and never add any heat until the bag is out again. No possibility of scorching that way.

THIS EXACTLY!!

I agree 100%

 

[ericbw]

I really suspect that the reason none of the microbreweries around you use extract instead of all grain is more economics than flavor quality. All grain is cheaper once you have amortized the equipment.:rockin:

Probably correct.

Further, the reason micro (or any) breweries don't use biab is that there are size limitations. Lifting hundreds of pounds of wet grain to drain is impractical.

I say that to make the point that we're talking about *home* brewing, not commercial brewing. Extract, biab, AG, pruno you make under your bed, cider from Walmart apple juice, it's all good!

Extract makes it easy sometimes.

 

[PGEduardo]

Probably correct.

Further, the reason micro (or any) breweries don't use biab is that there are size limitations. Lifting hundreds of pounds of wet grain to drain is impractical.

I say that to make the point that we're talking about *home* brewing, not commercial brewing. Extract, biab, AG, pruno you make under your bed, cider from Walmart apple juice, it's all good!

Extract makes it easy sometimes.

I believe wilserbrewer can set the record straight here. He has made large biab bags for multiple micro breweries, iirc. Also there are a few extract only micro breweries out there as well. Just not as common...

 

[RM-MN]

I believe wilserbrewer can set the record straight here. He has made large biab bags for multiple micro breweries, iirc. Also there are a few extract only micro breweries out there as well. Just not as common...

Most microbreweries probably don't use BIAB for a couple reasons. One is knowledge. If you don't know about BIAB you don't use it and face it, there is a lot more info out there about conventional tuns for a microbrewer. Another is space. To make the best use of the bag, you need to lift it clear of the mash tun. Not every place has that much overhead availalbe nor would they all have the structure to hold and move a big bag of grain.

 

[JohnnyBrewGood]

Anyone mention fermcap?
I started BIAB with a 8 gallon kettle. (using fermcap) The kettle was closer to 9 tho. I had to sparge to reach volume and stood over boil to make sure but fermcap worked very well.
BIAB is almost too easy. I keep thinking about moving to a 3 tier system, but I cant figure out why? I now have a 16 gallon kettle and love it, well the volume.

 

[applescrap]

dont mess around with 8 gallon pot. 10 will allow full volume mash. With 15 you will have no worries of boil over. That said my 20$ 8 gallon tamale pot did fit nicely on stove, but new stove pushed me outside. With 8 gallon pot you will be using a 2nd vessel in one way or another probably that 5 g pot. If you have gas like gavin showed you are money, and 11 will fit most your needs big beers will require 2nd vessel my stove was electric, it will scar electric in my experience

 

[applescrap]

I can't tell if that guy ^ is a troll or just doesn't know what he's talking about

I disagree

 

[ejluttmann]

I started with BIAB and after some research decided to go with a 20 gallon SS pot, figuring I would eventually do 10 gallon batches. Glad I did, but got real tired of lifting the grain in those big batches so I moved to a two vessel system where I BIAB in one and then pump the wort into another (you could also just gravity feed). It was a progression over time but I can easily do 1.10+ beers by simply adjusting my efficiency (increasing my grain bill) without too much extra work on my part. BIAB is a great and inexpensive way to get into all grain brewing ... And I still deploy that method even though I've moved to a two vessel system. I had to dial down the efficiency a bit going to a two vessel system, but it made my brew process easier.

 

[Chris_Primavera]

It's hard to clean aluminum?

Aluminum is soft, scratches easily and the protective oxide layer can be removed by common cleansers.

Five minutes with PBW and a Scotch brite sponge and my SS pot looks like new.

I should have said aluminum is difficult to clean without damaging.

 

[Chris_Primavera]

Why? Why does it take 14 pounds of grain and 10 gallons of water? How big is your batch, what is the OG of the wort, how much do you boil off or lose to the grain?

Why does he need to go to stainless steel? Many of us do just fine with aluminum at a much lower cost.

Why does he need a cake rack to avoid scorching? I bring the water to strike temp before I put the bag in and never add any heat until the bag is out again. No possibility of scorching that way.

For a small additional investment, SS will be much easier to clean without damaging. Save $40. now, or save time cleaning every batch - your choice.

If you want to raise the temperature during the mash or for a mashout with the bag in, keeping it off the bottom is a good idea.

Sample recipe:

House IPA
Recipe Overview
Style: American IPA

ABV: 6.3%

Original Gravity (OG): 1.065
IBU's (Tinseth): 65
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 1

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 78.1 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 70.3 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65.5 C = 149.9 F
Boil: 90 min

Volumes & Gravities

Total Water Needed (TWN): 37.91 L = 10.02 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 33.67 L = 8.9 G @ 1.048
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 23.86 L = 6.3 G @ 1.065
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 21.5 L = 5.68 G @ 1.065
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 20.7 L = 5.47 G @ 1.016 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

94.1% 2-Row (3.5 EBC = 1.8 SRM) 6313 grams = 13.92 pounds
2.5% Crystal 10 (40 EBC = 20.3 SRM) 169 grams = 0.37 pounds
3.4% Vienna 226 grams = 0.5 pounds


The Hop Bill

50.8 IBU Columbus Pellets (13%AA) 42 grams = 1.483 ounces at 60 mins
5.6 IBU Amarillo Pellets (10.8%AA) 28.1 grams = 0.99 ounces at 5 mins
0 IBU Falconers Flight Pellets (10.8%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at mins (Dry Hopped)

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash): Saccharifiaction for 90 mins at 65.5 C = 149.9 F

Strike Water Needed (SWN): 38.66 L = 10.21 G 66.5 C = 151.6 F

Mashout for for 10 mins at 78 C = 172.4 F

 

[thunderwagn]

Aluminum is soft, scratches easily and the protective oxide layer can be removed by common cleansers.

Five minutes with PBW and a Scotch brite sponge and my SS pot looks like new.

I should have said aluminum is difficult to clean without damaging.

...I've never had an issue one cleaning my alumn pot. Nor have I had to use PBW on it or a scrub pad.

 

[applescrap]

Aluminum is soft, scratches easily and the protective oxide layer can be removed by common cleansers.

Five minutes with PBW and a Scotch brite sponge and my SS pot looks like new.

I should have said aluminum is difficult to clean without damaging.

I disagree and my aluminum pot was $60 and the lid was like 10 or 15 for a 15 gallon pot. And for another 80 I am debating adding a 20 or 30 gallon pot to make 10-gallon batches Brew in a bag using multiple bags. What sold me was researching the debate and realizing that every commercial Kitchen in America uses aluminium by-and-large over stainless steel. In fact my pot came from a commercial online restaurant store. So did the table in my laundry room but anyways about cleaning I rinse it really well after I'm done Brewing really really well and with a rag. It is the hot side anyways. Shoot I figure my pot has got to be clean doesn't have a weld or seam on it and I get very personal with it I broke it in by boiling water in it too create a good oxidization layer and never scrub It Off. Never let anything build up either. I would like expensive stainless steel pot but I have many interests including Hi-Fi speakers get what I mean. Now I'm on the search of a used Grill.

Think about this The Emptiness inside the pot makes it valuable

View attachment 1461723645780.jpg

View attachment 1461723664685.jpg

 

[Chris_Primavera]

Not sure what "every commercial kitchen" has to do with brewing, but every commercial brewery uses SS. Aluminum works and will be less expensive and a little lighter than SS - It just isn't better. I bought a 10 gallon heavy aluminum pot after reading posts like yours and regret the decision. I bought a 60L SS kettle for less than $100.00 and haven't looked back.

I just do not want other new brewers to make the same mistake I made based on the opinions of those trying to rationalize their choice of a (slightly) less expensive and inferior material.

 

[thunderwagn]

I'm the exact opposite. I made a decision based on all the positives and couldn't be more happy with my alumn kettle. Built like a tank and holds heat like a mutha. I've never once considered it inferior to my stainless. In fact, quite the opposite.