Forced to Switch to Electric. Need Help!

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NFryan

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So long story short... I have been brewing with propane outside my town house garage once or twice a month for over a year and a half with no issues. I have spent a lot of time and money getting my all grain setup complete finally.. A dick neighbor called security on me in my community during my last brew day(probably thought i was making meth). They told be propane is not allowed in the community only NG and I would have to stop the propane burner use... Running a natural gas line and burners will still require a lot of ventilation, so I want to go the electric route. Soooo my fuse panel is also located in my garage. I am going to have a 220 outlet installed. It would also be nice to be able to brew in the garage over the winter with the door closed. .

My question is.,... I see some very cool but very pricy pre built controllers.. But none seem to fit my needs and I may have to build my own.. I currently have:
A keggle hlt. (sight glass, pickup tube, Drain valve, screw in thermometer)
A colman xtreme 70qt mash tun (3/4 inch ss braid screen)
A keggle boil kettle
A 2 tier brew stand

All the controllers seem to designed for MLT's with pump recirculation setups.

I just need a control unit to control 2 different - 5500w elements (not at the same time) I know i need 2 Pid's 2 SSR's and 2 temp sensors.. One for the HLT and One for the boil kettle. I would still like to mash in the cooler, as I have had no heat loss or efficiency issues. I also don't need the pumps as I have been just doing everything gravity fed..

I don't want to over complicate anything more than I need to.So my question is.....Has anyone here made a basic 2 PID, 2 ssr, 2outlet control box that could possibly help me out? I need no pump control wiring.. Just the ability to control and monitor temps on an HLT and Boil kettle. I'm new to the whole electric brewing scene and could use as much help as possible. I can do the wiring myself but will need help with a basic (idiot proof) schematic if possible.
I was going to go with 2 auberins SYL-2352. And 2 50amp SSr's and heatsinks.

Please any input , thoughts, advice, etc would be greatly appreciated..
 
Here is a diagram that might help you. If you don't want or need the pump outlets, just don't wire them into your setup.

Click on the image to see and save a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J
 
Do you have a window in your garage somewhere?

Open the window. Raise your garage door about 6 or 8 inches. Put a couple of fans blowing fresh air from under the door.

Brew as usual.
 
you can easily follow PJ diagram fro wiring but as another option since your wanting simple and clean you could always purchase these pre-made units

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/prod...inite-Power-Control-158p3858.htm#.UmLKpRDOQ4c

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/prod...inite-Power-Control-158p3986.htm#.UmLLDBDOQ4c

they also do custom work if its not exactly what you want you can contact them for some simple changes.

now you may be able to build your own with no problems but depending on how elaborate you start getting into it. (switches, lights, din rails, terminal blocks, wire, wire ties, box/enclosure, paint, cutting tools, and so on and so on) the price for making your won can be even greater then these simple pre made ones.

i myself am making my own but its only because i wanted a custom look for my set up but i will tell you that after sourcing all the parts and tools for manufacturing it is actually more expensive then any of the pre made units of comparable setups.

just an FYI
 
Thanks guys for the help. Unfortunately I don't have a window in the garage. Due to association rules I can't even add one if I wanted to. Ill print the diagram out when I have chance and report back with a few more questions. I'm new to a lot of this so I'm sure I'll have a few more. Thanks again !
 
If you really don't want to spend a lot, you could just wire up a 220 on/off switch and then use a thermometer like you have been to get the temp for your hlt. Might need something a little more advanced for the bk though
 
When you have them put in the 220 outlet, make sure it is tied to a double pole, 50 amp, gfci breaker. You could go with 30, but you said you need to power two 5500 watt elements at the same time.

If you want to see a build much like what you are going for, check out this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-two-5500-watt-element-1-pid-ssr-build-281085/

For a cheap control with a twist style knob, you can do this:
Purchase a two pole, 30 amp, on off switch ~$20
Purchase a 40 amp, solid state relay with heat sink ~$15
Purchase this PWM board. Replace C1 with a 2.2uF capacitor. $9.00
Find an old, 12v DC charger from a cellphone, router, etc
Purchase some wire and connectors. $5-$10
Purchase power connectors to plug into your outlet and to plug your element into. $15-20
Purchase a small box to mount it in.

For less than $100 you have yourself a controller with a dial. You could go cheaper by using your breaker instead of the 30amp on off switch... but I will not recommend that as it is not safe.

ua4eQxt.jpg


IMPORTANT NOTE: Whoever made this diagram, did not include Ground and Neutral. You will need to wire a ground and neutral in where necessary... obviously.
 
You mentioned that you feel you need 2 PID controllers for your proposed setup.

While you could do this, you certainly don't need a PID for your BK. A simple PWM controller would be more than adequate for boil kettle control.

I am currently in the process of building an electric system thats similar to what you are describing. It will use a single PWM controller for my hot liquor kettle and brew kettle.
My plan is to just wire the controller to a 3 wire dryer receptacle and switch kettles heaters by unplugging one and plugging in the other.


I have RIMS with a PID already and it runs off a 120 volt outlet.
 
processhead said:
You mentioned that you feel you need 2 PID controllers for your proposed setup.

While you could do this, you certainly don't need a PID for your BK. A simple PWM controller would be more than adequate for boil kettle control.

I am currently in the process of building a similar electric system to what you are describing, and will be using a single PWM controller for my hot liquor kettle and brew kettle.
My plan is to just wire the controller to a 3 wire dryer receptacle and switch kettles heaters by unplugging one and plugging in the other.


I have RIMS with a PID already and it runs off a 120 volt outlet.
Click to expand...

I agree - running your brew pot with a PID is a waste of money. You don't even need a PID to monitor your brew pot temperature because water boils at 212F.

If you don't want to build your own there are a few low cost ready made brew pot controllers on the market.
$295.00 - High Gravity EBC II
http://goo.gl/0Cju2S

$285.00 - RBS Controls
http://goo.gl/yCSOsS

$249.00 - High Gravity Electric Kettle Controller
http://goo.gl/wZvK6P

$219.95 - Kegkits 240V Electric Brew Pot Controller
http://goo.gl/TI6XM3
 
NFryan said:
Thanks guys for the help. Unfortunately I don't have a window in the garage. Due to association rules I can't even add one if I wanted to. Ill print the diagram out when I have chance and report back with a few more questions. I'm new to a lot of this so I'm sure I'll have a few more. Thanks again !
Click to expand...
If I can help you in any way please let me know. Explanations, changes to the diagram, sources for the appropriate parts - et.al.

P-J
 
Reason number 2348734780943789 to never live anywhere with a HOA. Thanks for another reminder, I'll be moving again before too long.

So does that mean that nobody in your neighborhood has a propane grill???
 
TallDan said:
Reason number 2348734780943789 to never live anywhere with a HOA. Thanks for another reminder, I'll be moving again before too long. So does that mean that nobody in your neighborhood has a propane grill???
Click to expand...

Exactly. Lol. I have a propane grill. That is just a part of manhood that they can fine me Until death or sale of the townhouse. They told me.... And I quote " propane is not allowed in the township" . Smile and nod.
 
P-J said:
If I can help you in any way please let me know. Explanations, changes to the diagram, sources for the appropriate parts - et.al. P-J
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot man. It will help tremendously. I am beyond pissed and already am going to probably miss the next 2 brew days In Just conversion of my setup alone. Homebrew will prevail it's way beyond a hobby at this point. Thank you all again
 
NFryan said:
Exactly. Lol. I have a propane grill. That is just a part of manhood that they can fine me Until death or sale of the townhouse. They told me.... And I quote " propane is not allowed in the township" . Smile and nod.
Click to expand...

Well, i'd say that you should put up a fight, but I suspect it won't get you anywhere. Sounds like you're in good shape to go electric if your panel is in the garage, maybe this is a blessing in the disguise of a jackass neighbor. Good luck with the build!
 
P-J said:
Here is a diagram that might help you. If you don't want or need the pump outlets, just don't wire them into your setup.

Click on the image to see and save a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J
Click to expand...

PJ, do you have a similar diagram to this replacing the boil PID with a PWM?
 
The auber pids have a manual mode and you can use them similar to a pwm, but you could also do it with just 1 pid if you want to save on that
 
noremorse1 said:
If I was you, I would find the neighbor and lots of "practical jokes" would ensue.
Click to expand...

Already on that lol.. When it all occurred she was eyeing me up from across the street standing in her yard for 20 plus minutes until the rent a cop showed up.. He got out of the car and she made a mad dash inside and was peeking out the blinds lol .. Saw her 2 days later walking her dog so I asked how the neighborhood watch was going.. She started yelling so loud I thought she was going to have a coronary in the street ... I walked inside inside ignoring her nonsense. I already have these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEIGHBORHOOD-CRIME-WATCH-PROTECTED-AREA-WARNING-MINI-STICKER-DECAL-0018-/140988687911?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20d394a627&vxp=mtr

on order for the rear window on my truck. I think she will love them.
 
TallDan said:
Well, i'd say that you should put up a fight, but I suspect it won't get you anywhere. Sounds like you're in good shape to go electric if your panel is in the garage, maybe this is a blessing in the disguise of a jackass neighbor. Good luck with the build!
Click to expand...

Exactly ... I'm not looking to make friends.. I work 6 days a week. I just want to come home and brew in peace.. From now on garage closed... Music on... Beer in hand... No nonsense...
 
Which raises the question, do you have natural gas service at your place?

It might be cost effective to extend an NG service line into the garage and re-jet your burners. Use their own stinking rules against them.

Oh, and don't forget a sticker for the back window of your PITA neighbor's car.;)
 
processhead said:
Which raises the question, do you have natural gas service at your place?

It might be cost effective to extend an NG service line into the garage and re-jet your burners. Use their own stinking rules against them.

Oh, and don't forget a sticker for the back window of your PITA neighbor's car.;)
Click to expand...

I would be a lot cheaper for me to just run and NG line to the garage.. The only problem is the noise and ventilation issues. I have no window and over the winter leaving the garage door open isn't fun in NJ. I think I may just take some time save some money, and build my electric setup. It will be a better option in the long run.
 
P-J said:
Here is a diagram that might help you. If you don't want or need the pump outlets, just don't wire them into your setup.

Click on the image to see and save a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J
Click to expand...

I am getting conflicting info by searching forums. Should I be using 30 or 50 amp SSr's. Also on the left of the schematic where all the wiring comes in and distributes from, is the part just called a distribution block? Or do I need something more specific for the build? What part would you recommend using? I'm trying to get my parts list together.


Thanks
 
also it will have extra components for wiring in a keyed on off switch and alarms for your PIDs

you can source it cheaper possibly but this is a one stop shop for that set up.
 
NFryan said:
I am getting conflicting info by searching forums. Should I be using 30 or 50 amp SSr's. Also on the left of the schematic where all the wiring comes in and distributes from, is the part just called a distribution block? Or do I need something more specific for the build? What part would you recommend using? I'm trying to get my parts list together.


Thanks
Click to expand...

Go with a 40amp SSR. It will run a lot cooler than a 30amp. I dont think you would need to go with 50.
 
noremorse1 said:
These are great too. Not a bad price either. You would probably save a max of $5 - $10 sourcing yourself.
Click to expand...

How much would I probably save buying the kit and the addition receptacles, wiring, and connectors. As opposed to the complete turn key controller? (roughly)
 
Also for this basic kit it gives me 2 additional options:

Upgrade to 1 63a and 2 25a DIN Contactors (recommend) $25.00
And
Upgraded heat sinks $45.00

Are either of this necessary or worth adding?
 
P-J said:
If I can help you in any way please let me know. Explanations, changes to the diagram, sources for the appropriate parts - et.al.

P-J
Click to expand...

PJ - Just a few more questions (sorry i know im relentless the last 2 days).. So my HLT already has an screw in thermometer gauge. In an attempt to go electric on a budget and quickly I had the following questions:

If I wire up my control box do I need to have temp probes connected to the pids? Or can I just run the PID's in manual mode? I'm not familiar with them. If they are in manual mode do they just control the electric output to the element? Down the road I could add the temp probe to the HLT but for now I see no need. As for the boil kettle I dont think i will need on on there at all. I just need the ability to control the element and dial it back from full boil correct?

I was going to add the XLR connection to my control box just in case I wanted the ability to add the probe to the HLT down the road.

I just want to make sure everything will work as I need right now with the pids in manual mode and having no temp sensor..
 
The pids need to have a temp probe connected or they don't work, but you could get a cheap one and upgrade to an RTD when you can
 
NFryan said:
PJ - Just a few more questions (sorry i know im relentless the last 2 days).. So my HLT already has an screw in thermometer gauge. In an attempt to go electric on a budget and quickly I had the following questions:

If I wire up my control box do I need to have temp probes connected to the pids? Or can I just run the PID's in manual mode? I'm not familiar with them. If they are in manual mode do they just control the electric output to the element? Down the road I could add the temp probe to the HLT but for now I see no need. As for the boil kettle I dont think i will need on on there at all. I just need the ability to control the element and dial it back from full boil correct?

I was going to add the XLR connection to my control box just in case I wanted the ability to add the probe to the HLT down the road.

I just want to make sure everything will work as I need right now with the pids in manual mode and having no temp sensor..
Click to expand...
Quick answer: Yes you need to have temp probes connected to the PIDs for them to function. That is a must.

P-J
 
noremorse1 said:
Go with a 40amp SSR. It will run a lot cooler than a 30amp. I dont think you would need to go with 50.
Click to expand...

A 40 Amp will run the same temperature as a 25 Amp. Dissipated wattage depends on the current passed through the SSR and not it's maximum rating.

Passing 22.6 Amps through either one will result in about 22.6 watts of heat that you need to find a way to get rid of. If you have a limited budget invest in a better heat sink instead of a higher rated SSR, or invest in a small PC style fan to blow air across your heat sink.

My 25 Amp SSRs have run fine for over a year controlling two 5500 Watt elements. They are both tied to the same heat sink I bought from http://www.heatsinkusa.com/. I have a 80mm PC cooling fan blowing air across the heat sink.
 
NFryan said:
Also for this basic kit it gives me 2 additional options:

Upgrade to 1 63a and 2 25a DIN Contactors (recommend) $25.00
And
Upgraded heat sinks $45.00

Are either of this necessary or worth adding?
Click to expand...

I would upgrade the contactors. I wouldn't upgrade the heat sink. I brew in my basement and it stays very cool. The ones provided are sufficient. You could always go with the one provided and, if you notice them getting excessively hot, buy used ones on ebay for a fraction of the price.
 
NFryan said:
How much would I probably save buying the kit and the addition receptacles, wiring, and connectors. As opposed to the complete turn key controller? (roughly)
Click to expand...

Well... they sell the turnkey controllers for 1,450 and 1,600. You could easily build the full product for $500-600 assuming you already have the kettles and pumps.
 
P-J said:
Quick answer: Yes you need to have temp probes connected to the PIDs for them to function. That is a must.

P-J
Click to expand...

I came across this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-planned-ebiab-keggle-cheap-simple-controller-404174/

The poster claims it works just fine. It seems to be exactly what i need to jump ship from propane to electric quickly.. My electrician buddy is putting a 40am gfci breaker in my panel and a 4 prong outlet near it...

Anyone tried the above solution or see any problems I may have with it?
 
NFryan said:
I came across this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-planned-ebiab-keggle-cheap-simple-controller-404174/

The poster claims it works just fine. It seems to be exactly what i need to jump ship from propane to electric quickly.. My electrician buddy is putting a 40am gfci breaker in my panel and a 4 prong outlet near it...

Anyone tried the above solution or see any problems I may have with it?
Click to expand...
You can get that controller from Auber Instruments and it would work well for you.
40A Solid State Voltage Regulator, High power SSVR
 

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