Foam and time, what is the connection?

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Miraculix

Miraculix

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Hello fellow brewers,

one question is bothering me since ages. I know that other guys are experiencing the same, so hear me out.

I bottle with priming sugar. The first 2 weeks, there is zero head retention, no matter how well the beer is already carbed. Sometimes, with higher ambient temperature, the bottle carbonation is already done within 6-10 days in the bottle but head retention = 0.

3 weeks later, all the head is there. Same beer, same carbonation level, same glass, everything same. I can reproduce this with all my beers. first 2-3 weeks, very bad to 0 head retention, afterwards huge improvement. The longer the better, but usually no further improvement after 1 month.

WHY!?

I cannot really find a reason why this might be happing.

Still some yeast in suspension somehow disturbs the foam? I don't know..... Something else? But what?

Cheers!

(drinking a fully carbed but 0 head 2 weeks old beer)

M
 
Small vs big CO2 bubbles/tight vs loose carbonation? It's been a long time since I bottle conditioned a beer, but that was my experience.
 
Miraculix said:
Hello fellow brewers,

one question is bothering me since ages. I know that other guys are experiencing the same, so hear me out.

I bottle with priming sugar. The first 2 weeks, there is zero head retention, no matter how well the beer is already carbed. Sometimes, with higher ambient temperature, the bottle carbonation is already done within 6-10 days in the bottle but head retention = 0.

3 weeks later, all the head is there. Same beer, same carbonation level, same glass, everything same. I can reproduce this with all my beers. first 2-3 weeks, very bad to 0 head retention, afterwards huge improvement. The longer the better, but usually no further improvement after 1 month.

WHY!?

I cannot really find a reason why this might be happing.

Still some yeast in suspension somehow disturbs the foam? I don't know..... Something else? But what?

Cheers!

(drinking a fully carbed but 0 head 2 weeks old beer)

M
Click to expand...

When the bottle carbonation first happens, the active ferment puts the yeast and other particulates into suspension. Opening the bottle allows a lot more Co2 to come out of solution due to those nucleation points. After a while longer, those nucleation points are now compacted at the bottom of the bottle. Less co2 comes out of solution up front and therefore constantly feeds the head from underneath. That's my theory anyway.
 
Bobby_M said:
When the bottle carbonation first happens, the active ferment puts the yeast and other particulates into suspension. Opening the bottle allows a lot more Co2 to come out of solution due to those nucleation points. After a while longer, those nucleation points are now compacted at the bottom of the bottle. Less co2 comes out of solution up front and therefore constantly feeds the head from underneath. That's my theory anyway.
Click to expand...
Does not work like that I'm afraid. I got a glass with an edging on the bottom, forcing the CO2 to come out of solution at elevated speed. Same poor head retention in that glass as in others. Beers that have aged a bit have great to superhuman head retention in that glass, in comparison.

It is not only that the head won't start, it is more like a cider. You have this initial foam when pouring but it is gone in no time. Completely different story after a few weeks.....
 
McMullan said:
Small vs big CO2 bubbles/tight vs loose carbonation? It's been a long time since I bottle conditioned a beer, but that was my experience.
Click to expand...

How should this be happening on a physical level? Co2 in solution is Co2 in solution. There is no such thing as a tight or loose carbonation imo.
 
I would like to know this too as my Saison's head retention just gets better and better. Loads of low alpha hops improved the head on my beers greatly as well as carbing them to 3.0+ vol in the bottle. But after a few weeks (carbonation is done in a few days for me) it's fluff city.

its-like-a-chrysler-posi-trac-no-one-knows-how-it-worksit-just-does.jpg
 
I've wondered this as well with spunding lagers. People will say that the carbonation is smoother (which to me it does perceive that way) but like you said CO2 in solution is CO2 in solution. I primarily spund for ease and because I can. I FEEL like it makes the carbonation smoother but I don't actually understand how or why it does.
 
CO2 in solution is not CO2 in solution. It takes time to get tightly carbonated. Spunding/naturally conditioning in a sealed FV is different. With much more active yeast in suspension, tight carbonation is achieved much sooner. Those tiny 'Champaign' bubbles appear sooner. I suspect the fundamental physics aren't too far from Bobby's model.
 
Gus_13 said:
I've wondered this as well with spunding lagers. People will say that the carbonation is smoother (which to me it does perceive that way) but like you said CO2 in solution is CO2 in solution. I primarily spund for ease and because I can. I FEEL like it makes the carbonation smoother but I don't actually understand how or why it does.
Click to expand...
I think there is something going on on the chemical level. It is not only that the foam won't stay at the beginning, I also percieve the whole beer as less creamy, less mouthfeel if one would want to call it that way. I think there might be somehting going on with these foam positive molecules that have the hydrophobe and hydrophil ends. Maybe they are blocked at the beginning by whatever? Or they are not created yet?
 
Hopefully, it's something at the chemical level, because without that you'd have an empty glass. In fact, you wouldn't even have a glass 😱
 
I beat whipping cream with sugar and make whipped cream that will make peaks that stand up. My wife uses the same whipping cream and sugar and can't make the peaks stand.

I know the why of that but not the heading on the beer. My whipped cream stand up great peaks because I am more patient and will only try to do one thing at a time, giving the whipping time. My wife gets distracted with other things to do and doesn't whip it as long. I suspect the lack of heading on the young beer and the whipped cream that won't hold peaks to be related.
 
This always seems to be an endless debate especially when we start mixing in natural vs forced carb and other variables. What is probably happening is that the bottles opened earlier are carbonated, but not "fully" carbonated. If you could measure it with a "Zahm" or similar device to gauge total carb pressure, you'd find the carbonation is not yet done, hence the large bubbles and low head and mouthfeel. Co2 in solution, to the contrary of other statements, is just Co2 in solution. That part is a law of physics that depends on other factors that can make the difference in carbonated beer.... Time. That same time is also considered "aging" or "conditioning" as a brewery may do in a tank under cold and pressure to get a carbonated beer with proper aging to have the mouthfeel and tight carbonation feel. We always hear that fine bottle aged beer with natural carbonation have better characteristics than force carbonated product... well the magic is usually time, not the natural carbonation method itself. (lots of good arguments on that, feel free to search :) ) Levels of carbonation have a huge affect on the taste and feel of the finished product, but many times homebrewers fail to let the product actually finish. Time also allows, to some level, a chemical changes in the beer that also affect the taste, texture, and head retention. There is no simple answer other than you can't go around the physics, and you can't rush the finish. If there is a consistent problem with all finished beers and all the controls and aging are spot-on I'd suggest evaluating the entire process from the start that can rob the vitals from the finished beer.
 
beerjournl said:
This always seems to be an endless debate especially when we start mixing in natural vs forced carb and other variables. What is probably happening is that the bottles opened earlier are carbonated, but not "fully" carbonated. If you could measure it with a "Zahm" or similar device to gauge total carb pressure, you'd find the carbonation is not yet done, hence the large bubbles and low head and mouthfeel. Co2 in solution, to the contrary of other statements, is just Co2 in solution. That part is a law of physics that depends on other factors that can make the difference in carbonated beer.... Time. That same time is also considered "aging" or "conditioning" as a brewery may do in a tank under cold and pressure to get a carbonated beer with proper aging to have the mouthfeel and tight carbonation feel. We always hear that fine bottle aged beer with natural carbonation have better characteristics than force carbonated product... well the magic is usually time, not the natural carbonation method itself. (lots of good arguments on that, feel free to search :) ) Levels of carbonation have a huge affect on the taste and feel of the finished product, but many times homebrewers fail to let the product actually finish. Time also allows, to some level, a chemical changes in the beer that also affect the taste, texture, and head retention. There is no simple answer other than you can't go around the physics, and you can't rush the finish. If there is a consistent problem with all finished beers and all the controls and aging are spot-on I'd suggest evaluating the entire process from the start that can rob the vitals from the finished beer.
Click to expand...
It is definitely not unfinished carbonation or low leves of co2 because of sugars not being converted to alcohol and co2 at the moment of trying the beer. I had the same effect with lowest carbonation mild type of beers and almost overcarbed pale lagers. Same storry, different carbonation levels.

Time certainly plays the major role and this is basically the reason for this thread. What is happening during that time that makes the difference?
 
Last edited:
for some reason by chance i was watching an episode of good eats, where alton was making merangue...and he recmomended adding a bit of cream of tarter to the whites, helps denature the protien to make them easier to whip?

maybe something there?
 
I wonder if it’s the same process that happens with my kegs. I burst carbonate, then the first few days the beer pours like a cider and I am working to get any head. After that it is great for a week. Then beyond that I am fighting the foam. I always assumed it was just getting more carbonated sitting on the co2 even though I keep it at 8 psi, or that my lines were set up wrong. But maybe it’s just natural maturation of the beer. Still would like to figure something out for the fighting the foam issue, but I guess that is for another post.
 
Recent experience, don't know if it dovetails into what @Miraculix is talking about.

Brewed @Yooper's oatmeal stout, with the addition of some lactose in the boil. Pitched S-04, and fermented fully in just under 2 weeks (it had been at terminal gravity a few days). I usually let beers like this spend at least 3 weeks in the fermenter, but being done, thought I'd go ahead and bottle.

Bottled, carbed to 2.6 vols with corn sugar, and conditioned at 70-72F in a warm room. Tried one at 2 weeks--very little carbonation. Waited another week, tried another. Plenty of carbonation, but the head is 1/2", fizzy, soda pop-like, which collapses in minutes. Not creamy, no lacing on the glass. Beer tastes fine, just lacks that rich, creamy foam that should be seen in a beer with 8% oats and 4% flaked barley in the grist.

I'm wondering if leaving it in the fermenter longer might have improved the head. I'm ruling out the bottles and glassware--I never use any kind of detergents on either.
 
MaxStout said:
Recent experience, don't know if it dovetails into what @Miraculix is talking about.

Brewed @Yooper's oatmeal stout, with the addition of some lactose in the boil. Pitched S-04, and fermented fully in just under 2 weeks (it had been at terminal gravity a few days). I usually let beers like this spend at least 3 weeks in the fermenter, but being done, thought I'd go ahead and bottle.

Bottled, carbed to 2.6 vols with corn sugar, and conditioned at 70-72F in a warm room. Tried one at 2 weeks--very little carbonation. Waited another week, tried another. Plenty of carbonation, but the head is 1/2", fizzy, soda pop-like, which collapses in minutes. Not creamy, no lacing on the glass. Beer tastes fine, just lacks that rich, creamy foam that should be seen in a beer with 8% oats and 4% flaked barley in the grist.

I'm wondering if leaving it in the fermenter longer might have improved the head. I'm ruling out the bottles and glassware--I never use any kind of detergents on either.
Click to expand...

I bet that this is exactly what I am talking about. Wait two to three more weeks and expect a huge difference. Btw, one common misconception, oats do not enhance foam, they actually destroy it once a certain threshhold has been reached (about 30% of the grist, no problem for you). But oats are great for yeast health, I made experiments which really showed that the yeast was happier in the beer with 10% oats in it.

Spivey24 said:
I wonder if it’s the same process that happens with my kegs. I burst carbonate, then the first few days the beer pours like a cider and I am working to get any head. After that it is great for a week. Then beyond that I am fighting the foam. I always assumed it was just getting more carbonated sitting on the co2 even though I keep it at 8 psi, or that my lines were set up wrong. But maybe it’s just natural maturation of the beer. Still would like to figure something out for the fighting the foam issue, but I guess that is for another post.
Click to expand...

Sounds pretty much like what I am experiencing when bottling!
 
FWIW, here's a pic of the oatmeal stout pour I'm enjoying now. A few minutes after I took this pic, the head dissipated to almost nothing. But the stout tastes great, with good aroma and mouthfeel, so I'm not terribly disappointed. Besides, I brewed this for my wife's birthday (one of the few beer styles she really enjoys), and she couldn't give two shiats about the head retention. Still...it kind of bugs me.
OatmealStout.jpg
 
MaxStout said:
A few minutes after I took this pic, the head dissipated to almost nothing.
Click to expand...

By the image you posted, it looks like the glass isn't "beer clean". The bubbles seem to be sticking to the side of the glass which is a tell-tale sign that there is some film on the interior surfaces.

This is an old but very good article which illustrates what I'm saying.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/beer-foam/
 
MaxStout said:
FWIW, here's a pic of the oatmeal stout pour I'm enjoying now. A few minutes after I took this pic, the head dissipated to almost nothing. But the stout tastes great, with good aroma and mouthfeel, so I'm not terribly disappointed. Besides, I brewed this for my wife's birthday (one of the few beer styles she really enjoys), and she couldn't give two shiats about the head retention. Still...it kind of bugs me.
View attachment 759903
Click to expand...
Wait two to three weeks and let's see how it looks then.
 
MicroMickey said:
By the image you posted, it looks like the glass isn't "beer clean". The bubbles seem to be sticking to the side of the glass which is a tell-tale sign that there is some film on the interior surfaces.

This is an old but very good article which illustrates what I'm saying.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/beer-foam/
Click to expand...
This might the issue sometimes, but at least for my beers, I can rule that out completely, as it is always the same. First few weeks zero foam, afterwards good to great foam, depending on the recipe. I always use the same glasses and cleaning regimes. To me the beer on the picture looks axactly how my beers look within the first few weeks. Big bubbles that won't last.
 
Over the years I've noticed that it takes about 2.5 to 3 weeks in the bottle to get that whipped cream head that most any brewer would be proud of. Kegged beer takes a little less at around 2 weeks. I really can't find an answer. It isn't really a matter of carbonation but conditioning; not the same thing.
 
This paper is a bit more up to date. A little bit. I enjoyed the 2nd paragraph, where the reader is informed of the authors’ intention, in the name of science, to go out on the piss to record detailed observations of beer foam behaviour in the real world, outside the lab. They clocked off Friday lunch time and were on the lash until 3am Saturday morning. Sadly, the research never got published. They left all the data in a Chinese takeaway.
 
I see this all the time in kegged beers, if in a slightly different way.
At first, I will get large bubbles when I pour. The beer is carbed fine, but when CO2 comes out of solution either on the pour or sitting for the 13 femtoseconds it sits in the glass, the bubbles are large.
A couple weeks later, near the end of the keg, the bubble are TINY. There are more of them, but they are minuscule, multitudinous, and marvelous.
 
I asked a pro brewer about this and his response was:

"My take is that CO2 gets dissolved into beer and then takes a while to become carbonic acid (H2CO3). My opinion is that when H2CO3 forms, over the course of several days, it will result in the small, champagne-like bubbles that signal a well-carbonated beer, similar to bottle conditioned Duvel. Prior to becoming H2CO3, the CO2 is not fully dissolved and the beer can have a slight 2-dimensional flat texture. After becoming H2CO3 the beer takes on a whole new texture that is richer and more enjoyable."

It makes sense to me as it seems to follow what I've observed but didn't understand.
 
balrog said:
I see this all the time in kegged beers, if in a slightly different way.
At first, I will get large bubbles when I pour. The beer is carbed fine, but when CO2 comes out of solution either on the pour or sitting for the 13 femtoseconds it sits in the glass, the bubbles are large.
A couple weeks later, near the end of the keg, the bubble are TINY. There are more of them, but they are minuscule, multitudinous, and marvelous.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've witnessed the same. First big bubbles that go quickly and then tiny bubbles that stay much longer. I think this shows that there are some changes happening on the chemical level. The more hydrophobic polypeptides are available, the smaller the bubbles and the longer the foam stays. Bubble size has somehting to do with surface tension I believe. So it looks like during that time the beer just sits there more and more hydrophobic polypeptides seem to become available. I do not know if they are bound by something before, or if they are somehow created. Or maybe there is some foam decreasing agent in the beer that falls apart with time? Who knows.

MicroMickey said:
I asked a pro brewer about this and his response was:

"My take is that CO2 gets dissolved into beer and then takes a while to become carbonic acid (H2CO3). My opinion is that when H2CO3 forms, over the course of several days, it will result in the small, champagne-like bubbles that signal a well-carbonated beer, similar to bottle conditioned Duvel. Prior to becoming H2CO3, the CO2 is not fully dissolved and the beer can have a slight 2-dimensional flat texture. After becoming H2CO3 the beer takes on a whole new texture that is richer and more enjoyable."

It makes sense to me as it seems to follow what I've observed but didn't understand.
Click to expand...
I am not 100% sure but I think this is not how it works. CO2 solved in water is carbonic acid. It does not have to become carbonic acid over time, it instantly is carbonic acid as this is the mechanism of solution itself, which turns CO2 into carbonic acid. I think the reason for foam anhancement over time has somehting to do with those hydrophobic polypeptides.
 
Miraculix said:
I am not 100% sure but I think this is not how it works. CO2 solved in water is carbonic acid. It does not have to become carbonic acid over time, it instantly is carbonic acid as this is the mechanism of solution itself, which turns CO2 into carbonic acid. I think the reason for foam anhancement over time has somehting to do with those hydrophobic polypeptides.
Click to expand...

The key here is "dissolved in water".
 

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