Flash boiler

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WortMonger said:
Dang this is getting really interesting now!!! I love this thread and all the workmanship. You guys are rockin!
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Thank you.

I am building another coil now for boiling. I am hoping it boils at a faster rate.

If this pans out it will be my heating element for the boil and then, I will kill the heat and allow the water to flow and it will become my imersion chiller. I am also in the midst of moding up my pump head to another drive assembly to make it variable speed.
 
Very cool indeed! I look forward to reading much more on this in the near future. I am still in the midst of building my boiler, and want to use mine for running mash liquids through as well as instant hot water. I'm paying attention. I have read Kladues thread several times now and others. I'm just trying to find the best approach for my brewery.
 
When the boiling with steam is worked out the possibility of brewing with a vented boiler indoors becomes a possibility. With no unvented combustion to deal with you just have the water vapor venting from the boil kettle as the remaning design task. With a mixer tee in the line from the recirculation pump to the sparge return line the need to change the steam/water routing is just one time to send steam to the boil kettle coil, strike water, step heating and sparge go through mixer tee into MLT.
 
beerthirty said:
WM, are you sure you want to try and run wort through a flash boiler? Even with the heat turned low, it seems you would ahve a high chance of scorching your wort.
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I have been doing it with no problems at all. You have to run the flame really low, about as low as it will go and keep the wort flowing as fast as you can. With my marsh pump trying to push it thru 63 feet of tubing it works great at full flow.
 
:ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban:
I played hookie today just cause. So I decided to work on the boiler project and get my new coil done. I have a little bit on it to redo (I did a small oops) but it is all together right now and working. I have done 2 test runs and I am Happy! This new coil kicks some seriuos butt. I ran everything the same as all my other tests except, this time I didn't insulate the steam line.

So, running 1 qt/min and at max fire I brought 6 gallons of 50* water to a boil in only 20min.:D After letting it run a little while, I wanted to see it maintain a boil with no lid and it did. So I shut off the fire and let the water run to see about how well the coil would chill the water down. In 4 min I hit 149* but shortly after it kinda stalled at 130*. Now I didn't let it run for very long. I stopped running water through it after 8min. I wanted to see how long it would take to boil again from a higher temp. Trying to simulate a sparge situation. I also removed the insulation from the pot on this run and it boiled again from 120* in 14min.:) That might seem a little odd but the first several degrees of increase are extremly fast. Starting at 50* it only took 5min to get to 103*.

Here is a teaser of the new coil I made. This one goes in the top and out the bottom. It is 1/4" tubing and has 4 10' coils.
P1010110-1.jpg





Edit: I just deleted my videos cause they were freezing up my internet. I don't know why they would do that. I got rid of all three I had. Any ideas on this?
 
GreenMonti said:
:ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban:
I played hookie today just cause. So I decided to work on the boiler project and get my new coil done. I have a little bit on it to redo (I did a small oops) but it is all together right now and working. I have done 2 test runs and I am Happy! This new coil kicks some seriuos butt. I ran everything the same as all my other tests except, this time I didn't insulate the steam line.

So, running 1 qt/min and at max fire I brought 6 gallons of 50* water to a boil in only 20min.:D After letting it run a little while, I wanted to see it maintain a boil with no lid and it did. So I shut off the fire and let the water run to see about how well the coil would chill the water down. In 4 min I hit 149* but shortly after it kinda stalled at 130*. Now I didn't let it run for very long. I stopped running water through it after 8min. I wanted to see how long it would take to boil again from a higher temp. Trying to simulate a sparge situation. I also removed the insulation from the pot on this run and it boiled again from 120* in 14min.:) That might seem a little odd but the first several degrees of increase are extremly fast. Starting at 50* it only took 5min to get to 103*.

Here is a teaser of the new coil I made. This one goes in the top and out the bottom. It is 1/4" tubing and has 4 10' coils.
P1010110-1.jpg





Edit: I just deleted my videos cause they were freezing up my internet. I don't know why they would do that. I got rid of all three I had. Any ideas on this?
Click to expand...

Cool, they keep getting prettier and prettier! have you tried the new coil yet?
 
GreenMonti said:
:ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban:
I played hookie today just cause. So I decided to work on the boiler project and get my new coil done. I have a little bit on it to redo (I did a small oops) but it is all together right now and working. I have done 2 test runs and I am Happy! This new coil kicks some seriuos butt. I ran everything the same as all my other tests except, this time I didn't insulate the steam line.

So, running 1 qt/min and at max fire I brought 6 gallons of 50* water to a boil in only 20min.:D After letting it run a little while, I wanted to see it maintain a boil with no lid and it did. So I shut off the fire and let the water run to see about how well the coil would chill the water down. In 4 min I hit 149* but shortly after it kinda stalled at 130*. Now I didn't let it run for very long. I stopped running water through it after 8min. I wanted to see how long it would take to boil again from a higher temp. Trying to simulate a sparge situation. I also removed the insulation from the pot on this run and it boiled again from 120* in 14min.:) That might seem a little odd but the first several degrees of increase are extremly fast. Starting at 50* it only took 5min to get to 103*.

Here is a teaser of the new coil I made. This one goes in the top and out the bottom. It is 1/4" tubing and has 4 10' coils.
Click to expand...



Mista_Sparkle said:
Cool, they keep getting prettier and prettier! have you tried the new coil yet?
Click to expand...


Yes. That's where all the new info comes from, running this new coil.
 
what other sort of adjustments are you making to test with this boiler? is it sitting on an open flame or does it have a tube around it as well?

edit: perhaps you could put some sort of smaller piping inside each coil to better utilize the air flow up the middle of each loop? if you did this however, you may need to put some sort of baffle or something in it to ensure turbulent flow.
 
Mista_Sparkle said:
what other sort of adjustments are you making to test with this boiler? is it sitting on an open flame or does it have a tube around it as well?

edit: perhaps you could put some sort of smaller piping inside each coil to better utilize the air flow up the middle of each loop? if you did this however, you may need to put some sort of baffle or something in it to ensure turbulent flow.
Click to expand...

I am not making a new boiler. I love my current boiler.
That new coil goes inside the kettle. It is there to transfer heat into the wort. Here is a pic of my nasty test pot and the new coil. I DO NOT BREW IN THIS POT.
P1010114-1.jpg
 
Here is how it was setup.

My current boiler on the right. The new coil is in the kettle on the left.
P1010113-1.jpg


Here are a couple of pics of the new coil. When I fix my mistake I will resolder the fittings back on with plain low temp plumbers solder. I did the braze to be sure and fill the gaps. I have since tested the low temp solder and it fills it all right up. Since THIS coil will not be exposed to high temps it can get the low temp stuff.
P1010115-1.jpg

P1010116-1.jpg




EDIT: Argh, new page. The pic of the new coil in the kettle is back one page.
 
Fantastic Build !!!, you are one up on me now by boiling with steam, I have not built or tried to build a coil for boiling. You are the exclusive member of the boiling with steam coils in homebrew system club, closest comparison is the large brewery boil kettles with steam coils for heat source. This will open up system design with a single compact heat source and multiple system functions, with proper venting and safety devices it should work indoors. With your last test it appears that the heat supplied by the flash boiler boiling 1 Qt/Minute is in the range of 138K Btu,s /40KW, more than enough to get the job done in a 5-10 gallon system.
 
kladue said:
Fantastic Build !!!, you are one up on me now by boiling with steam, I have not built or tried to build a coil for boiling. You are the exclusive member of the boiling with steam coils in homebrew system club, closest comparison is the large brewery boil kettles with steam coils for heat source. This will open up system design with a single compact heat source and multiple system functions, with proper venting and safety devices it should work indoors. With your last test it appears that the heat supplied by the flash boiler boiling 1 Qt/Minute is in the range of 138K Btu,s /40KW, more than enough to get the job done in a 5-10 gallon system.
Click to expand...

Thank You!

None of this would have come too pass with out your help! Thank You for all you have done!

Here is a video of the boil. Enjoy.:D
http://s385.photobucket.com/albums/oo300/pentair/?action=view&current=P1010111-1.flv
 
thats a pretty cool project. your basicly doin it like an actual brewery now. do you think you could power a steam jacketed kettle with that contraption?
 
That thing is awesome! Now that you have a steam generator, all you need to do is figure out how to SIP (steam in place) a conical fermenter.
 
Couple of questions: 1) Do they make a smaller diameter tubing, and would that work? 2) How much displacement do you have with the coils-in the kettle? 3) Would wrapping the coils on the inside of the kettle in one long segment work (or how much would it deter??? > asking due to hop bag etc in my kettle giving me more room than your middle placement)? 4) If the kettle were insulated, how much more efficient could you get it? Could you possibly use less flame in this situation? I'm thinking I would like my kettle to look like my other two brewing vessels. They look/work sweet and a kettle would be kicka$$! 5) Could the output be ran back into the kettle for equalizing the boil-off rate [Math of Gravity aside, as I know it would be lower]?

OK, I think that is all I have right now. I am so excited I can't NOT ask a million questions :) Awesome build!
 
Mista_Sparkle said:
Very cool Monti!

so that nozzle you have on the end is giving you that little bit of pressure I assume?
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Yes, the nozzle is that little bit needed to get the increased flow up in temp. Once the fire is killed the thing drops to zero almost instantly. I feel this is still far more safe then the pressure cookers which have more steam stored in them.

trailblazer said:
thats a pretty cool project. your basicly doin it like an actual brewery now. do you think you could power a steam jacketed kettle with that contraption?
Click to expand...

I am not to sure really. Probly not with this model. You would get better heat transfere but I don't think this boiler will kick out enough steam and you would loose a lot of heat to the jacket. Just a guess.

Bigscience said:
That thing is awesome! Now that you have a steam generator, all you need to do is figure out how to SIP (steam in place) a conical fermenter.
Click to expand...

Should be easy enough. Turn down the flow and pump out a more dry steam at around 300*. Just need an off schute.:D
 
WortMonger said:
Couple of questions: 1) Do they make a smaller diameter tubing, and would that work? 2) How much displacement do you have with the coils-in the kettle? 3) Would wrapping the coils on the inside of the kettle in one long segment work (or how much would it deter??? > asking due to hop bag etc in my kettle giving me more room than your middle placement)? 4) If the kettle were insulated, how much more efficient could you get it? Could you possibly use less flame in this situation? I'm thinking I would like my kettle to look like my other two brewing vessels. They look/work sweet and a kettle would be kicka$$! 5) Could the output be ran back into the kettle for equalizing the boil-off rate [Math of Gravity aside, as I know it would be lower]?

OK, I think that is all I have right now. I am so excited I can't NOT ask a million questions :) Awesome build!
Click to expand...



1)- Yes they do, I have seen some real small stuff. (1/8" OD) I wouldn't use the real small stuff and I don't think I would go any smaller then the 1/4". Reason being that you have to have some steam volume to condense in the line to give up its energy.

2)- Are you making me do math?:D You owe me a beer. 1/10 of a gallon. nothing to worrie about.

3)- The reason for center placement it to create up currents from the heat. You wouldn't want a ring of bubbling water around the outside edges of your kettle. Once I am done testing the input and output will go to the side. So I can run a lid with more ease. A center placement also keeps/makes a hot spot like an element helping the steam to keep some of its energy and no give it all up too soon.

4)- In the first video the pot is insulated. I am sure that in any situation where heat loos is a concern, insulation is a good choice. However I didn't notice any real difference between the two runs with and without. Running with less flame is comming up. That's what the recirc talk is about. I plan on running the condensate into a tank and pumping it throught the boiler. Since it is going to already be at about 150* going into the boiler a much smaller fire will be required to boost it back up in temp.

5)- I am not sure it is worth the effort. A 1 hour boil will loose about 1 gallon of wort. The boiler is running a gallon through it every 4 min. Plus with the recirc system in place the water usage will be minimal. The recirc tank water which will already be hot can be used to clean up the equipment.


Thank you everyone for the kind words.:mug:
 
GreenMonti, that is awesome. If I had NG at the house that would certainly be a possibility on my list. I an really curious to see where this evolves to next :) Looks great!
 
CodeRage said:
GreenMonti, that is awesome. If I had NG at the house that would certainly be a possibility on my list. I an really curious to see where this evolves to next :) Looks great!
Click to expand...


Hey thanks,

Next up is to make it more fuel efficent.:mug:
 
I suppose that one could make smaller diameter coils and place them away from center to make room for hop bag in middle. The coils are an attempt to mimic the internal calandria boil kettle heating method with steam, which has worked better than expected. The ability to dump a lot of heat into the wort with the steam heated coils open up the possibility of using materials not suited for direct flame heating as boil kettles. The flash boiler could be scaled up to match the heating requirements for a larger system fairly easily with larger coils, chimney tube and burner. Still this is an extremly impressive boiler in terms of size, output, cost to build, and flexibility of use from water heating to superheated steam injection and boiling wort. The mayhem potential is smaller as only a pint of water at a time is at boil temperatures, even less during steaming, not like gallons of boiling water in a pressure cooker under up to 15 PSI.
 
beerthirty said:
Monti may I be the first to nominate you the 2010 "you suck" award? Tough I'm doing it anyway. OK, there is a little bit of jealousy.
Really good job, once I get my current brew problems figured out I may have to try this.
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:D:mug:...
 
sanch said:
sorry i missed this before. i would definitely be interested in in some diffuser help!! i was thinking of asking how much, if you would make me one, because i know mine would not turn out near the same caliber yours did, and didn't want to be a bother. I have a lot of tri clover stuff and was planing to use a big tee, in the fashion that you mentioned, and have tri clover connections on all ports of the tee so it can be easily inspected and cleaned i have an extra tee i could spare and the fittings if you might be interested in a trade of some kind ? if not just give me a price.
Click to expand...

Been more then a couple of days, but I got one ready for you. PM sent.
 
Farside said:
Is there any chance of creating a new DIY project thread dedicated to steam boiling?

I would like to replicate this setup eventually and I'm sure it would be easier to find if it wasn't hanging out in the flash boiler thread :)

Is this the setup you have?
http://www.obzest.com/Brewing/steam_boiler.png
Click to expand...

I have thought about another thread on the steam boiling side. Your right it might be best not to continue on the boiling side of the conversation. Then again, you could get the ideas/plans and see what it will do all in one read. I will probly do another thread once the recirculation is setup.

Yes, that diagram is what I am going to build now. I am going to throw a couple things together to see if my boiler will work ok with the new preheat coil I added to it. I need to make or have an adapter made for my pump. Then it is back to testing. Once a setup like the one in your diagram is in motion it should be crazy efficient.
 
Is there links to other information of steam boiling? In my Fluids/HeatXfer class we are doing a project of basically modelling a brewery from the standpoint of you guessed it Fluids and Heat Transfer. So any other threads about steam brewing would be appreciated. FYI this project got the ole interest sparked.
Thanks!
 
Monty,
you inspired my for my next build..

what about putting the coils into a conical and Whirlpool it to chill, that would leave all the sediment at the bottom and you could just dump the hop particles and the dump strait into a fermenter?
 
kickflip_mj said:
Monty,
you inspired my for my next build..

what about putting the coils into a conical and Whirlpool it to chill, that would leave all the sediment at the bottom and you could just dump the hop particles and the dump strait into a fermenter?
Click to expand...
That is too cool, I thought about the same approach for myself (that is if all this works out). Talk about easy to empty... and how bout the extra room it would add to my keggle. I would definitely do a conical bottom on an insulated boil kettle for my brewery.:rockin:
 
BakaBrew said:
Is there links to other information of steam boiling? In my Fluids/HeatXfer class we are doing a project of basically modelling a brewery from the standpoint of you guessed it Fluids and Heat Transfer. So any other threads about steam brewing would be appreciated. FYI this project got the ole interest sparked.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

The other link I am aware of is the one in FSR's sig. His is the one I read and got interested enough to PM Kladue. I am glad I got the neurons firing:D. Let me know how the research turns out.

NorCalMik said:
Is the reference to a "nozzle" the threaded piece brazed on the end or did I miss something?
Click to expand...

The "Nozzle" is not brazed on. It is the hose barb on the end of the Swagelok fitting that is spitting the mix of water and steam in the second video.

kickflip_mj said:
Monty,
you inspired my for my next build..

what about putting the coils into a conical and Whirlpool it to chill, that would leave all the sediment at the bottom and you could just dump the hop particles and the dump strait into a fermenter?
Click to expand...

I am glad I could inspire someone for a change. I am used to being a nusince.

I like the idea of a whirpool but, I think it might get a little to laminar flow to chill as quick as a recirc flowing right though the center creating lots of havic. If I was going to do a conical I would brew right inside the conical fermenter, then use the coil to run glycol or a brine soultion through for cooling to keep ferment temps. All the trube could then be dumped and no transfer needed.

WortMonger said:
That is too cool, I thought about the same approach for myself (that is if all this works out). Talk about easy to empty... and how bout the extra room it would add to my keggle. I would definitely do a conical bottom on an insulated boil kettle for my brewery.:rockin:
Click to expand...

Again with a conical on the kettle, why not make a couple of coils for a couple of conical fermenters and boil right in them?
 
How about making a "Witches Hat" conical screen with center outlet for the flat bottom boil kettles, the trub would settle along outside after whirlpool and clear wort would run through screen to pickup tube.
 
GreenMonti said:
Again with a conical on the kettle, why not make a couple of coils for a couple of conical fermenters and boil right in them?
Click to expand...
Well, because I ferment under pressure and I haven't seen a conical that can stand up to what I need it to do pressure-wise. But... If I were doing normal fermentation, I would definitely think that way for sure. I'm thinking mainly just a way to enlarge my kettle, and a way to go to steam boiling with a insulated kettle to match my other two vessels.

By the way, had another question for you guys. If I went the flash boiler route, I wouldn't need my HLT for anything other than to measure my additions to the MT. I was thinking to keep my HLT, fill it with instantly heated water (via Flash boiling), keep it at temperature with my electrically controlled element until needed, and then (here's the question) use it as a gravity fed supply for the flash boiler. Would this work? Would the steam/hot waste water go up and into the HLT under just temperature from being flash boiled? "Or" Is a pump or water pressure from a tap needed? Just curious and hope it would be possible, but this ain't my thing if you know what I mean.
 
WM, if you had a flow meter on the intake of the flash boiler I think there would be no reason for an HLT. The flash boiler would put out a certain temp of water at a certain flow rate. With a meter the flow rate would tell you how long the water had to be on to achieve a given volume at a certain temp. Adjusting both the flame and water flow would allow you to determine volume over time at a given temp for sparge. Damn that sounded confusing to me, but it makes sense in my head.
 
Seems easier to fill a tank with water that already has a sight glass with measurements on it. Then you can hold extra water for something like a steam boiling reservior. I already have the HLT and it is a really nice one. If I am going to need another tank for something else then it would be pointless, not to mention the time/flow rate/flame strength seems like a much harder thing to manage than a tank with a controller on it. I will put in slightly hotter water from the flash boiler and leave the lid off if needed, or if it is a little colder than needed the element will work. If someone came up with a automatic, set and forget type of flash boiler that was cheap... then I would reconsider.
 
What I spoke of is what I have discussed with Kevin. Yes he uses a water reservoir IIRC. But he doesn't steam boil. By adjusting the fuel and water flow you can get any desired temp from a flash boiler. If you plan on steam boiling you need an excess of water to produce the steam at a constant rate so the steam doesnt run out of water during the boil. I suppose after enough trial runs you could calculate how much was water was needed for an entire brew, it just seems easier to me to feed the flashboiler from a steady stream and monitor flow rate of water VS burner consumption. But hey I'm an idiot and need to learn a lot more about steam before attempting this. ;)
 
Has anyone tried valving their steam/condensate outlet to get a higher coil temp? Also if you could do a CF heat exchanger to preheat your incoming boiler water with your steam outlet you could really increase your efficiency. There's still a lot of energy left in that condensate leaving.
 

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