Flanders red ale/critique

[jan_b19]

Hi,

Going to brew a flanders red ale soon and was wondering if someone has any experience with it and if you could critique the recipe I'm planning to use.

This is a Rodenbach inspired beer, Rodenbach is a blend of 25-10% old tot 75-90% young beer. So I need 2 brews, one i'll make the first beer soon and I'll make a year after the first one.

for the old beer:
main fermentation: with Wyeast German Ale 1007.
lagering for at least one year with Wyeast roeselare 3763 and oak shavings/chips in a plastic/glass carboy or without chips in a oak barrel

Young beer:
main fermentation: Wyeast German Ale 1007.
lagering: Wyeast roeselare 3763 1-2 months

Then I'll mix the 2 beers to taste.

Does the treated water profile look ok?
If you look at the color of the mash and the color the beer should have you'll see it doesn't add up but the beer should (if everything works out) darken during the lagering.

Beer type: Flanders brown/red ale
OG 1.070
FG 1.016
Efficiency: 70%
Attenuation: 74.3%
ABV: 7.0%
IBU: 15
SRM: 28.5
Boil time: 90 minutes
Boil size: 8.7
Batch size: 5.3 gallons(fermentor)
Total grist weight: 12.6 lbs
Mashing water: 4.4 gallons
Sparge water: 4.3 gallons
water to grist ratio: 1.4 qt/lb

Fermentables:

Belgian pale-ale : 8.8 lb
Cara crystal 45L : 1.3 lb
Chocolate malt 300L: 2.0 oz
Flaked corn : 2.3 lb

Hops:
East kent Goldings: 0.6 oz @ 90
Saaz : 0.4 oz @ 15

Other ingredients:
Oak shavings/chips: 0.5 oz @ lagering

Yeast:
Main fermentation: Wyeast 1070 German Ale
Starter, pitching at 64°F

Lagering: Wyeast 3637 Roeselare
No starter.

Water:
Tap water: (ppm)
Ca: 72
Mg: 22
Na: 80
So4: 152
Cl: 69
HCO3: 463

adjustments:

Dilute with 78% distilled water
gypsum: 1.4 g
calcium chloride: 1.4 g

Mash: 0.8 g chalk, 0.8 g lime and 4.7 grams tartaric acid 88%
Sparge: 8.4 g tartaric acid 88%

This should give me:
Ca: 87
Mg: 5
Na: 18
SO4: 56
Cl: 41
HCO3: 53

and a mash pH of 5.4

mash schedule:

strike water: 132F
mash in: 20 min 125F
40 min 143F
40 min 161F
Sparging 172F

 

[microbusbrewery]

I don't know that I'm an expert, but I make quite a few Flanders Reds. I tend to prefer my sours on the more aggressively sour side, so pH in the low 3s.

A couple concerns, what temperature are you lagering at? Typical lagering temps will be too cold for the lactobacillus and pediococcus to develop much sourness. You don't want it too warm, but room temps around 68F (20C) would work better. If you want a more sour beer, consider pitching Roeselare day 1 and let it ferment at 68F.

Re oak, while Flanders Reds typically age in oak foeders, the oak is usually neutral. It's more for inoculating the cultures and allowing the beer to breathe (micro-oxygenation). Too much oak character would be inappropriate, so I'd add the oak late in the process so that you can rack it if it picks up too much oak.

Keep the IBUs low. Definitely less than 10, preferably less than 6. I usually use aged hops in my sours, so around 0 IBUs. This way it doesn't inhibit lactic acid bacteria.

I can't comment much on the water. I do build water for IPAs and lagers, but I usually just cut my tap water with a little RO water for my sours.

Grain bill looks ok. I'd consider maybe adding some Special B and/or Aromatic Malt. I really like Spelt malt in sours. My understanding is it adds a lot of proteins, something the brett and bugs like for the long haul. I'd question doing a step mash. Rather do a single infusion around 158F. Again, brett and bugs will appreciate the long chain sugars.

 

[jan_b19]

I don't know that I'm an expert, but I make quite a few Flanders Reds. I tend to prefer my sours on the more aggressively sour side, so pH in the low 3s.

A couple concerns, what temperature are you lagering at? Typical lagering temps will be too cold for the lactobacillus and pediococcus to develop much sourness. You don't want it too warm, but room temps around 68F (20C) would work better. If you want a more sour beer, consider pitching Roeselare day 1 and let it ferment at 68F.

Re oak, while Flanders Reds typically age in oak foeders, the oak is usually neutral. It's more for inoculating the cultures and allowing the beer to breathe (micro-oxygenation). Too much oak character would be inappropriate, so I'd add the oak late in the process so that you can rack it if it picks up too much oak.

Keep the IBUs low. Definitely less than 10, preferably less than 6. I usually use aged hops in my sours, so around 0 IBUs. This way it doesn't inhibit lactic acid bacteria.

I can't comment much on the water. I do build water for IPAs and lagers, but I usually just cut my tap water with a little RO water for my sours.

Grain bill looks ok. I'd consider maybe adding some Special B and/or Aromatic Malt. I really like Spelt malt in sours. My understanding is it adds a lot of proteins, something the brett and bugs like for the long haul. I'd question doing a step mash. Rather do a single infusion around 158F. Again, brett and bugs will appreciate the long chain sugars.

Hi,

Sorry i was on a short vacation, I was planning to lager the beer in my basement ( it's about 16-17C (61F) at the moment), but after reading your comment I might just let it lager at the top of the stairs to to basement ( 18C (64F)).

I have an old unused oak wine barrel just sitting here so I was planning to use that. With regular tasting it should be possible to rack the beer to another vessel so it doesn't taste too sour.

Rodenbach usually has a IBU of about 30. But I don't really know what happens to the IBU when it sits in a oak barrel over a longer period of time. If anyone does please tell me

I will definitely think about adding some spelt malt mainly because I think it has incredibly effects on head retention and because (for me at least) it gives beer a better body. I was thinking something like 5-6% spelt ( I don't want to much of the spelt flavor in this beer).

The main reason I'm doing a step mash is the fact that I use Belgian malt. Belgian malt is usually unmodified and most of the grains really need a acid rest and a enzyme rest. I might alter the temperatures and times a bit to get more long chain sugars but it's gonna be a step mash.

I think I really need a mash step at 45C because it gets the phosphate "out of the grain" and into the water. Phosphate helps with pH maintenance and acts as food for the yeast later.
It also creates a slight clove taste in the beer (if used with a appropriate yeast).

A rest at 52C gives the beer a better/fuller body, helps with head retention and helps holding the CO in the beer. It breaks down proteins into Polypeptides and amino acids which also act as food for the yeast.

So I might give the beer a shorter rest at 63C and get it to 72C sooner but those 2 steps i just explained have way to many advantages to just skip them.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Just like hop flavor and aroma, IBUs will reduce over time. It may start around 30 IBUs, but by the time it's bottled, it's much lower than that. Don't plan on much head retention. The brett and bugs will chew through just about everything. Given time, brett seems to be able to metabolize pretty much anything...even cellulose from oak barrels/foeders. I think you're fine to do a step mash, but I still question whether it's necessary for this type of beer. So for you barrel, has it ever been used, or are you saying it is just unused by you? If it's never been used, you're likely to pick up a lot of oak character in a fairly short amount of time, especially if it's a smaller barrel (greater surface area to volume of beer). Also, if it's been sitting dry, be sure to rehydrate it to make sure it's water tight. I've used the French method outlined here and it's worked well on the four barrels I've been involved with, https://www.midwestsupplies.com/media/downloads/422/barrel_care_sheet.pdf
I use near boiling water for this and it can also help sanitize the barrel at the same time it's rehydrating.