First sour w/ 3278, yeast questions

[yoop89]

I am in the final planning stages of brewing a Flanders Red with Wyeast 3278 and have a few questions before getting started. The plan is to end up with 2-5 gallon carboys worth to age together. I am able to brew 5 or 10 gallon batches with my setup but I have read that the character from 3278 isn't all that great from the initial pitch. This is my question.

Would it be wise to brew up 5 gallons and let it ferment for a month or two then brew another 5 to put on top of that cake while racking the original 5 to a new carboy?I've read that the Brett in this blend does best when left on the cake for 6-12 m.

Would it be better to brew up 10 gallons and make a starter out of the 3278 and pitch both at the same time? I've also read that starters are risky with blends due to one strain "taking over" the starter.

Would it be ok to just pitch half the pack into each fermenter if going 10 G?

Is there any truth to the things I've mentioned above? This will be my first sour "project" so I probably cant go wrong either way as it will be learning experience. Just looking for some feedback.

Also, if left on the cake for a year or so will that blend be useable for another sour without adding some sacc to it? Im assuming that left at cellar temps the sacc will all be dead or consumed by the bugs?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I recommend:
1. Do not remove the cake.
2. Use a low amount of hops, around 0.4 oz of low AA hops for 10 gal.
3. Add dregs if desired and available.
4. A low amount of oxygen is good! For the first couple months at least, no glass/stainless.
5. Be patient. Time is your friend with a traditional sour.

My Lambic is just about 6 months old now, with no dregs, and 3278 as primary with no starter. Held between 68-74°F.
It's a really nice beer at this point.
Significant Brett aroma, mainly fruit. The flavor is lots of barnyard/horse funk with some fruit and low phenol. Noticeable sourness. Nice grainy finish.
It's already complex and I'm really excited! I will be adding oak cubes to it and then bottling.

I have read that the character from 3278 isn't all that great from the initial pitch.

I disagree based on my results. I think people don't treat it correctly.

For 10 gal I would use 2 packets, no starters. Keep it simple.

Even though you can, I personally would not reuse the cake without pitching fresh Sacc (e.g. a fresh sour blend).

Cheers

 

[mirthfuldragon]

So I'm coming off my first lambic, also a split batch. I did half with 3278 and the other half with Gigayeast Sour Cherry Funk (100% brett). The SCF hit terminal gravity in about five months, and the 3278 was still at 1.010 before I blended them somewhat (half got fruit for Christmas, blended and fruited in mid-October). In my limited experience, doing a split batch with different strains is beneficial, so you can see how they develop differently and also gives the option to blend.

Overall, I am really happy with the results. The SCF had a dramatically different aroma profile and a numerically higher pH, where the lambic blend was considerably more acidic but did not have anywhere near the character of the SCF. Blending them (2/3 SCF to 1/3 lambic, prior to fruiting) gave me an end product that was really superior to either by itself. Split batches cry out for experimentation.

 

[yoop89]

4. A low amount of oxygen is good! For the first couple months at least, no glass/stainless.

So just an ale pail for the first few months? If a small amount of oxygen is good headspace shouldnt matter much? This also brings me to my next question, how vigorous of a fermenter is 3278? Will it form thick krausen for the first few days as with normal ale yeasts?

Did you transfer your beer to a glass vessel for the remainder of the the 6 months or did you just leave it in plastic?

Even though you can, I personally would not reuse the cake without pitching fresh Sacc (e.g. a fresh sour blend).

So just toss the cake out? Or are you saying pitch another pack of 3278 on it if I want to reuse?

Thanks for the prompt response, really looking forward to this project.

 

[yoop89]

So I'm coming off my first lambic, also a split batch.

Actually just got through reading your thread. A lot of great info. I think ill keep the 3278 to 5 gallons as you did and find another blend or maybe just a brett to throw at another 5 gallons.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Actually just got through reading your thread. A lot of great info. I think ill keep the 3278 to 5 gallons as you did and find another blend or maybe just a brett to throw at another 5 gallons.

You may also want to check out https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/12-beers-of-christmas-2018-edition.642063/ - I made some commentary there as well. I tried to keep both threads relatively updated. Some of the folks also gave some nice commentary (TL;DR: they liked it a lot).

 

[RPh_Guy]

how vigorous of a fermenter is 3278? Will it form thick krausen for the first few days as with normal ale yeasts?

It's pretty comparable to most ale yeast in my experience. Of course it'll depend on the pack freshness. Mine was fairly fresh and had minimal lag.

Did you transfer your beer to a glass vessel for the remainder of the the 6 months or did you just leave it in plastic?

Some people do leave in buckets with good success. I can't really make a strong recommendation whether to transfer or not, but I probably would.

I use PET plastic, which is less oxygen permeable than HDPE buckets. I highly recommend PET if you're buying fermenters to dedicate to sours.

are you saying pitch another pack of 3278 on it if I want to reuse?

Yes, I would reuse probably half the cake along with a fresh pack of whatever.

I'm glad @mirthfuldragon mentioned using different yeasts and blending. There are a lot of options and plenty of room for experimentation! Using the same sour blend but adding different dregs to each is an option too.
Roeselare is a popular blend for Flanders, and I like it. Mine is about 7-8 months old now and doing well.

 

[mashpaddled]

You should pitch an entire pack of 3278 per five gallons. Pitch and let it ride. Don't mess with it; don't add more wort to it. 3278 really shines as the beer gets into the 12-24 month age. Prepare your fermentation vessel initially to have some blowoff. A fresh pack of 3278 has Belgian sacc as primary yeast and will build up a healthy amount of krausen.

You can and should repitch from the cake but add fresh sacc along with it. You can pitch without adding fresh sacc but you will get better flavor out of adding healthy sacc. I've always liked adding Belgian sacc because they tend to produce a lot of flavor compounds brett can manipulate down the road but you could pitch almost any sacc strain (even lager or clean ale).

I've never had bland experiences with 3278 or problems souring. It will likely not get you a 3.0 ph but I don't think that should be your goal, either. 3278 is more brett heavy than a lot of other blends out there so it doesn't have the aggressive sourness most people think is "right" to sour beer because 3278 is rarely used by pro brewers (for exactly this reason).

 

[Miraculix]

You should pitch an entire pack of 3278 per five gallons. Pitch and let it ride. Don't mess with it; don't add more wort to it. 3278 really shines as the beer gets into the 12-24 month age. Prepare your fermentation vessel initially to have some blowoff. A fresh pack of 3278 has Belgian sacc as primary yeast and will build up a healthy amount of krausen.

You can and should repitch from the cake but add fresh sacc along with it. You can pitch without adding fresh sacc but you will get better flavor out of adding healthy sacc. I've always liked adding Belgian sacc because they tend to produce a lot of flavor compounds brett can manipulate down the road but you could pitch almost any sacc strain (even lager or clean ale).

I've never had bland experiences with 3278 or problems souring. It will likely not get you a 3.0 ph but I don't think that should be your goal, either. 3278 is more brett heavy than a lot of other blends out there so it doesn't have the aggressive sourness most people think is "right" to sour beer because 3278 is rarely used by pro brewers (for exactly this reason).

Sounds like I could like it. I will have a fermenter for long term aging accessible when I dump the stuff inside, which went wrong. What starting gravity would be a good one for a sour with this blend? I still have my wild brett here which I caught and which I would add... It is nice and funky.

 

[yoop89]

I use PET plastic

Looking into getting one or two new fermenters to dedicate to this project now. Thanks With the PET being in between buckets and glass as far as oxygen ingress goes do you just leave your brew in there for the remainder of aging until its time to bottle/keg? It looks like I will have some time to brew in two weeks and need to get the last few things ordered(one more pack of yeast and a couple fermenters). I am pretty patient when it comes to brewing so ill look into getting a book or two to read up on while they are fermenting away.

For the hop addition, it just goes in to keep away any bad bugs and to add a bit of bitterness? 1/2 oz of any low AA hops/10 G? Ive got a 1/2 lb of cluster that was sent to me on accident and i got to keep them so ill probably end up using those.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Looking into getting one or two new fermenters to dedicate to this project now. Thanks With the PET being in between buckets and glass as far as oxygen ingress goes do you just leave your brew in there for the remainder of aging until its time to bottle/keg?

I used two fermonsters for my sours. I blended them both, then added fruit to the one on the left. The one on the right I topped up with fresh sweet wort flash boiled prior to hopping from a hefe I made, so it is now full within about 2" of the rim.

Edit: the colors on the SCF (middle left) and 3278 (middle right) are actually the same; the lighting in my basement is weird.

View media item 69970

For the hop addition, it just goes in to keep away any bad bugs and to add a bit of bitterness? 1/2 oz of any low AA hops/10 G? Ive got a 1/2 lb of cluster that was sent to me on accident and i got to keep them so ill probably end up using those.

For hopping, lactobacillus does not like hops. The lowest AA% I could find was 4% Saaz. Here is what 5 IBU looks like in an 11g batch:
View media item 69971

I am pretty patient when it comes to brewing so ill look into getting a book or two to read up on while they are fermenting away.

Patience is a virtue in sours. Check out American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmeire. Fun read.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I used two fermonsters for my sours. I blended them both, then added fruit to the one on the left. The one on the right I topped up with fresh sweet wort flash boiled prior to hopping from a hefe I made, so it is now full within about 2" of the rim.

How long did it take the 3278 to pellicle like that? Mine has been fermenting for about a month and I have no pellicle activity, was just going to wait it out but I'm hoping my blend isn't sheyit.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes, ported Fermonsters (with sediment block spigot) have been great for the entire fermentation and aging timeline.

American Sour Beer by Tonsmeire is a good read, although a bit dated in some areas.
The Milk the Funk wiki (and Facebook group) are a great resource with lots of detailed scientific info.

Hops are mainly to slow down the souring until Saccharomyces has a chance to ferment. Acid suppresses yeast expression, and we don't want that too early.
The extra flavor compounds from both Saccharomyces and the hops help increase the ultimate Brettanomyces flavor complexity.
Bitterness is a necessary evil, but it doesn't hurt.

I think the cluster hops should be OK. Hopefully they're not more than 7% AA. I'd limit to no more than 5-10 IBU and no more than 0.4-0.6oz in 10 gal. The first generation bacteria are wimpy.

@Miraculix
Brett generally starts to struggle above 8% ABV, so I wouldn't push the OG too high. I would expect FG around 1.000-1.010 generally.

@mashpaddled
I agree it lets the Brett flavor shine! I'm really impressed with this blend.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

How long did it take the 3278 to pellicle like that? Mine has been fermenting for about a month and I have no pellicle activity, was just going to wait it out but I'm hoping my blend isn't sheyit.

The one on the right is 3278. Brewed 03/18/2018, and that photo was taken 08/31/2018.

Here's what they looked like 05/29/2018:
View media item 69972
The far right is active fermentation, not pellicle. The far left is banana wine, because I like to live dangerously.

Edit: the colors on the SCF (middle left) and 3278 (middle right) are actually the same; the lighting in my basement is weird.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Ah okay, thanks for the pics they are helpful. Mine is a little before the stage above, I would consider it to look like very slowly growing yeast rafts like yours, good to know the blend is on track.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, ported Fermonsters (with sediment block spigot) have been great for the entire fermentation and aging timeline.

American Sour Beer by Tonsmeire is a good read, although a bit dated in some areas.
The Milk the Funk wiki (and Facebook group) are a great resource with lots of detailed scientific info.

Hops are mainly to slow down the souring until Saccharomyces has a chance to ferment. Acid suppresses yeast expression, and we don't want that too early.
The extra flavor compounds from both Saccharomyces and the hops help increase the ultimate Brettanomyces flavor complexity.
Bitterness is a necessary evil, but it doesn't hurt.

I think the cluster hops should be OK. Hopefully they're not more than 7% AA. I'd limit to no more than 5-10 IBU and no more than 0.4-0.6oz in 10 gal. The first generation bacteria are wimpy.

@Miraculix
Brett generally starts to struggle above 8% ABV, so I wouldn't push the OG too high. I would expect FG around 1.000-1.010 generally.

@mashpaddled
I agree it lets the Brett flavor shine! I'm really impressed with this blend.

Hmmm..... maybe I should try a brett only mead one day....... sry for ot.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have a session mead with maltodextrin and oak fermenting with 3278 for 5+ months now.
The wait is killing me.

Brett seems to benefit from Sacc fermentation.

 

[Miraculix]

I have a session mead with maltodextrin and oak fermenting with 3278 for 5+ months now.
The wait is killing me.

Brett seems to benefit from Sacc fermentation.

I was also thinking in the session direction, but without Dextrine. That way it shouldn't take too long.

 

[yoop89]

I have a session mead with maltodextrin and oak fermenting with 3278

That sounds amazing! Ive only done two batches of mead and am down to the last few bottles. Mead is what actually started my addiction to this hobby, although I havent done any mead since starting beer.

As far as the hops go I forgot that I ordered some extra Saaz to have on hand and will use a small amount of them for this beer, looks like I have one pack @ 2.7% AA so those should work fine. Hopefully I will stay on track and get this brewed up next week. I will post pics here when I do!

One last question(s), about mash/boil times. Since brett with eat complex sugars will I want to mash this on the higher end? Any reason to go the full hour I normally go? For the boil too can I shorten that to maybe 30 minutes since I have only one 5 IBU hop addition? Really excited about this, thinking of maybe going with 3 - 4 gallon experiments, if not, at least 2 - 5 gallons.

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Mine has been fermenting for about a month and I have no pellicle activity

A month is too early, as you'll probably still have active fermentation going on (unless it's a bug pitch after fermentation). However, if you've done well at avoiding oxygen exposure, you could very well never experience a pellicle.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Since brett with eat complex sugars will I want to mash this on the higher end? Any reason to go the full hour I normally go? For the boil too can I shorten that to maybe 30 minutes since I have only one 5 IBU hop addition?

It's generally recommended to increase higher chain sugars or starch, so yes mash higher, 155-160°F or so is fine.

You can cut the boil short if you want, but you'll reduce your efficiency.
I did a 45 minute mash with my lambic ... My efficiency for that batch was 9% lower than normal and I'm not really sure why. YMMV.

Remember not more than ~0.4-0.6oz of hops

Cheers

 

[Miraculix]

I have two year old hops here. Sorachi ace, opened two years ago, stored at room temperature the whole time. How do I determine how much of this old hop would be useful?

They do not smell like hops anymore, they smell herbal but the hop/dank/pine character is gone. But also not cheesy. Maybe they are beyond smelling cheesy?

 

[RPh_Guy]

How do I determine how much of this old hop would be useful?

By weight. For first-gen cultures I suggest about 0.2-0.3 ounces (~6-8g) per 5 gal.

If you make a funky mead, please update us with details!

 

[jrgtr42]

How long did it take the 3278 to pellicle like that? Mine has been fermenting for about a month and I have no pellicle activity, was just going to wait it out but I'm hoping my blend isn't sheyit.

I did a sour recently - sat in secondary for a year and never developed a pellicle.
Still came out nice and funky, though.
Mine's basically a clone of Russian River Consecration, tweaked just a bit. I did a primary fermentation with Abbey ale yeast, my regular process, then racked it into a glass carboy with a blend and dregs from a couple sour beers I had in the meantime.
You may want to take a small sample here and there to see what is going on. Sometimes it may funk up faster than other times - you'll want to pull and package it at that point.

 

[Miraculix]

By weight. For first-gen cultures I suggest about 0.2-0.3 ounces (~6-8g) per 5 gal.

If you make a funky mead, please update us with details!

The funky mead is definitely on the schedule, but before I am going to make a mead with a lager yeast... the direct oposite of funkyness one could say. When this one is done, I will think about something funky.

The sorachi ace had about 15% alpha when they where fresh. I hope this went downhill during the aging.... do you mean 6-8g with a 60 min boil?

 

[RPh_Guy]

The sorachi ace had about 15% alpha when they where fresh. I hope this went downhill during the aging.... do you mean 6-8g with a 60 min boil?

Yep, that's how the Belgians use them.
The alpha acid should be pretty much gone by now. The beta acids aren't overly high for sorachi ace. Should be fine!

I'm under the impression you don't really care for sours. There's nothing saying a funky Brett beer needs to be sour. ... You know what to do to prevent souring

 

[Miraculix]

Yep, that's how the Belgians use them.
The alpha acid should be pretty much gone by now. The beta acids aren't overly high for sorachi ace. Should be fine!

I'm under the impression you don't really care for sours. There's nothing saying a funky Brett beer needs to be sour. ... You know what to do to prevent souring

Well I like sours. But I think I like the ones most that are really funky and not overly sour. Like, easy drinker sour, if that makes sense. I cannot tell you a PH, as I do not know how high the beers in question that I liked were, but I guess it is at the upper end of the range. So I try to hit the sweet spot. But you are right, i'd rather have something not sour than something too sour

 

[yoop89]

Just picked up my fermenters for this project and I’ve decided to start three different batches. The first will be 3278, the second will be a sach strain with OYL “all the Bretts”. Any recommendation for a third? Leaning towards roselare from wyeast or the farmhouse blend from WL. Really excited to get this rolling.

 

[couchsending]

The Brett strains from The Yeast Bay are magical. They’re all isolated from some of the worlds best mixed fermentation beers. Do a little research and you can figure out which strain comes from which brewery.

184, 207 are my favs.

184 only needs 30-45 days in secondary to develop a lot of Brett flavor/aroma.

A pellicle isn’t necessary a good thing. It signifies the presence of Oxygen. It’s rather easy to end up with too much acetic acid when Brett is exposed to too much o2.

 

[sakariss]

Hi.
I just used this strain for a "lambic".
Tasted the wort, and it tasted astringent. Probably because of a too hot mash, husks accidentally slipping into the boil, and an overuse of hops. I take the blame for it. But maybe it will do some magic in the fermenter.
However, I am brewing a new batch next month, and the 3278 is hard to get hold of where I live. What would be the best way to use some of the yeast from my "failed" batch, while still keeping that batch ?

 

[RPh_Guy]

What would be the best way to use some of the yeast from my "failed" batch, while still keeping that batch ?

I am not 100% confident that pulling a small sample will be able to capture the full mix of microbes, but your best bet is to swirl the fermenter a bit (if no pellicle has formed yet) and pull out a few ounces.
Purge with CO2 and/or top up with wort or beer.
Feed the sample some wort too, leave it to ferment for a couple days (covered like a starter), and then put in the fridge.

Whenever I get a new mixed culture it goes into my yeast ranch so I never need to pull from a previous batch like this.

Good luck. Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

Probably because of a too hot mash, husks accidentally slipping into the boil, and an overuse of hops.

I hope this works out for you. I have never heard of any of these actually contributing towards astringency. I know the husks-in-the-boil thing was a boogieman myth dispelled quite a while ago.

 

[yoop89]

Finally got this thing started this weekend! Ended up with three "main" beers, 5.5 gal @ 1.051: 1)WY3278 2)TYB Melange` 3)OYL VOSS Kviek/All the bretts. During the boil I gathered 6 gallons of "second" runnings @ 1.038 and added 1.5 lb of candi sugar to that and pitched TYB Almagation II that I had saved from a recent batch that I did for a local comp. Everythings bubbling away happily!

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's cool!

Keep in mind beer 3 (Sacc + Brett) and the second runnings beer (Brett only) won't become sour unless you add bacteria.

 

[yoop89]

That's cool!

Keep in mind beer 3 (Sacc + Brett) and the second runnings beer (Brett only) won't become sour unless you add bacteria.

That was my rationale with beer three, to use as a blending beer or to add some bacteria at a later date. Will it still sour a few months down the road if I decide to add something else to it? Or will it need some new sugars to chew up?

The second runnings beer wasnt given much though as I didnt think I was going to do it. At least its a good home for my brett as of now, right?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Will it still sour a few months down the road if I decide to add something else to it? Or will it need some new sugars to chew up?

Yeah you can sour it later if desired.
I've read that Pedio does need some sugar (wort, beer, or maltodextrin), but if Brett is still working that might be enough. It take take a couple months even at the low hop rate.

Yeah I think I have some amalgamation ii in the fridge. I should probably do something with that too.

Cheers

 

[yoop89]

Coming up on the one month mark and this project is tucked away happily in a dark corner of my "cellar". Got to thinking and was wondering if/when I should do tasting notes throughout the next year or does everyone just leave them alone for at least a year? I know its too early now but just checking to see if I should set a reminder for every 3 or 6 months?

 

[couchsending]

I’d say check it at 3 and 6. Just try to minimize your O2 exposure. Fill that thing right up to the neck and if you have Co2 it doesn’t hurt to add a bit after you pull your samples. You don’t want a Acetic acid to start to develop

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I have a lambic that has been fermenting since last November and I have only disturbed it to transfer for long-term storage. Besides the acetic acid worries I feel like if I taste it and its really good already I will compromise letting it age longer (i.e. want to package early etc.).

If you open her up the above advice is best.

 

[yoop89]

Ive got all three in ported better bottles so sampling is "too easy" i guess. Being my first sour batch Im interested in how they progress. I had planned on replacing the airlocks with something to seal them up after 2 or 3 months so I dont have to worry about my starsan drying up.

have a lambic that has been fermenting since last November and I have only disturbed it to transfer for long-term storage.

What was your reason for transferring? Minimize headspace? I had planned on leaving these in the 6 gallon better bottles for the entire year. Each fermenter has 5.5 gallons in it.