First lager-Oktoberfest question

[king]

I've been brewing for about 3 years but since purchasing my fermentation fridge a couple months ago I've just now gotten around to doing my first lager, an Oktoberfest.

I brewed it on August 16th, about 11 days ago. Kept the temperature at 50-52* for the first couple days and then let it rise to 54*. When I was chilling and racking into my carboy I took about 500ml off and put it in my flask on my stirplate and put a little bit of yeast in there to test the fermentability. Mash temp was around 154-155* and OG was 1.057. To my surprise the wort in the flask got down to 1.003, not ideal for an Oktoberfest. I attributed this to it being on a stirplate and being at about 70^ degrees. I pulled a sample from the actual carboy today. The airlock is slowing down alot 1-2 bubbles per minute. Gravity it around 1.011, which is about as low as I'd like it to go.

My question pertains to diacetyl and when to start lagering. Unfortunately my palette is not the best at detecting diacetyl. I've been through the associate program at Seibel and each class we had sensory panels where Bud was spiked with the threshold of diacetyl and I could not detect it. Though I do pick up on the mouthfeel portion of it. Upon taste I do not detect it. If there is any diacetyl would it be cleaned up DURING the lagering phase? Should I go ahead and rack to secondary and begin lagering to stop it from attenuating anymore? I still bottle condition so I'm only going to be able to lager for about 4 weeks if I want it done in time for Oct-Nov. Thinking about getting a corny with CO2 tank and picnic tap so that I can lager for as long as possible but that is not a positive yet.

Oktoberfest's are my favorite seasonal beers to drink so I want this to be legit. All of these questions aside the flavor profile is great. Recipe was Vienna, Munich, Floor Malted Pils, CaraMunich, and Carafa II. Perles at 90,60, and 10 to get about 24 IBU's.

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[king]

And just in case this comes up...I pitched a very healthy large starter of Wyeast Oktoberfest Lager Blend. Definitely no worries of underpitching.

 

[mtyquinn]

I've brewed a couple of these with good results, but I'm no expert. I would have left the beer at fifty a bit longer, but 54 isn't bad. Personally I think you can be sure that the diacetyl is gone by letting it sit at 60 degrees for a day or to and then keg it up. You should be good even if you keg it up now.

 

[TyTanium]

The mouthfeel is often detected before the flavor pops up with diacetyl, so you may be good there. Usually you do the D-rest when fermentation is ~75% complete, so ~1.025ish...you could bump it up to 60, but it might not do much if the yeast have finished up.

As for working on it via lagering, the answer is maybe. Have you read Kaiser's write up on lagering? If you drop it slowly down to lagering temps when fermentation is a few points away from completetion, the yeast will continue to munch on it during lagering. But if it's done and you crash it down to 32F, there won't be much more yeast activity.

 

[rhamilton]

Diacetyl isn't produced all of the time. Many brewers who specialize in lagers do not do a d-rest since they don't produce diacetyl in the first place.

If you don't get an indicator of diacetyl via aroma, taste, or mouthfeel -- I think you are good to go ahead and start lagering.

 

[osagedr]

A d-rest will not harm anything and might prevent a lot of heartache later on.

Interesting that the 2633 got all the way down to 1.011, especially with a high-ish mash temp.

Good on you for pitching a lot of yeast--most new lager brewers struggle with this. Definitely ferment cooler next time--down into the upper mid-40s, then raise to d-rest temp to finish off if need be. You want that lager fermentation to be pretty slow.

 

[king]

Thanks for all the valuable info guys. I think I'll go ahead and start lowering it slowly to lager temps here after one more day or so. Do you think that I should put it in the secondary before I do this and carry some of the yeast over with it? Not alot, just a little bit to do some clean up work of needed, or should I start lagering in the primary and switch it over once I have it down to the right temp?

 

[osagedr]

Take it out of your chamber, let it go at room temp for a couple of days, rack it directly into the secondary, then lower it to lagering temps (i.e. as low as you can go without freezing it) for as long as you can wait. If you really want to fiddle around with it lower it five degrees per day then hold it just above freezing.

 

[king]

What about if it drops a couple more points when I take it out? Like I said the fermentability test went down to 1.003. If it does go down lower should I then wait a day or so AFTER it reaches terminal. I would hope that it doesn't go down any lower. I could handle a drier Oktoberfest but I don't want one with no body.

But that fermentability test could be due to being on a stirplate and it being at 70+ degrees.

 

[osagedr]

IMHO you wouldn't notice a difference even if it dropped a bit further. It should be at FG anyway. I just wouldn't risk a diacetyl problem.

 

[king]

Alright. Thanks again for all the help and wish me luck. I'm starting to see all of the Oktoberfest's come out and I'm getting excited for mine to be done.

 

[osagedr]

Alright. Thanks again for all the help and wish me luck. I'm starting to see all of the Oktoberfest's come out and I'm getting excited for mine to be done.

Good luck! I had my first taste of my (uncarbonated) O-Fest when I racked it off the yeast the other day. Very malty. Grain bill was mostly Vienna, some Munich and then a few specialty grains. No pilsner malt. Can't wait to see how it turns out. Want to carb it up in time for a local competition later this fall.

 

[king]

So I put this beer in the secondary last night and started lagering. It did end up attenuating pretty low, down to 1.003-1.004. The hydrometer sample doesn't seem to be light bodied or anything like that so thats a good thing. Now I'll let it lager for about 4 weeks.

Just a couple other questions....do I need I worry about autolysis during lagering? I racked it off of the cake but I can see a little bit of sediment at the bottom. Probably not I'm assuming, but what have you guys experienced?

Also, should I repitch some yeast for bottle conditioning? I've heard both sides of this, people saying do and don't. What about you guys?

 

[osagedr]

That's a very low FG for this style.

You don't need to worry about autolysis.

Yes, repitch some rehydrated yeast at bottling. You might not need to, but it won't hurt anything and then you'll be sure.

 

[king]

Thanks. Yeah it's really low, didn't want it to happen but at least it won't be under attenuated at bottling and start exploding. I don't mind a drier beer but I was just worried about the body which seems to be ok. I also had about 2 extra gallons of the same recipe with another yeast (bohemian lager) that I had in the fridge at the same time and didn't put in the original post. So I decided to get a little creative. 1 gallon I racked onto a piece of oak spiral that had been soaking in a nice Cabernet for a couple months and the other I'm thinking about dry hopping or adding something else to it.

 

[NuclearRich]

diacetyl would be way worse than poor body. You could always carb a little lighter if FG drops too low for yo, might give the illusion that it isnt as highly fermented.