First Cider...Still confused

[icarus13]

So I made my first batch of cider last week. 5 gallons of apple juice, 1 lb dark brown sugar, and S-04 yeast. OG was 1.060. I wanted a ~6%, sweet cider to be kegged. So I was originally going to cold crash it at 1.020 add sorbate and campden then keg. I checked the gravity today and it's already down to 1.010. I don't have my keg yet so I stuck it in the fridge to cold crash. I figure I'll backsweeten to get it where I want. My concern is the sorbate and campden. I'm afraid of it adding off flavors or smells. Should I add it? If I do how much of each should I add and not worry about flavors or smells? How do I add it (do I have to bring the cider back to room temperature, how long should it sit before racking and kegging, should I add both at the same time, etc). Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[unseenat17]

Lack of patience will kill cider. I will pitch my yeast 24 hrs after using sulfite and let sit a week. Rack and let sit 2 weeks. Rack and let sit 3 weeks (or rack after about 1.5 inches of sediment settles on bottom) and for the first two weeks do not let the temperature of your fermentation room to raise above 65. Continue this for about 4-5 months. Some even wait a year before consuming. Young cider has a sulfury smell and taste. Once aged you would campden and back sweeten. Just my two cents.

PS. S-04 usually will finish pretty dry. Use a different yeast if you want more risidual sweetness

 

[icarus13]

So I made my first batch of cider last week. 5 gallons of apple juice, 1 lb dark brown sugar, and S-04 yeast. OG was 1.060. I wanted a ~6%, sweet cider to be kegged. So I was originally going to cold crash it at 1.020 add sorbate and campden then keg. I checked the gravity today and it's already down to 1.010. I don't have my keg yet so I stuck it in the fridge to cold crash. I figure I'll backsweeten to get it where I want. My concern is the sorbate and campden. I'm afraid of it adding off flavors or smells. Should I add it? If I do how much of each should I add and not worry about flavors or smells? How do I add it (do I have to bring the cider back to room temperature, how long should it sit before racking and kegging, should I add both at the same time, etc). Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[ftonz]

If you want to backsweeten , you need to add it
I havn't backsweetened cider, but what I do ... I dont think it alters taste much.
When I started out I was worried about it too, but hey, you can always make more !

Wait untill the ferment is done
Add the campden , wait 24 hours, then rack onto sorbate, Sweeten after a day or two, rack again as needed to clear
I would do it at room temp

As for how much , you'll have to bear with my Metric usage .
I use a tablet for a 4.5 Litre batch , then a quarter teaspoon or sorbate

Hope that helps

 

[Daze]

I avoid chemicals like the plague. If you don't want to use them, than don't!! There is a simple natural alternative that will work just as well and not negatively effect flavor. Pasteurize it. Rack it in to a stock pot drop in a candy thermometer and heat it up to 140º F then cover it, let it cool and put it in the keg. You won't be heating it up enough to effect flavors in a bad or cooked way, but you will kill any yeast. Also it is a good time to back sweeten as the heat will help blend the flavors of the cider and the backsweetener.

 

[Yooper]

If you're kegging, no need for chemicals or pasteurizing. Just chill it, and rack into the keg and keep it cold. The yeast will go dormant, so fermentation will stop.

 

[icarus13]

I'd like to keep the option to bottle from the keg so just cold crashing wouldn't be an option. I like the idea to transfer it to a pot and bulk pastuerize. I thought about that in the past but wasn't sure if there were any downsides because it seems like nobody does it. Is there any risk involved with doing this other than risking contamination? Does anybody else do this?

 

[Daze]

The risk of contamination is minimal to non existent because any contaminants get pasteurized too. That is why you cover it at 140 and let it cool. As it cools the heat will also pasteurize the lid and keep further contaminants out. Pasteurization gets a bad rap because people think "boil" when they think "pasteurize". If you get it up to hot it will start to effect flavor by quite a bit, but there is no negative effect at lower temps. All of the guys who bottle pasteurize are doing the same thing and there is no change in flavor for them either.

 

[dinnerstick]

oxidation seems like the biggest risk. i would feel safer kegging, bottling from the keg, pasteurizing the bottles. bottle pasteurizing is pretty safe with bottles that aren't over-carbed, and yours won't be. another option would be to run the cider through a metal pipe submerged in hot water, like a counter flow chiller in reverse, from one keg to another by CO2 pressure, but it would take a bit of pioneering to get the kill temp correct.
as for avoiding chemicals by cold crashing, just check your gravity over a week or so while it is in the fridge now, and see if it drops. in my hands, S04 is totally inactive at fridge temps
for bottling from a keg, in case you haven't seen it, there is this very cheap method, works for me except with highly carbed relatively thin bodied drinks like skeeter pee lemon wine
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/

 

[Daze]

oxidation seems like the biggest risk.

believe it or not but bulk pasteurization helps eliminate any o2 already in the cider from racking or other activities with it. So you are reducing the chance of oxidation. Yes you are exposing a large surface of the cider to o2 but it is only for a couple of hours and the cider will not get oxidized in that amount of time.

 

[icarus13]

Thanks for all the info. I think I'll bulk pastuerize 4 gal (my pot can only comfortably handle 4 gal). With the remaining gal, I think I'll rack it to a 1 gal glass jug and continue to ferment till dry. Then maybe I'll bottle carbonate it dry to give me some variety. Thanks again for all the info.

 

[sagec1001]

i know this thread is a few months old but i had a question in regards to this.. I recently made a cider and wanted to keep it semi-sweet. Once it hit the gravity that i wanted i racked it and cold crashed it. From there i put it in an extra corney keg that I have and purged with co2. I know that there is still likely yeast in the cider and i want to keep it semi-sweet but do not have room to keep it chilled. If i was to remove the cider from the corney keg and put it in a pot and hit with 140 temp this will kill all the yeast and i can store at room temp in my corney keg until room is available without a problem?

How long at 140? Just hit 140, shut off, cover and let cool?

Also to be sure, would chemicals even work in this case? from what i read they will only stop new fermentation not existing..so even if i say cold crashed, racked on top of pot. sorb. wouldn't the fermentation continue anyways or would this efficiently stop my fermentation at the gravity that i cold crashed at?

Sorry to bring up an old thread but very similar to the answer i think i've been looking for so just wanted to clarify!

Thanks!!

 

[Curtis2010]

How long at 140? Just hit 140, shut off, cover and let cool?


Thanks!!

To pasteurize you should hold 145F for 30 minutes. 4-5 gallons of liquid will hold their temp for a long time. What I usually do is run the temp up a bit higher (maybe 155F) and monitor the temp as it cools. Bring it up slowly so you don't over heat the liquid at the bottom of the pot. As long as it stays above 145 for the duration you have successfully pasteurized.

Note: this is not specific to Cider...you can pasteurize most any liquid this way.

You also want to cool quickly to your storage temperature. The longer it sits around at cooler temps the more likely you can get contamination.

 

[Daze]

hold 145F for 30 minutes

Thats way to long. these are the established pasteurizing guidelines from the food industry.

128F minimum time to kill population 56 min
140F minimum time to kill population 5.6 min
152F minimum time to kill population .56 min

How long at 140? Just hit 140, shut off, cover and let cool?

I heat to 140 cover and let cool. at 140 the heat will pasteurize the lid you just put on the pot and then you will not get contamination. When it is no longer hot you can move it back to the keg

Also to be sure, would chemicals even work in this case? from what i read they will only stop new fermentation not existing..so even if i say cold crashed, racked on top of pot. sorb. wouldn't the fermentation continue anyways or would this efficiently stop my fermentation at the gravity that i cold crashed at?

IF you cold crashed it AND it cleared so that most of the yeast drop out of suspension than it MAY work to use chemicals. I never use chemicals because if conditions are not right it doesn't work. Pasteurizing on the other hand works every time and helps slightly accelerate the aging process

 

[sagec1001]

awesome! thanks! when you just n cool u just let cool from 140 to room temp at room temp n then i can transfer into the keg n pressurize? just making sure to avoid splashing n good yo go.. any rule of thumb how long it can sit in the keg at room temp? indefinitely at least a reasonable time... say 6 months? i know with proper purging n such beer will last much longer just not sure on cider or how cider can/will turn to vinegar.. not sure on the vinegar thing just thought i read something ab cider going vinegar somewhere

 

[sagec1001]

also lets say i did add chemicals after cold crashing.. am i still safe to pasteurize or will that lead to more off flavors?

 

[Daze]

also lets say i did add chemicals after cold crashing.. am i still safe to pasteurize or will that lead to more off flavors?

Why??? If you are planing on pasteurizing there is no need to add the chemicals.

If you have already added the chemicals I would not pasteurize. It may cause issues, it may not, but once you add chemicals and heat things could change at a molecular level and not being a chemist I could not say if it will change or not.

 

[sagec1001]

i just ask as i already added the chemicals after cold crashing before i found this thread about pasteurizing and didnt want to heat things up if there was a possibility of negative outcomes.. going forward i would just be pasteurizing since i know that will work now.. unfortunately already added the chems

 

[Curtis2010]

Thats way to long. these are the established pasteurizing guidelines from the food industry.

128F minimum time to kill population 56 min
140F minimum time to kill population 5.6 min
152F minimum time to kill population .56 min
...
I heat to 140 cover and let cool. at 140 the heat will pasteurize the lid you just put on the pot and then you will not get contamination. When it is no longer hot you can move it back to the keg
...

I researched a little further and learned that the pasteurization temps for various liquids (juices & milk for example) vary quite a bit. As you point out, juice (cider) is quite short.

However, if you just let it cool at ambient temps then it is still going to stay around 140 for much longer than 5.6 minutes.

At these relatively low temps I expect that the effect on cider of a longer duration is not significant? (unlike mash profiles for beer for example).

 

[sagec1001]

does pasteurizing prevent cider from turning to vinegar over time? if the yeast is killed from the process it should prevent it, correct? i have 4 gallons of a second cider i made that i pasteurized in a 6 gallon carboy so there is headspace.. is this going to cause issues? and if so how quick? if i keg n get cold would this stop or prevent the possible vinegar production if the pasteurization doesnt?

 

[wrangler89]

Ok

 

[sagec1001]

anybody? or wrangler was "ok" your answer?

 

[wrangler89]

From what I've read as long as you keep it air tight your ok. Also I've read that yeast doesn't make vinegar it's created from unsanitary air or something that's got in and bacteria cause it. I'm new to this also I have read lots and lots on your subject.

 

[Tipharet]

Question, if you bulk pasteurize before bottling, is carbing even an option at that point? If I prime the bottles there wont be any yeast alive to eat the sugars, right?

My plan because I think I want to carb the bottles is to prime when bottling and using a tester, a plastic bottle. Once the bottle appears to be pressurized, then I plan to pasteurize to lock in that carb level, taste and gravity.

 

[LeBreton]

Question, if you bulk pasteurize before bottling, is carbing even an option at that point? If I prime the bottles there wont be any yeast alive to eat the sugars, right?

Correct! Bulk pasteurizing is great for a sweet, still cider without needing to use potassium metabisulfite.