First Brew Questions -- 1. Fermenting Time...

[russ_watters]

Hi!

I brewed a batch of Mini Monster 1 gallon Amber Ale on Tuesday, 12/9. I have a few questions about how it went, but most important is the fermentation time (tl;dr: key questions highlighted):

The header in the instructions says 7-10 days, then in the actual instructions say 2 weeks (which may even be 2.5 weeks since the previous step is swapping-out the rubber tube for an airlock after 3 days). So, how long should I ferment?

Some details:
I used distilled water. I aerated as the unstructions say, by shaking. The next day, it was bubbling a couple of bubbles a second. After 3 days it had slowed down to a bubble every few seconds, so I swapped-out the tube for the airlock. But it doesn't look like it is bubbling anymore, which makes me nervous. Is it still fermenting? (or cleaning-up after itself?) It is sitting on the floor in my living room. I let it cool a bit in the day and warm up in the evening to keep my heating bills down, but the range is only about 64-69F. Too cool? Should I suck it up and keep the temperature a stable ~68F?

I've read people talking about aerating again, but the main thing I'm reading (not specific to my setup) is that longer is better. Should I re-aerate?

Also, sounds from my reading in the forums like a key to knowing if it is going ok is to measure the S.G., so I'm buying a hydrometer (didn't come with the kit). But in general, I'm seeing that longer is better.

Some other notes from the brew:
In mashing, I used an induction cook top because I figured it would be a good way to keep stable temperatures. It didn't work as well as I had hoped, mostly because the mash is so thick, the temperature is very uneven in the mash. So I had to stir a lot to keep it even. How critical is mashing temperature?

At the end of the mash, it says heat to 170F, but doesn't say for how long and says "Don't exceed this temeprature!" But as above, when you heat from the bottom, that really can't be avoided. So, same question as above...

I messed up the hops addition slightly. It says 1/2 at the beginning, then 1/4 at 45 and 55 minutsinto the boil. But I was late on the last two, adding them just a couple of minutes apart, just a few minutes before the end of the brew. How critical is hops addition timing? I'm guessing it just affects the specific flavor, but isn't really that critical...

[edit]Oh, and probably not important, but: Should the pot be covered? The instructions didn't say. I ended up having it covered about half the time, because I stirred it so much. I ended up with a good level of beer in the caroby (filled just about to the neck).

Thanks!

 

[chrryghst]

These are all great questions. Here's my 2 cents...

(1) "How long should I ferment?" > The general consensus here on HBT is the longer the better. However, in practice, I give my beers 2.5-3 weeks to ferment. Higher gravity beers will require more time than lower gravity beers. The absolute best way to know when your beer is done fermenting is by checking the specific gravity. You mentioned in your post that your kit didn't come with a hydrometer, so as you continue to brew you should add that to your toolbox. With that said, and since this is your first brew, you're gonna want to drink that MF'er as soon as possible, so you could probably get away with 2 weeks total fermentation time before bottling.

(2) "Is it still fermenting or cleaning up after itself?" > Yes and yes. Both.

(3) "Too cool?" > No. 64-68F actually is ideal temperature for most ale yeast.

(4) "Should I re-aerate?" > NO. Two reasons this is a bad idea: One, you will risk infecting your beer. Two, introducing oxygen at this stage would cause your beer to go stale, leading to off flavors.

(5) "How critical is mash temperature?" > Mash temperature and technique matters a lot. It's arguably the main reason why all-grain brewing is considered "advanced." One way to do this on the stovetop is to put your brewpot in the oven for the duration of the mash (set at desired mash temp) after you have heated it up to the target temp on the stove first. That should help keep your temperature stable. It sounds like you learned a lot from this first experience, and you'll continue to improve and find techniques that work for your individual setup.

(6) "How critical is hops addition timing?" > Well... it's important, but forgiving. It sounds like you missed your "flavoring" hops addition and doubled up on your "aroma" hops. NOT A BAD THING AT ALL, just a different hop profile to your brew.

(7) "Should the pot be covered" > No. It's best to keep the pot uncovered to allow unwanted volatile molecules to be released during the boil. There is tons of information about this on HBT and other sources online. Keep the lid off and let your wort boil down. The recipe should account for water lost during the boil.

Overall, it sounds like nothing you did is going to ruin the beer. It's going to be beer and beer is tasty! So relax and don't worry so much about how it's doing.

Just keep these tips in mind for next time. And btw, I am also a 1-gallon brewer. It allows me to brew once a week and experiment a lot. I love it! Welcome to the hobby!

 

[russ_watters]

Awesome answers, thanks very much!

 

[russ_watters]

So, I'm late coming back to this, but....

The beer tasted like Amber Alka-Seltzer. It was very weak and perhaps a bit over-carbonated. I bought a hygrometer and measured 1.014, but since I hadn't measured it before fermenting, I'm not sure if that has any value.

I attached a couple of pictures. One is the carboy right before bottling, the other is two pints, showing a bit of difference between them. To me, the head looks more like soda fizz than thick, foamy head.

I bought a 3-pack of ingredients (3 different varieties) to try again. I'm going to go for the Amber Ale again and see if I can do better with it the second time. The only things I can think of to do differently though are to use spring water instead of distilled and do better with temperature stability. Beyond that, I'm not sure what I did wrong. Suggestions?

 

[andy6026]

Drinking beer before it's had proper time to bottle condition (about 3 weeks) usually makes it taste thin and weak.

Most people recommend racking beer to your bottling bucket ON TOP of the priming sugar. I find that method difficult to measure how much beer I'm actually going to bottle once the trub is taken into account. In light of that, I rack to the bottling bucket first and then prepare my priming sugar based on how much beer actually got into the bucket. Once the sugar is in on top, give it all a GENTLE stir (you don't want to oxidize the beer). Also, you should note that if your bottling bucket and/or fermenter have volume markings going up the side - they are often quite inaccurate.

To be honest, I'm not surprised that you're a bit disappointed with your first brew - not that you did anything particularly wrong that you've reported on, but it takes a number of batches to tune things in just right such that your beer satisfies you more than commercial brands. Don't be discouraged, try and try again...

One last thing - many brewers don't use distilled water for brewing because often we're unaware of its mineral content. Tap water, on the other hand, you can usually get a water report for and go from there. I'm fortunate enough that my area (Toronto) has fairly decent tap water for brewing. Just because the distilled water tastes good as water, doesn't necessarily mean that its going to make good beer. However, you needn't have a chemistry degree to get into some of the basic water science for brewing. To start with, pick up some campden tablets to remove the chlorine/chloramine in your water supply. They are cheap and easy and will improve your beer.

 

[btbnl]

Water: distilled water has no minerals, which will definitely adversely affect both your mash and fermentation. Calcium is especially important both for mash pH and yeast health. Tap water with a campden tablet (if it has chloramine) would be better.

Mash temperature: too cool (<140F) and you won't convert the starch in the grain to sugars, too warm (>160F) and you'll convert to unfermentable sugars, too hot (>170F) and you'll denature the enzymes and stop the conversion entirely. Your reasonable final gravity doesn't indicate the presence of lots of unfermentable sugars, but since you were direct-heating the mash it may have overheated, stopped the conversion before it was done, and leaving you with a lower than intended original gravity. Either turning off the heat and insulating the mash or keeping it in a stable ambient temperature environment (like the suggested oven, if you trust its temperature control) would work better.

 

[McKnuckle]

This thread has some misleading information about water...

If we are talking about using distilled water untouched, then obviously it's not adequate for brewing. But since it is essentially water with "nothing" in it, it as a blank slate, and it's VERY easy to work with in most cases if you add salts and/or acid to it using one of the common water profile calculators.

I brew either with 100% distilled water or distilled plus a bit of my high bicarbonate/alkaline well water, always balancing the profile and pH with minerals.

 

[russ_watters]

Thanks guys.

I did let the bottles condition for 2 weeks before refrigerating and drinking, but now that you mention it, the last bottles I drank seemed a bit better than the first. Not sure if they still condition more when refrigerated though.

Regarding water, I read in "How To Brew" that for extract brewing you can use distilled, but I'll use spring water anyway for my next try. My home water is good quality, but is ridiculously hard, so I soften it, and it says softened water is a no-no.

Also, insulating the mash for better temperature control sounds like a good idea.

 

[schokie]

I'm confused, was this an extract or all-grain batch? If extract, then the water matters very little. It will matter some, but no where near as much as if it was all-grain.

How did you bottle? How much priming sugar did you use? It will continue to condition and carb while refrigerated, but the cool temp will slow the process down some. You still want to leave them in the fridge for a couple days though as the cold will help the beer absorb the CO2.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm confused, was this an extract or all-grain batch? If extract, then the water matters very little. It will matter some, but no where near as much as if it was all-grain.

Well, maybe *I'm* confused. I bought this:
http://monsterbrew.com/Prod_MiniMonsterBookshelfBrewery-AmberAle.cfm

It does say "all grain", but I guess I was thinking that's a marketing gloss-over, since all grain is more difficult -- I thought it had more steps? I suppose I should read this book I bought....looks like extract brewing doesn't have a mash step? Or is the grain infused with malt?

In the instructions though, it says..."Mashing is the process of converting starches found in malted barley to sugars....The heat activates enzymes in the malt..."

Is this a hybrid - halfway between extract and all grain brewing?

Hmm....that could explain my issue though, I guess.

How did you bottle? How much priming sugar did you use?

I siphoned form the fermenter to a pot, with 3 tblspoons honey and 1/4 cup water in it (spring water this time). Then I siphoned from there into the bottles. Yes, the recipe called for honey, not sugar.

 

[cobrem]

That looks like all grain to me. The end product of all grain is the same as extract, but extract (liquid and dry) is concentrated and sold to folks like us to take some of the burden out of making this great stuff (the mashing and rinsing/sparging).

Distilled for extract is ok, because the producer already did the mashing for you (the all grain aspect of all grain brewing) using their water profile for the mash, which presumably includes a proper amount of minerals for whatever type of wort the producer is shooting for. With extract, you're basically reconstituting a concentrated wort when you add water.

It's tough doing all grain right out of the gate - a lot if possible points for errors to creep in. It's tough to spot where any problems come from. But at least you can work out the kinks easier with 1 gallon kits. This forum has lots of good info to help, including the advice above. If you get a chance to do an extract kit, give it a shot to see what starting with a good baseline wort gets you.

Just for another level of complexity, extract batches often come with "specialty grains" which are steeped (NOT mashed). They are simply dunked in hot water (less than 170) to rinse the sugars and flavors off, but there is no conversion of starch into sugars - no enzymes, no mashing.

And, if you got How to Brew - definitely read it. Two or three times is better - the stuff makes more sense as you do more batches.

Keep at it!

 

[PatrickGoss]

When you do your next batch, take all the advice above to heart, I didn't see anything that will steer you wrong. If you have any bottles from this batch left, sit on the for a month. Fridge temps are fine, something below 60. They will improve!

You started with an all grain batch and made something drinkable. Most of the pro's can't say that. Keep at it!

 

[schokie]

Well, maybe *I'm* confused. I bought this:
http://monsterbrew.com/Prod_MiniMonsterBookshelfBrewery-AmberAle.cfm

It does say "all grain", but I guess I was thinking that's a marketing gloss-over, since all grain is more difficult -- I thought it had more steps? I suppose I should read this book I bought....looks like extract brewing doesn't have a mash step? Or is the grain infused with malt?

Looks like an all grain kit to me as well. Congrats on going big out the gate! There really aren't many steps. We use big words like mash, sparge, and lauter tun; but in the end the big picture process is quite simple as you've discovered. Please avoid the recipe and science sub forums here, or you'll think this beer thing is way more complicated than it really is!

If you had grain kernels in the kit, that's malt. Extract will be either a powder or liquid.

I siphoned form the fermenter to a pot, with 3 tblspoons honey and 1/4 cup water in it (spring water this time). Then I siphoned from there into the bottles. Yes, the recipe called for honey, not sugar.

Honey is fine, though slightly non-standard. When it comes to bottling I subscribe to the theory that sugar is sugar and it doesn't matter what source. I'm sure others will disagree though. That amount does seem like a lot for just 1 gal. That's probably why it seems so fizzy and over carb'd. I would have used a third of that.

If your tap water isn't great, then I recommend bottled water instead of RO or distiller water. The others will require additions, which can become a little complicated. Bottled water should be fairly neutral for your purposes.

 

[lazarwolf]

Great advice in this thread. I use RO water from Walmart. its cheap and for most recipes produces great results.

 

[btbnl]

This thread has some misleading information about water...

If we are talking about using distilled water untouched ...

No "if" needed - that is exactly what the OP is using!

 

[McKnuckle]

Okay, I didn't catch that, but you're right - so let's offer a clear piece of information about it:

Distilled water is fine for brewing only if it is ameliorated with so-called brewing salts (Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, SO4). I'm sure that John Palmer talks about that on the HTB site; maybe it was just overlooked. Distilled or reverse osmosis (RO) are waters with all the minerals removed. They are not suitable for brewing until minerals are added back. (Trying to keep it simple, so won't explain why right here.)

Why would one use these waters then? Because a lot of people's tap water has minerals in concentrations that are not good for brewing, either for particular styles or in some cases, for any style at all. So starting with a blank slate and adding minerals back in a controlled fashion is often the best solution.

 

[kombat]

All this talk about "brewing minerals" - isn't that what yeast nutrient is? For some of my lagers, I've used distilled water with a teaspoon of yeast nutrient and they've turned out fine. I was under the impression that distilled water + yeast nutrient = ideal brewing water. Have I been misinformed?

 

[McKnuckle]

All this talk about "brewing minerals" - isn't that what yeast nutrient is? For some of my lagers, I've used distilled water with a teaspoon of yeast nutrient and they've turned out fine. I was under the impression that distilled water + yeast nutrient = ideal brewing water. Have I been misinformed?

I would say so... here's what yeast nutrient is:

"A mixture of diammonium phosphate and food-grade urea that nourishes yeast, ensuring that it remains healthy throughout fermentation"

You might have gotten away with distilled water and yeast nutrient because you brewed light colored beers, so the lack of residual alkalinity in distilled water wasn't a factor. Also if your lagers were like Pilsner, the classic water profile for that style is extremely low in minerals. The calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) in water generally provide yeast with similar benefits to the nutrient you added.

Brewing minerals, or salts, are Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), Sodium (Na), Chloride (Cl), and Sulfate (SO4).

There are two main reasons to care about this stuff: Mash pH and flavor. Take a look at this very brief, nicely laid out slide deck on the subject (very digestible, I swear ).

 

[russ_watters]

Great stuff, guys, thanks a lot. Since I have a three-pack now of all-grain recipes, I guess I'm all-in for at least the next few tries. But:

You started with an all grain batch and made something drinkable.

Thanks! Barely, though: After the first, I wasn't so sure, but I decided that since I brewed it, I was going to drink every damn last one, no matter what. But they did get better. I gave one to my dad, who is less of a beer connoiseur than he should be and he said it wasn't bad, just not a lot of taste. Sure -- St. Pauli Girl and Coors Lite "aren't bad" on his scale either!

Honey is fine, though slightly non-standard. When it comes to bottling I subscribe to the theory that sugar is sugar and it doesn't matter what source. I'm sure others will disagree though. That amount does seem like a lot for just 1 gal. That's probably why it seems so fizzy and over carb'd. I would have used a third of that.

Yeah, I'll probably use less in the next. There were some variations in the bottles and when I gave one to my dad, I opened both at the same time, set one down to pour the other and when went to pick the first up, it had fizzed over on to the counter. Quite a bit. It was like champagne.

 

[btbnl]

A gusher could also indicate an infection, if a bottle were less than perfectly cleaned for example.

 

[cobrem]

For a good priming sugar calculator, check out northern brewer's priming sugar calculator (my phone is locking up - would post the link, but it comes up easily with a google search). It adjusts based on style, volume, temps and type of sugar used.