first brew in a long time, tons-a q's

[fatslob]

Haven't brewed beer in probably 10 years. I bought a 50 lb sack of barley from a feed store. Got 15 sprouting as I type, gunna malt it myself. I really love dark ales really malty flavor, not so much hops. Trying to make a 5 gallon dark strong Belgian ale. Anyways, here's my recipe, if I could get some advice before I go all in on this thing:
5 gal
12lb Pilsner
1lb caramel
1lb belgian candi
6oz Hallertau hops
Safale t-58

A little more details on the ingredients. The malt since I'm doing it myself probably won't hit gravity like the calculators say, so I'll be happy with 6-8%. Belgian candi, I know there's this huge debate on whether you can make it, cus the things a secret blah blah I don't care about the argument. I crystallized some sugars using some candy making technique. When should I add? During mash, boil ferment? As far as hops go, I don't understand why people love it so much. I hate IPA's. I want the bitter, but very very far in the background. How can add hops to make it there, but hardly noticeable? I'm planning on doing a brew in a bag, real simple brew day.Thank you very much for any criticism or advice.

 

[McKnuckle]

Dissolve the candy sugar towards the end of the boil. If you want only hop bitterness but no flavor/aroma, add them all to the beginning of the boil.

I don't know your system or water volumes, but my recipe calculator suggests that 6 oz. of 3% AA Hallertau will give ~60 IBU in a 5 gallon batch. Might want to go with only half of that quantity.

 

[mongoose33]

In a typical 60-minute boil, you'd add bittering hops at 60 minutes (the beginning of the boil) and then other hops later on, including up to 0 minutes.

Hallertau isn't a hop that is particularly high in Alpha Acids, which is what the boil causes to Isomerize into bittering compounds. I'm going to guess the percentage of Alpha Acids for those hops are between 3 and 4 percent (it should say on the package).

I would consider this: put in 1 ounce at 60 minutes, 1 ounce at 20 minutes, and 1 ounce at 10 minutes. And that's it. I think 6 ounces is an awful lot to use unless you're doing a lot of dry hopping--and not with this recipe, you aren't doing that.

*********

I'm all for people trying new things, making their own malt, and so on. It's fun!

But--and you knew there was a "But" coming--you haven't brewed for 10 years. That you're asking about the recipe means to me that you're fuzzy on a lot of this. I suspect it's like riding a bicycle--you never really forget how, but you may forget where the bell is on the handlebars.

If I were you, I'd try brewing a known recipe with good ingredients and get the process down. Won't take long, you've done it before, but you have a lot of moving parts here--not sure about the hop schedule, you're malting your own grain, not sure about the recipe, weren't sure about the role alpha acids play in bittering (as well as their timing). Are you bottling? Remember how to do that? Have priming sugar?

Suppose you brew this and it doesn't turn out. What do you fix? If you have a lot of moving parts, what needs to be changed? There's too much and you can't isolate the issues.

My 2 cents. Either way, enjoy and let us know how it turns out.

 

[foolsbrew]

A little more details on the ingredients. The malt since I'm doing it myself probably won't hit gravity like the calculators say, so I'll be happy with 6-8%.

If you bought your malts from Weyermann and used a commercial sugar, assuming 70% efficency, you'd have an OG of 1.07 and ABV of 8%. I'd say it's probable you might end up with less than 6% ABV. If your own process is like 15-20% worse yield than the commercial values, you end up at <6%. On the other hand your BIAB efficency might be above 70%, it's not hard to do with a longer mash and good sparge.

I crystallized some sugars using some candy making technique. When should I add? During mash, boil ferment?

You can add it during boil. It's the most straightforward way and you can just keep your fermenter closer until bottling/kegging time.
You can also add it once fermentation begins. This means you pitch the yeast to a lower gravity wort. You can also use this mix to change the wort/beer temperature by a few degrees. Just a few degrees though, adding significantly warmer or colder mix isn't a good idea.

As far as hops go, I don't understand why people love it so much. I hate IPA's. I want the bitter, but very very far in the background. How can add hops to make it there, but hardly noticeable? I'm planning on doing a brew in a bag, real simple brew day.

If you add your hops as soon as your boil begins, you will utilize them as bitterness and notice barely any flavor or aroma. This is what you are looking for.

Some brewers prefer to use bittering hops which are cheaper hops with high AA values. Since they only utilize them as bitterness, they don't care about the flavor and aroma profile of the hop. Some think this changes the taste by noticable amounts and they will use the proilific hops even if they are boiling them for an hour.

See this chart and search for hop timing. Also search for adding hops during whirlpool and dry hopping. The latter two will contribute to aroma/flavor and isn't what you want. IPA and such styles are made by adding hops during later stages of boil, when the wort is below 175C, and dry hopping(adding them during fermentation)
https://www.chezwallis.com/pensans/images/hops_and_boil_time.gif

Consider using a hop stand or placing your hops in a bag.

6oz Hallertau hops

This is too bitter for me. Brewtarget puts this at 85 IBU(assuming 4.5% AA) while the style is rated for 20-35.

Good luck.

I would consider this: put in 1 ounce at 60 minutes, 1 ounce at 20 minutes, and 1 ounce at 10 minutes. And that's it. I think 6 ounces is an awful lot to use unless you're doing a lot of dry hopping--and not with this recipe, you aren't.

He stated he hates IPAs and doesn't like the hops to be noticeable. This hop schedule will have a clear hop taste. I'd do 1.75oz at 60 minutes and leave it at that instead.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

See this chart and search for hop timing. Also search for adding hops during whirlpool and dry hopping. The latter two will contribute to aroma/flavor and isn't what you want. IPA and such styles are made by adding hops during later stages of boil, when the wort is below 175C, and dry hopping(adding them during fermentation)
https://www.chezwallis.com/pensans/images/hops_and_boil_time.gif

Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" approach (introduced in 2018), along with the November 1, 2018 episode, suggest that pellet hops "get to work" much faster than that graph would suggest.

 

[foolsbrew]

Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" approach (introduced in 2018), along with the November 1, 2018 episode, suggest that pellet hops "get to work" much faster than that graph would suggest.

Oh I just took the first image result from google to illustrate the basic idea of the boil/bitterness relation. Thanks for the material.

 

[mongoose33]

He stated he hates IPAs and doesn't like the hops to be noticeable. This hop schedule will have a clear hop taste. I'd do 1.75oz at 60 minutes and leave it at that instead.

What he's doing with hops depends on the alpha acid content of the hops, and when he puts them in the brew. Further, hop utilization depends on the gravity of the wort; how effective will his malting be? If it was normal commercial malt, he'd have a high gravity, and the hop effect would be muted.

So any attempt to generalize from his numbers requires you to make an assumption or two. I've seen hallertau range from 2.8 to 3.8 alpha acids. Either way, that's not a lot, and it's not going to be a bitter beer.

I'm surprised you'd want to put in 1.75 (why not 2.0?) ounces at 60 minutes. This allows the alpha acids to produce the maximum bitterness, which is why I suggested adding some later where the bittering effect would be lessened. Finally, he doesn't really know what he's doing or why--and that's why he asked--and even then, what does "too bitter" mean? It means different things to different people, and so we're just swinging at the pitch and hoping we hit it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Oh I just took the first image result from google to illustrate the basic idea of the boil/bitterness relation

Brewing with undated ingredients or undated internet content can be a precursor to a bad batch of beer .

 

[foolsbrew]

I'm surprised you'd want to put in 1.75 (why not 2.0?)

Because I use metric in my head and just convert them to imperial when the person I am talking to uses imperial units. 1.75oz is a neat number in metric, 50 grams. Both of these profiles are roughly ~25 IBU, one of them just aims for bitterness-only.

I've seen hallertau range from 2.8 to 3.8 alpha acids. Either way, that's not a lot, and it's not going to be a bitter beer.

The 6oz amount added at boil would be 85 IBU. I am assuming a full boil because he says he doesn't like the hop taste. The style he is going for is rated for 20-35 IBU. He'd be over the double of the guideline.

The 4.5% AA number is the brewtarget default, I figured they had a reasonable assumption. The last pack I used was 4.4%(barth-haas export). I see three items on Amazon that list AA, they are 4.1%, 3.6% and 4.3%. https://www.amazon.com/KegWorks-Pellets-German-Hallertau-lb/dp/B00L3NBIUO/ https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Brew-Hallertau-Pellets-Green/dp/B071DQ2JTP/ https://www.amazon.com/Home-Brew-Ohio-Hallertau-Pellets/dp/B072HJ3VY2/

It's not unusual for hops to vary a lot, I am suprised you've never seen one above 3.8. In hindsight 4.5% is on the high end, but not by too much.

Finally, he doesn't really know what he's doing or why--and that's why he asked--and even then, what does "too bitter" mean?.

Too bitter has a very clear meaning for me, it's the bitterness added from the boiling hops too long. He prefers bitterness and dislikes the hop taste, I take it he'd rather boil them for longer durations. He says "How can add hops to make it there, but hardly noticeable?". Personally, hops added at 10 mins definitely keep their profile for me and they are definitely there.

Brewing with undated ingredients or undated internet content can be a precursor to a bad batch of beer .

Unless you are working in lab conditions, it's not an exact science to begin with. I doubt most everyone could tell the difference between a 60 minute and a 45 minute addition. It only really matters at the late end of the schedule.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Haven't brewed beer in probably 10 years. I bought a 50 lb sack of barley from a feed store. Got 15 sprouting as I type, gunna malt it myself. I really love dark ales really malty flavor, not so much hops. Trying to make a 5 gallon dark strong Belgian ale.

Hmmm...I am not sure I would recommend jumping back into brewing with both malting your own grain and going for a fairly complex beer (well...Dark Strongs are supposed to be big beers)...and thinking about making your own candi sugar.

I would question the recipe a bit. A lb of Crystal? How dark? No dark grains? Is your plan to get all the dark character out of the sugar? I understand some Belgian beers are just Pilsner and Dark Sugar (with very long boils?), but it is probably easier to use some specialty grains to get more character. I brewed a Dubbel based off this recipe that I enjoyed: https://beerandbrewing.com/dubbel-entendre-recipe/ (I subbed in a mix of Vienna and Munich for the Heritage Malt). Moving forward I plan to up the amount of Dark Sugar and swap out the Honey for Sugar, but the recipe is not a bad start at a mid-ABV dark and malty Belgian brew.

 

[mongoose33]

Because I use metric in my head and just convert them to imperial when the person I am talking to uses imperial units. 1.75oz is a neat number in metric, 50 grams. Both of these profiles are roughly ~25 IBU, one of them just aims for bitterness-only.

So I assume you're not buying hops by the ounce in the US. How do they market hops (in what weights) where you are?

The 6oz amount added at boil would be 85 IBU. I am assuming a full boil because he says he doesn't like the hop taste. The style he is going for is rated for 20-35 IBU. He'd be over the double of the guideline.

Yeah, it was crazy.

The 4.5% AA number is the brewtarget default, I figured they had a reasonable assumption. The last pack I used was 4.4%(barth-haas export). I see three items on Amazon that list AA, they are 4.1%, 3.6% and 4.3%. https://www.amazon.com/KegWorks-Pellets-German-Hallertau-lb/dp/B00L3NBIUO/ https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Brew-Hallertau-Pellets-Green/dp/B071DQ2JTP/ https://www.amazon.com/Home-Brew-Ohio-Hallertau-Pellets/dp/B072HJ3VY2/

It's not unusual for hops to vary a lot, I am suprised you've never seen one above 3.8. In hindsight 4.5% is on the high end, but not by too much.

Mine are coming from the Pacific Northwest in the US, so that may have something to do with it.

Too bitter has a very clear meaning for me, it's the bitterness added from the boiling hops too long. He prefers bitterness and dislikes the hop taste, I take it he'd rather boil them for longer durations. He says "How can add hops to make it there, but hardly noticeable?". Personally, hops added at 10 mins definitely keep their profile for me and they are definitely there.

What I was getting at is how bitter is too bitter for you, or for me, or for anyone? For me, a DIPA is more bitterness than I want, and then there are others for whom it's great. So when someone says "not too bitter" I am not sure what that means in relation to what I think is too bitter.

Unless you are working in lab conditions, it's not an exact science to begin with. I doubt most everyone could tell the difference between a 60 minute and a 45 minute addition. It only really matters at the late end of the schedule.

Perhaps. I've actually moved toward using hop extract as my bittering addition; it's smoother, to my taste, there's no trub associated with it, and it's actually a mite cheaper (if you make your own hop shots).

 

[foolsbrew]

So I assume you're not buying hops by the ounce in the US. How do they market hops (in what weights) where you are?

50g and 100g vacuum packs. They look like this https://www.greatexpectations.co.nz/ic/2516464938/40541.1.JPG
I prefer 50g packs because they are usually exactly 1/2th of the price of the 100g pack(no added cost) and they are easier to keep after opening one pack. Sometimes a 50g pack isn't available, 100g packs are more common.

Here is a hop site, they pretty much sell everything. https://shop.humle.se/humle/ The local sites for each country have slightly cheaper prices and usually no shipping cost.

I usually only do bittering+whirlpool+dry hop for ales. For lagers it's often only a bittering hop. I don't want to buy hops every month so I just buy a few profilic ones(citra, mosaic) and the cheapest noble hop(usually saaz) and the cheapest bittering hop. That lasts me for 6 months to a year and I keep them in the freezer. You could probably buy them by the kilogram or something, but I never looked for it as I don't have any methods or interest in keeping such a large pack around.

What I was getting at is how bitter is too bitter for you, or for me, or for anyone? For me, a DIPA is more bitterness than I want, and then there are others for whom it's great. So when someone says "not too bitter" I am not sure what that means in relation to what I think is too bitter.

I'd classify the higher end of the IBU scale for the style guide of a specific beer to be too bitter

 

[fatslob]

Hey fellers, I read everyones post and will take everything to heart. thank you for all the advice. I'm going to lower the hops to 2oz as was suggested, and try to just add most at beginning and small amounts throughout. I have also decided to lower the "belgian candi" addition to only .5 lbs. I think that if I add too much it will only increase the alcohol content to the point of overpowering the flavors that I'm trying to tweak and figure out.

The reason I have picked the belgian dark strong ale is because I want to try something somewhat simple style and I have a book which talks about these and other similar styles. Brew Like a Monk by Stan Heironymus. I got some advice once when helping a master brewer to concentrate on nailing one style down, then branch from there.

As far as the grain character (pilsner and caramel), I plan on toasting the whole lot to pilsner (160f for 3-5 hours) , then leaving the 1lb in until it gets nice and dark almost coffee colored, not sure if this is no bueno.

For the hops and bitterness, I bought what I thought was a belgian dark, but is a belgian strong golden called "Piraat", to try and see what I'm aiming for. This is the perfect amount of bitter and hop flavor if any of you guys have tried it. Maybe slightly more bitter would be perfect. Its an amazing beer but a little on the too sweet side. Have a feeling the dark malt will add bitterness as well.

My barley is coming along perfect, working on drying it now. Once I work on getting through the whole 50lb sack though, I doubt I will do this project again. It is extremely time consuming and messy. Yes it saves money but what a pain. There are ways to make it easier with equipment, but not interested. Besides, I think it'd be nice to support the local brew supply.