First Biere de Garde

[dmaxweb]

I have a liter of freshly harvested WLP1007 and an inventory of grain I'd like to use before my next order. I've never brewed a Biere De Garde but it looks like a candidate.
Here's what I'm thinking - Comments?

 

[dustinstriplin]

Biggest critique is that there isn't enough belgian/french ingredients in the recipe. This style originated on the Belgian french border and should be dry, but malty. Interestingly, it is a lot cleaner than most Belgian beers. A really cool style.

Belgian pilsner - Floor malted bohemian is preferred, but I've had success with Dingemans flagship pilsner. This will get you in the right range for the malt character, moreso than a german pilsner.

Caravienne instead of carapils and crystal 20. This will get you the toffee flavors you want. The amount of crystal that's currently in the recipe will give a medium low sweetness. I think the amount of crystal makes sense if using a black malt to darken the beer. To my tastes, I would target about 1% less crystal and remove the black malt, but that's just my taste, so take it how you will.

Carapils - Doesn't do much for the recipe. It's pretty flavor neutral and head retention is already boosted from the crystal 20.

Biscuit - around 1% to give a biscoff cookie character.

Black malt - keep it if you are trying to make the beer sweeter. Remove it if you want drier. This is just cosmetic.

Belgian candi syrup - While this is appropriate for style, more pilsner malt would help with boosting the malty character. Mashing low (148F) will get you on the lower end of the style's 1.008 - 1.016 FG range.

Yeast - Seems good.

Whirlpool hops don't make a lot of sense. The guidelines say "Little to no hop aroma (may be a bit spicy, peppery, or herbal)." Guidelines do say you can have a little more on a light example, but this is not a light example, and the current recipe would likely be high even for a light example. I'd opt for a smaller 10-20 min boil addition to get some aroma and flavor instead, adjust bittering addition accordingly. The varieties look good.

 

[dmaxweb]

Thanks for your input.
Here's the update:

Biggest critique is that there isn't enough belgian/french ingredients in the recipe. This style originated on the Belgian french border and should be dry, but malty. Interestingly, it is a lot cleaner than most Belgian beers. A really cool style.

With the exception of the Briess Black Malt, all grain is Belgian

Belgian pilsner - Floor malted bohemian is preferred, but I've had success with Dingemans flagship pilsner. This will get you in the right range for the malt character, moreso than a german pilsner.

Dingemans Pilsner

Caravienne instead of carapils and crystal 20. This will get you the toffee flavors you want. The amount of crystal that's currently in the recipe will give a medium low sweetness. I think the amount of crystal makes sense if using a black malt to darken the beer. To my tastes, I would target about 1% less crystal and remove the black malt, but that's just my taste, so take it how you will.

Belgian caravienne

Carapils - Doesn't do much for the recipe. It's pretty flavor neutral and head retention is already boosted from the crystal 20.

Deleted

Biscuit - around 1% to give a biscoff cookie character.

Added

Black malt - keep it if you are trying to make the beer sweeter. Remove it if you want drier. This is just cosmetic.

Kept

Belgian candi syrup - While this is appropriate for style, more pilsner malt would help with boosting the malty character. Mashing low (148F) will get you on the lower end of the style's 1.008 - 1.016 FG range.

Reduced candi syrup to 1#

Yeast - Seems good.

Whirlpool hops don't make a lot of sense. The guidelines say "Little to no hop aroma (may be a bit spicy, peppery, or herbal)." Guidelines do say you can have a little more on a light example, but this is not a light example, and the current recipe would likely be high even for a light example. I'd opt for a smaller 10-20 min boil addition to get some aroma and flavor instead, adjust bittering addition accordingly. The varieties look good.

Replaced whirlpool hops with late additon and reduced bittering to compensate

 

[DuncB]

Do you mean wyeast 1007 yeast.
I can't see reference to a white labs 1007 yeast.
Wyeast 1007 is good for an altbier.
Why not use a biere de garde yeast or Belgian saison yeast.

 

[dmaxweb]

Do you mean wyeast 1007 yeast.
I can't see reference to a white labs 1007 yeast.
Wyeast 1007 is good for an altbier.
Why not use a biere de garde yeast or Belgian saingredients

Yes Wyeast 1007. My typo. It's correct in the recipe list of ingredients.

As for why wyeast 1007
1. I like it
2. I have clean fresh yeast harvested from an altbier
3. Bier de Garde Yeast - German Ale?

 

[Spartan1979]

I brewed a Bier de Garde once with 1007 and it took first place in the Belgian Ales category at a large competition.

 

[dmaxweb]

Wyeast 1007 harvested from 10 gallons of 1.051 OG Altbier

12/3 harvest
The fermenter racking arm essentially leaves no beer behind.
I diluted the yeastcake with 1 liter boiled and cooled RO water.


12/7 settled in refrigerator:

 

[DuncB]

I brewed a Bier de Garde once with 1007 and it took first place in the Belgian Ales category at a large competition.

Is biere de garde a Belgian ale?
I haven't tried the 1007 in a saison/ biere de garde. But it's been great in a couple of altbiers and in a tropical stout fermented warm.

 

[dmaxweb]

Is biere de garde a Belgian ale?
I haven't tried the 1007 in a saison/ biere de garde. But it's been great in a couple of altbiers and in a tropical stout fermented warm.

Good article-
https://learn.kegerator.com/biere-de-garde/

 

[DuncB]

Good article-
https://learn.kegerator.com/biere-de-garde/

Thank you.

 

[Spartan1979]

Is biere de garde a Belgian ale?
I haven't tried the 1007 in a saison/ biere de garde. But it's been great in a couple of altbiers and in a tropical stout fermented warm.

It was Belgian and French Ales. It was a few years ago (2019).

 

[dmaxweb]

2021 BJCP Style Guidelines
Link to PDF Download:
https://www.bjcp.org/news/bjcp-releases-2021-beer-style-guidelines/
Excerpt from Table of Contents-
24. BELGIAN ALE.................................................................49
24A. Witbier..................................................................49
24B. Belgian Pale Ale.................................................. 49
24C. Bière de Garde.....................................................50
25. STRONG BELGIAN ALE.................................................... 51
25A. Belgian Blond Ale................................................ 51
25B. Saison ................................................................. 51
25C. Belgian Golden Strong Ale ..................................52
26. MONASTIC ALE ..............................................................53
26A. Belgian Single......................................................53
26B. Belgian Dubbel.................................................... 53
26C. Belgian Tripel...................................................... 54
26D. Belgian Dark Strong Ale .....................................54

 

[dustinstriplin]

Thanks for your input.
Here's the update:
View attachment 835841

With the exception of the Briess Black Malt, all grain is Belgian

Dingemans Pilsner

Belgian caravienne

Deleted

Added

Kept

Reduced candi syrup to 1#

Replaced whirlpool hops with late additon and reduced bittering to compensate

That looks tasty! I'm curious why the estimated terminal gravity is so high. As long as it get's closer to 1.010 - 1.012 range it's going to be super refreshing. Cheers!

 

[dustinstriplin]

The "Farmhouse Ales" book has a large portion of the book dedicated to biere de garde. It's a fascinating style with a lot of history.

The other half of the book is about farmhouse saison; also really cool.

https://www.brewerspublications.com...ure-and-craftmanship-in-the-belgian-tradition

 

[dmaxweb]

That looks tasty! I'm curious why the estimated terminal gravity is so high. As long as it get's closer to 1.010 - 1.012 range it's going to be super refreshing. Cheers!

It's the yeast. 1007 apparent attenuation range is 73-77. For me, over the course of years, the Beertools software calculatIon of terminal gravity is consistently within 1 point. To get it closer to 1.012 would require attenuation of 80%. Every time I've used 1007, my attenuation has been 77%.
So, I see 2 options.
Option 1 - Leave as is. The calculated terminal gravity is only 1 point outside the style guideline.
Option 2 - Use a different yeast. I can always use the 1007 for a kolsch, another altbier, or an alt style amber (Alaskan Amber clone). I currently have an absolutely wonderful Belgian Dubbel on tap made with WLP530 with attenuation range 75-80% and my actual result being 80% Probably not style correct for a BdG but sure is good in the dubbel. I dont care for Saisons at all so I don't want to go that route.

 

[Albionwood]

That high terminal gravity is a combination of the yeast and the Cara malts. IMO a Bier de Garde should be dry, so I wouldn't use those myself, but you certainly can make something like a BdG this way even if it isn't technically appropriate.
The only BdG I made was by accident, it was a Dark Saison that aged out all the Saison character and became wonderfully malty, even though it was very dry (OG 1071, FG 1008). That was made with Mangrove Jack's French Saison yeast, which others have said tends to be low in Saison character, so in this case that was a benefit. Grist was 78% Pilsner, 12% Munich dark, 3% Special-B, 3% Chocolate Wheat, and 4% dark candi syrup (homebrewed). First-wort hopped to 22 IBU with Styrian Goldings and Target. After about six months in the keg is tasted super-malty, like fresh wort without the sweetness.

 

[dustinstriplin]

Do you ever ramp up the temp towards the tail end of fermentation? It’s a good trick to dry a beer out a little more.

I would aim to dry it out more if your calculator is usually correct.

 

[dmaxweb]

Do you ever ramp up the temp towards the tail end of fermentation? It’s a good trick to dry a beer out a little more.
Standard procedure for most styles I make.

I would aim to dry it out more if your calculator is usually correct.

 

[dmaxweb]

Wyeast 1007 harvested from 10 gallons of 1.051 OG Altbier

12/3 harvest
The fermenter racking arm essentially leaves no beer behind.
I diluted the yeastcake with 1 liter boiled and cooled

12/7 settled in refrigerator:
View attachment 835919

I decanted and filled 2 pint jars. I'm getting ready to brew the biere de garde and would like to do a rough estimate yeast cell count of the harvested Wyeast 1007. I've been doing some reading and there are variety of formulas out there. My basic question is what is difference between yeast sediment and yeast solids. I'm assuming the first picture above us diluted yeast slurry. Now that I've decanted and filled the pint jars, what do I have (without considering the age of the yeast)?

Wyeast 1007 harvested from 10 gallons of 1.051 OG Altbier

12/3 harvest
The fermenter racking arm essentially leaves no beer behind.
I diluted the yeastcake with 1 liter boiled and cooled RO water.
View attachment 835920

12/7 settled in refrigerator:
View attachment 835919

I decanted and filled 2 pint jars (1 pictured below). I'm getting ready to brew the biere de garde and would like to do a rough estimate yeast cell count of the harvested Wyeast 1007 above. I've been doing some reading and there are a variety of formulas out there. My basic question is what is difference between yeast sediment and yeast solids. I'm assuming the first picture above is diluted yeast slurry. Now that I've decanted and filled the pint jars, what do I have (without considering the age of the yeast)?

 

[dmaxweb]

Assuming the 16 oz jar is the slurry and the bottom 8 oz layer (50%) is yeast solids, using the Wyeast formula below, I get an estimate of 284 billion yeast cells.
8oz = 237ml
237ml yeast solids x 1.2 billion = 284 billion cells (at harvest date)
Using Homebrew Dad's Yeast Starter Calculator there are 220 billion viable yeast cells (78%) 30 days post harvest.
For someone with experience, does this appear at all reasonable?

https://wyeastlab.com/resource/professional-yeast-harvesting-repitching/Estimates of cell counts can be made using percent yeast solids of the slurry. Percentage of yeast solids per volume of slurry can be estimated by allowing a sample to sediment under refrigeration and estimating the percent solids. Generally 40-60% yeast solids will correlate to 1.2 billion cells per mL. This will vary with the yeast strain. By using this method with every brew, a brewer can achieve consistent pitch rates batch to batch resulting in a more consistent product.

 

[dmaxweb]

Assuming the 16 oz jar is the slurry and the bottom 8 oz layer (50%) is yeast solids, using the Wyeast formula below, I get an estimate of 284 billion yeast cells.
8oz = 237ml
237ml yeast solids x 1.2 billion = 284 billion cells (at harvest date)
Using Homebrew Dad's Yeast Starter Calculator there are 220 billion viable yeast cells (78%) 30 days post harvest.
For someone with experience, does this appear at all reasonable?

https://wyeastlab.com/resource/professional-yeast-harvesting-repitching/Estimates of cell counts can be made using percent yeast solids of the slurry. Percentage of yeast solids per volume of slurry can be estimated by allowing a sample to sediment under refrigeration and estimating the percent solids. Generally 40-60% yeast solids will correlate to 1.2 billion cells per mL. This will vary with the yeast strain. By using this method with every brew, a brewer can achieve consistent pitch rates batch to batch resulting in a more consistent product.

New thread started:
Repitching Yeast Cell Count

Assuming the 16 oz jar is the slurry and the bottom 8 oz layer (50%) is yeast solids, using the Wyeast formula below, I get an estimate of 284 billion yeast cells.
8oz = 237ml
237ml yeast solids x 1.2 billion = 284 billion cells (at harvest date)
Using Homebrew Dad's Yeast Starter Calculator there are 220 billion viable yeast cells (78%) 30 days post harvest.
For someone with experience, does this appear at all reasonable?

https://wyeastlab.com/resource/professional-yeast-harvesting-repitching/Estimates of cell counts can be made using percent yeast solids of the slurry. Percentage of yeast solids per volume of slurry can be estimated by allowing a sample to sediment under refrigeration and estimating the percent solids. Generally 40-60% yeast solids will correlate to 1.2 billion cells per mL. This will vary with the yeast strain. By using this method with every brew, a brewer can achieve consistent pitch rates batch to batch resulting in a more consistent product.

Moved to New thread:
Repitching Yeast Cell Count

 

[jcech]

Yes Wyeast 1007. My typo. It's correct in the recipe list of ingredients.

As for why wyeast 1007
1. I like it
2. I have clean fresh yeast harvested from an altbier
3. Bier de Garde Yeast - German Ale?

I know this beer is suppose to age., so maybe you haven't sampled it yet, but how did the brew go. Interested in doing this myself. No mention about your water profile.